Rethinking My Sanitation Practices (Persistent Infection)

Hey HBT,
I'm currently battling a persistent infection and could use some opinions. I have a seemingly lactic infection that I would like to get rid of. Its infected 5+ of my batches now. My pale ale (30ibu) is gushing 2 weeks after bottling; IPA's (75ibu) take about 3 months.

Symptoms:
Gushing
Thin mouthfeel
Sour / Fruity aroma

I believe it is a lactic bacteria. The beer is not hazy or has a pellicle in the fermenter. However a forced wort (beer) test sampled before bottling indicated that the beer was infected before bottling.

I've had the opportunity to try a boatload of different things to eradicate the infection but so far no success.

I've moved locations (different residence entirely)
I've upgraded from BIAB partial boils to 3 vessel AG full boils
I've used fresh yeast, and fresh dry packets too
I've tried a new racking cane
I have 3 different fermenting buckets

What I've tried:
Bleach bomb; all fermenters, autosiphon, grain bag.

I was previously using a (sanitized) grain bag around my auto siphon to filter hop particles when bottling. I figured residual grain particles to be the source. The latest batch I boiled the nylon bag to try and sanitize it better. This batch used repitched yeast so this could be an inconclusive result.

I was taking OG measurements in the fermenting bucket with a sanitized hydrometer. I have stopped this practice in favor of a hydrometer testing tube.

I have been using the same plastic spoon for 3 years now. It's very stained. I leave it in the boiling wort for at least a few minutes before flame out and use it to whirlpool. Sanitary or questionable?

I have used the same immersion chiller for all batches. I toss it in 15min before flame out. I know this is common practice but is it a possible source?

My beers that are kegged do not suffer from this infection. I believe this is probably due to the constant cold storage.

Plan of Action:
New fermenting bucket, lid, airlock
New spoon (stainless?)
New (again) racking cane
No repitching yeast

Sorry for the wall 'o text. I am eager to hear any and all opinnions.

What are you using for sanitizer? How are you cooling your wort? No accusations in the question, just wanting a clearer picture.

You mentioned something about forced wort sample. What do you mean? I've experienced infections a number of times in my kegged beer so not sure what you might be having with bottling as opposed to kegging, unless your bottling technique is unsanitary for some reason. Personally, I typically bottle from the keg, rather than try bottle conditioning. But I know sanitation has been the key to solving my infection issues in the past.

AT-JeffT said:

This batch used repitched yeast so this could be an inconclusive result.

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This isn't inconclusive. If your beer was contaminated at bottling, you don't repitch the yeast.

I'd say replacing the spoon is a good idea, though. I always put my wort chiller in for the last 15 minutes of the boil because a momentary splash of boiling liquid just isn't enough.

AT-JeffT said:

I've moved locations (different residence entirely)

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That's a bit extreme!

I don't like the idea of boiling your plastic spoon, but I doubt that is the source of your infection. Nevertheless, try to find a stainless steel spoon.

You've already replaced your racking cane once, so getting a new one won't help.

Just to clarify: you've used 3 different buckets. Were they new buckets? If not, that could be the problem, though it seems unlikely.

When you sanitize your buckets, do you soak them in sanitizer, or just spray them down? Look for scratches inside them.

Also, consider replacing the gaskets around the spigots in your buckets. I had a problem with those once.

BigdogMark said:

What are you using for sanitizer? How are you cooling your wort? No accusations in the question, just wanting a clearer picture.

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No problem, I'm using star san and not rinsing of course. 1/2oz in 2.5gal. I've been using the same sanitizing tub for years now. I know that would be crazy but I'll add that to the list of sources.

BigdogMark said:

You mentioned something about forced wort sample. What do you mean? I've experienced infections a number of times in my kegged beer so not sure what you might be having with bottling as opposed to kegging, unless your bottling technique is unsanitary for some reason. Personally, I typically bottle from the keg, rather than try bottle conditioning. But I know sanitation has been the key to solving my infection issues in the past.

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I took some beer from the fermenter directly in a sterilized jar. This was to see if my beer was infected during the bottling process. After a few weeks, The beer in the sterilized jar was sour just like the bottled beer. This tells me that the beer was infected before bottling. I looked back at my notes and found I used repitched yeast. This could have been the source. I know which batch this yeast came from but I am still waiting to see if that batch is infected.

Kerin said:

This isn't inconclusive. If your beer was contaminated at bottling, you don't repitch the yeast.

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See above. I had no reason to believe that the batch I harvested from was infected. Now I know there is a good chance that it is. I'm still waiting on confirmation as it was an ipa bottled only a few weeks ago.

Kerin said:

I'd say replacing the spoon is a good idea, though. I always put my wort chiller in for the last 15 minutes of the boil because a momentary splash of boiling liquid just isn't enough.

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Yup, same practice here. I wonder if 15 is enough though.

hercher said:

That's a bit extreme!

I don't like the idea of boiling your plastic spoon, but I doubt that is the source of your infection. Nevertheless, try to find a stainless steel spoon.

You've already replaced your racking cane once, so getting a new one won't help.

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Haha, I'm not taking any chances here (the move was actually non brewing related)

Spoon is going in the trash.


I figure that the racking cane has been exposed to infected beer. I know its a bit extreme but those things have lots of difficult area's to clean. I don't want to be buying new racking cane's every time but I'm alright with buying one after new procedures have been implemented.

hercher said:

Just to clarify: you've used 3 different buckets. Were they new buckets? If not, that could be the problem, though it seems unlikely.

When you sanitize your buckets, do you soak them in sanitizer, or just spray them down? Look for scratches inside them.

Also, consider replacing the gaskets around the spigots in your buckets. I had a problem with those once.

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Yes 3 different buckets. All of varying age. They all got a bleach bath recently though. One is 3 years old and has a bit of staining. The other is under a year. The third is brand new. I haven't had a beer ferment just in the new bucket with new yeast yet.

I put the 2.5gal of star san in the bucket and work it around upper part of the bucket with a paper towel for 30sec at least two times. Just checked my buckets they don't have scratches. The old one has what I would call a rough patch though.


I bottle out of primary, so I don't use a bottling bucket/spigot.

Also I will be switching to iostar next batch.

AT-JeffT said:

Yes 3 different buckets. All of varying age. They all got a bleach bath recently though. One is 3 years old and has a bit of staining. The other is under a year. The third is brand new. I haven't had a beer ferment just in the new bucket with new yeast yet.

I put the 2.5gal of star san in the bucket and work it around upper part of the bucket with a paper towel for 30sec at least two times. Just checked my buckets they don't have scratches. The old one has what I would call a rough patch though.


I bottle out of primary, so I don't use a bottling bucket/spigot.

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If I could suggest, when you sanitize your bucket, completely fill it with your sanitizing solution, and leave it for quite some time. I've been using the same bucket for 15 years without an issue, and that is how I sanitize. Typically, as soon as I've mashed in, I fill the bucket with my solution, along with any necessary parts (transfer hoses, aerator, etc.) and let it soak. When I'm done with my boil and have started to chill the wort, I drain the bucket and let it air dry. That is typically about a 3 hour soak. It could be that you just aren't exposing your bucket etc. to the sanitizer long enough.

Last night I swabbed and plated on LMDA plates the following after (attempting) sanitizing them:
Hydrometer
Oldest (most suspect) fermenter
Inner part of auto siphon
Inside of autosiphon

They are currently incubating and will post the results.


Today I picked up the following:
IO Star
New Fermenter, lid, airlock
SS Spoon
New Tubing, racking cane
Fresh Yeast S-04

Those are all the equipment/ingredients/etc I could think that contacts the wort/beer after cooling. If anyone can think of another piece of equipment that contacts the wort after cooling (besides the chiller) please speak up.

I'm considering going back to an ice bath to eliminate my immersion chiller this next brew.

hercher said:

If I could suggest, when you sanitize your bucket, completely fill it with your sanitizing solution, and leave it for quite some time. I've been using the same bucket for 15 years without an issue, and that is how I sanitize. Typically, as soon as I've mashed in, I fill the bucket with my solution, along with any necessary parts (transfer hoses, aerator, etc.) and let it soak. When I'm done with my boil and have started to chill the wort, I drain the bucket and let it air dry. That is typically about a 3 hour soak. It could be that you just aren't exposing your bucket etc. to the sanitizer long enough.

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I will incorporate this into my next brew.

Another thought. .. Do you mill grain where you brew? The chaff is full of lacto from what I've heard. Get enough of it in the air, makes sanitizing all the more difficult.

chill with lid on?

Just a thought... How often are you removing the bucket lid during the entire fermentation?

I make sure everything is clean and sanitized (same equipment for a few years now) then put on the lid. I usually don't even think about opening the fermenter for 3 weeks or more.

OMO

bosco

BadWolfBrewing said:

Another thought. .. Do you mill grain where you brew? The chaff is full of lacto from what I've heard. Get enough of it in the air, makes sanitizing all the more difficult.

chill with lid on?

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Hah! That explains my lacto infection! Thank you- I knew milling/ having chilled wort in the same area (not at same time) is terrible practice but now I know why.

I'm not removing the lid until I bottle.

I mill in my basement. I chill outside then move into the basement to siphon to the fermenter. I chill with the lid and sanitized foil over the kettle. I put the lid of the fermenter mostly over the fermenter itself. I am going to start milling outside.

I only assume that the grain dust isn't the issue since I moved locations and still have the same infection. That said, I will still start milling outside.

All the plates showed no colonies.

AT-JeffT said:

All the plates showed no colonies.

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interesting. so often people figure they should throw away their infected gear but in your case the items you swabbed showed no colonies. would be very interesting if everyone swabbed their gear after an infection.

eastoak said:

interesting. so often people figure they should throw away their infected gear but in your case the items you swabbed showed no colonies. would be very interesting if everyone swabbed their gear after an infection.

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Agreed. With the staining my oldest fermenter has I fully expected to see some growth. Yet, I got nothing. Although, I obviously couldn't have swabbed the whole thing but I made sure to get the rougher looking areas.

I could post pics of the plates if anyone is interested but with nothing growing they all look just like agar. I still can't figure out why some shrink and others don't though.

Update:
I cracked open a bottle from a batch of wort that was split into a 1gal fermenter. I did not use the nylon filter and used different yeast. Carbonation was from carb tabs aswell.

The bottle is about 4 weeks old. It does not seem to be infected. These results combined with the negative results from the plates leads me to believe that the residual grain particles on the nylon bag was responsible for the infection. I am about 80% confident about this. Obviously future batches will yield more conclusive results but for now I believe this is a promising development.

Glad to hear you were able to isolate a sample that's not infected. That points in the right direction.

Regarding your plate chiller, I bake mine in the oven @425 for an hour periodically, say every 5 brews or when I feel it needs it. It goes in with the bread. Even after an hour of backwashing both ways, there is extra crud coming out after baking. Small hop flakes.

IslandLizard said:

Glad to hear you were able to isolate a sample that's not infected. That points in the right direction.

Regarding your plate chiller, I bake mine in the oven @425 for an hour periodically, say every 5 brews or when I feel it needs it. It goes in with the bread. Even after an hour of backwashing both ways, there is extra crud coming out after baking. Small hop flakes.

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Thanks.

I'm using a immersion chiller though. It has been going in the boil with 15min left.

Kerin said:

This isn't inconclusive. If your beer was contaminated at bottling, you don't repitch the yeast.

I'd say replacing the spoon is a good idea, though. I always put my wort chiller in for the last 15 minutes of the boil because a momentary splash of boiling liquid just isn't enough.

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+1. Repitching yeast is asking for trouble, and if you're already having an infection problem, that repitching would be the last thing I do.

I have read through your entire thread and it would appear that your problem is stemming from the reuse of your yeast. I would toss out all of your current yeast and start over with fresh.
I have heard of this problem and most of the time it is caused by the washing and reuse of some types of yeast.
As for myself, I always use fresh yeast, just for this very reason and have never experienced an infection problem.
I also always mill my grain either outside or in the garage in the colder weather, far away from where I'm actually brewing. As a small tip, if you haven't used your grain mill in awhile always run about 1/4 to 1/2 pound of grain through it and then toss this grain out. It cleans the rollers of anything that may have gathered there and insures that any crud will not end up in your mash.

reuliss said:

+1. Repitching yeast is asking for trouble, and if you're already having an infection problem, that repitching would be the last thing I do.

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Nicegirl said:

I have read through your entire thread and it would appear that your problem is stemming from the reuse of your yeast. I would toss out all of your current yeast and start over with fresh.
I have heard of this problem and most of the time it is caused by the washing and reuse of some types of yeast.
As for myself, I always use fresh yeast, just for this very reason and have never experienced an infection problem.
I also always mill my grain either outside or in the garage in the colder weather, far away from where I'm actually brewing. As a small tip, if you haven't used your grain mill in awhile always run about 1/4 to 1/2 pound of grain through it and then toss this grain out. It cleans the rollers of anything that may have gathered there and insures that any crud will not end up in your mash.

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while repitching contaminated yeast is not wise, reusing yeast is a time honored practice in brewing.

Nicegirl said:

I have read through your entire thread and it would appear that your problem is stemming from the reuse of your yeast. I would toss out all of your current yeast and start over with fresh.
I have heard of this problem and most of the time it is caused by the washing and reuse of some types of yeast.
As for myself, I always use fresh yeast, just for this very reason and have never experienced an infection problem.

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outside of the first couple of newbie batches i've never experienced an either and i reuse yeast all the time. you have good sanitation practices so you are able to stay ahead of the problem, "new" or reused yeast is not really the issue.

Lets get this thread back on track: Sanitation was my issue. Reusing yeast made my sanitation issue harder to pin point. The only debatable issue with reusing yeast is sanitation. A starter is a form of yeast reuse. White labs and wyeast grow the yeast you use from cultures for every package.

Today I purchased some 1gal paint filters from home depot. These will be used strictly for cold side filtering. They will never see grain. They seem like they will fit perfectly over an auto siphon. For a few dollars I would highly recommend them to anyone.

I am glad it appears you have figured it out- I agree the grain bag is most likely the source of contamination.

Thanks to the negative results of your swab analysis I will not discard/ re-purpose any of my 'contaminated' equipment. Because of how seriously people take contamination of their equipment (I am one) and how often I've read about retiring old, dubious, or infected fermenters. Or even for those thinking about doubling up on equipment to make sours. I feel like this thread is sticky worthy. Put a tag on the title "save your $ do not throw away your buckets!"

IMHO your efforts have hammered a nail or two in the "bugs vs. brewery cleaners" debate coffin.

Update:
It has been a few months in the bottles for a beer that was bottled with a boiled bag. No signs of infection. It appears that the grain bag as filter was the definitive cause. Like 99% of all homebrew infections mine was caused by an item not getting properly cleaned before contact with wort/beer on the cold side.

Hopefully others can learn from my endeavor and avoid using bags that have seen grain as siphon filters.

AT-JeffT said:

Update:
It has been a few months in the bottles for a beer that was bottled with a boiled bag. No signs of infection. It appears that the grain bag as filter was the definitive cause. Like 99% of all homebrew infections mine was caused by an item not getting properly cleaned before contact with wort/beer on the cold side.

Hopefully others can learn from my endeavor and avoid using bags that have seen grain as siphon filters.

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I'm so glad you finally found the problem. Nothing worse than going though the time and expense to brew up a great beer just to have it trashed by a infection.
Take note fellow brewers...everything, without exception, that comes in contact with the wort after cooling MUST be throughly sanitized. Thanks for sharing something we all need to look out for.

I think we all appreciate the effort you've gone to in order to identify and document the cause of this. It's stuff like this that helps us get away from the witchcraft that is traditional thinking, and on to brewing great beers!

UPDATE:
I've brewed tons of new styles I haven't brewed before and all have come out great. However, I brewed the recipe I've been having issues with and had the same issues. Tasted great going into the bottle then infection-like flavors showed up 2 days after it was fully carbonated. To clarify, it tasted fine at different points before it was fully carbonated. It went from fine to bad in 2 days.

I did some research on the wyeast equivalent of WLP002 (WY1968) and found these articles:
this article and this HBT thread.

Both talk about a cider / mild infection off flavor that appears after bottling.

I believe that my 'infections' were just an odd issue with WLP002/1698. It develops cidery flavors when bottle conditioned and tends to attenuate further in the bottle. (due to its incredible flocculation)

I have the problem recipe fermenting and to be kegged in 5 days. I'll be posting back here to report if the issue has been solved.

AT-JeffT said:

UPDATE:
I've brewed tons of new styles I haven't brewed before and all have come out great. However, I brewed the recipe I've been having issues with and had the same issues. Tasted great going into the bottle then infection-like flavors showed up 2 days after it was fully carbonated. To clarify, it tasted fine at different points before it was fully carbonated. It went from fine to bad in 2 days.

I did some research on the wyeast equivalent of WLP002 (WY1968) and found these articles:
this article and this HBT thread.

Both talk about a cider / mild infection off flavor that appears after bottling.

I believe that my 'infections' were just an odd issue with WLP002/1698. It develops cidery flavors when bottle conditioned and tends to attenuate further in the bottle. (due to its incredible flocculation)

I have the problem recipe fermenting and to be kegged in 5 days. I'll be posting back here to report if the issue has been solved.

Click to expand...

will this be the first time you keg? i liked my beer much better after i started kegging, it just seemed to stay fresher for longer. this could just be a perception but i stuck with kegs anyway, no more bottling (except for sours).

eastoak said:

will this be the first time you keg? i liked my beer much better after i started kegging, it just seemed to stay fresher for longer. this could just be a perception but i stuck with kegs anyway, no more bottling (except for sours).

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No, been kegging for quite a while now. I don't have a preference either way. I would assume it does stay fresh longer as it is stored cold. I was/am dead set on figuring out my bottling issues though. I do believe it is the WLP002/1968 that is the issue. I've bottled other stuff since and its been fine. Most recently, a Kolsch which is the lowest IBU beer I've made and it turned out great out of the bottle.

Welp, Its been a nearly a year of trying to figure this out. I have finally figured it out.

The solution was simply a pure oxygen set up.

The issue was under attenuation due to under oxygenation. For whatever reason shaking the bucket fermentors wasn't giving me enough oxygen for healthy fermentations. Upon bottling the small amount of oxygen pick up was enough to restart fermentation in the bottles, thus overcarbonating the beer usually to double normal volumes.

Trouble shooting process:

I first confirmed that the problem wasn't bacteria/infection related. A keg that was allowed to get warm for weeks exhibited the cidery/tart/overcarbonated off flavor. I relieved the pressure from the keg for multiple days. Eventually the tartness disappeared and the beer tasted as it should(a first!), albeit a little old.

Knowing now that the issue was overcarbonation due to reattenuation in the bottles, I could explore the factors that effect fermentation. At this time I also started incubating bottles in warm rooms of the house (~80F) to force any possible overcarbonation issues. I tried the olive oil method of "oxygenation" and found this to solve my issues. I purchased an oxygenation system shortly after that and have been issue free since.