Why is it when I listen to Jamil and John, they seem to say...

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tamoore

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....That they can go from brew day to finished beer (with kegging) in like 10 days, but when I come here, you guys say that it's a month or two before it's 'done'?

I just listened to a Brew Strong episode, where Jamil made it sound like he has brewed some of the 'Can You Brew It?' beer rather quickly. Like, 4-5 days of primary fermentation, 2 or 3 days after to clean up, and then it's done.

What am I missing, and why the large disparity of opinions on the topic?

How long do the general microbreweries age their beer? It would seem to me that they don't have the resources to keep stuff in holding tanks for a month or two, and I bet they're motivated to get it down the road as soon as it is possible.

What say you?
 
It really depends on the style of beer. Wheat beers are pretty quick to the glass. I spoke with the head brewer at Summit a few weeks back, and he said ~14 days for most of their beers.
 
If you leave it in the fermenter for 7 days, you can transfer to a keg, force carbonate with 30 PSI and shake the living hell out of it and be drinking in a week. That's not to say that you're drinking the beer at it's peak of flavor, just that you're drinking it fast.

Cheers,
Glenn
 
Thanks for the info, guys.


Glenn,
Jamil is winning awards with his beer. Do you suppose he's just taking the piss when he says that he brews these things in a week to 10 days? Or, do you think his ribbon winning beers would be substantially better after a month? Is he just trying to keep his award winning secrets to himself in order to maintain competitive advantage?

I'm seriously puzzled by the whole thing.
 
As you listen to Jamil's shows more, you'll find he doesn't do competitions anymore and when he did, he'd normally just go to his beer fridge, pull something (often brewed LONG LONG ago) and submit it. So yes, he knows about aging.

Also, the schedule of CYBI pretty much requires they drink the beer green to keep up and they very often mention that the beer tastes "young" and will be better with age.

No real mystery in my opinion.
 
If you aerate well, pitch enough yeast, and have stable fermentation temperatures in the yeasts range then you can keg in 10 days. Depending on the beer, something like a simple pale ale, it will be ready to drink by the time it carbs. Something like a stout with roasted malts, black patent, etc will probably take a few more weeks to blend.
 
Have a read here it's a long read but well worth it. If you start to use fining agents, filter, keg, brew simple beers, cold crash, pitch the proper amounts of yeast, etc... ...you can have a pretty quick turn around time on your beers.
 
This is one of the issues that I think about all the time. I just can't believe that serious craft brewers (and famous homebrewers such as JZ) are knowingly putting out an inferior product that they know will be better in a month.

With that in mind, and through my own trials, I have come up with the following things that reduce the aging time required. I have no scientific fact, just my observations. Here they are:

1) Having the proper amount of properly prepared yeast.
2) Maintaining precise temperature control over the fermentation.
3) Cold crashing (really cold and for awhile)

I've found that the first two points seem to drastically improve that first sample (for FG readings) and make it much closer to a finished beer. The third really seems to clarify and 'drop out' anything that I know I don't want (and will drop out eventually anyway).

For a Kolsch I did recently, I did 6 days in primary fermentation after pitching a healthy amount of yeast. Then, I dropped it to 32 degrees for another week. After that, I kegged it and let it carb. It was probably a total of 3 weeks from grain to glass, but it was certainly not green in the least bit.

EDIT: Good link wyzazz.
 
I guess I've listened to more of his shows because he's said many many times that he primaries for 4 weeks (when asked in general). Sure there are lighter beers that don't need all that.
 
I guess I've listened to more of his shows because he's said many many times that he primaries for 4 weeks (when asked in general). Sure there are lighter beers that don't need all that.

I've been picking and choosing what to listen to, as I'm a newbie for sure.. I've probably heard maybe 10 to 12 episodes in total, so I'm 'green' when it comes to it.

But, I'll have to say, in the ones I've heard (10 to 12 total episodes, most recent one was on 'packaging' - and this did come up), they seem to advocate a quick-to-bottle approach being OK. But, I am pulling this from a limited sampling of their shows, for sure.
 
I've been picking and choosing what to listen to, as I'm a newbie for sure.. I've probably heard maybe 10 to 12 episodes in total, so I'm 'green' when it comes to it.

But, I'll have to say, in the ones I've heard (10 to 12 total episodes, most recent one was on 'packaging' - and this did come up), they seem to advocate a quick-to-bottle approach being OK. But, I am pulling this from a limited sampling of their shows, for sure.


Listen to this one on bottling/kegging. IIRC John Palmer talks briefly about keeping your beer on the yeast for 4 weeks or so.
 
Listen to this one on bottling/kegging. IIRC John Palmer talks briefly about keeping your beer on the yeast for 4 weeks or so.

That's the last one I did listen to. I must have missed that bit. I'll listen again, and pay closer attention. I'm wondering if they think feel it can be done quicker, but will default to a 'safer' longer period when teaching others how to do it?

I dunno...


I'm kegging an IPA tonight, and this has been its schedule.

12 days before dry hopping. (Hit the FG at 1.01, 5.5% ABV).
Then dry hopped in primary for 4 days.
Then cold crashed in primary for 4 days.
Will probably put it in the keg, force carb, and sample once it settles
If I like it, I'll drink it. If it tastes a little green, I'll wait another week. The sample I tasted before dry hopping was really good. I'll report on how it goes.
 
I've been picking and choosing what to listen to, as I'm a newbie for sure.. I've probably heard maybe 10 to 12 episodes in total, so I'm 'green' when it comes to it.

But, I'll have to say, in the ones I've heard (10 to 12 total episodes, most recent one was on 'packaging' - and this did come up), they seem to advocate a quick-to-bottle approach being OK. But, I am pulling this from a limited sampling of their shows, for sure.

I don't think JZ ever advocated a super quick brew-to-bottle schedule. They were talking about when the beer could be packaged (i.e. when FG had been reached and was stable). I never heard him say it was a good/better/best way of doing things -- just that after 10 days you have beer, and if you want to start drinking it, you can.
 
One thing for me is the question of if the aging needs to be on the yeast or not. Personally, I think not. This is why my method is to do 1-2 weeks primary (that's what hydrometer's are for), 1 week cold crash, and then 2 weeks in the keg carbing. After those 4-5 weeks, its usually pretty much delicious.
 
Thanks for the info, guys.


Glenn,
Jamil is winning awards with his beer. Do you suppose he's just taking the piss when he says that he brews these things in a week to 10 days? Or, do you think his ribbon winning beers would be substantially better after a month? Is he just trying to keep his award winning secrets to himself in order to maintain competitive advantage?

I'm seriously puzzled by the whole thing.

Do you think Jamil is entering 10 day old beer in competitions?


I don't.
 
One thing for me is the question of if the aging needs to be on the yeast or not. Personally, I think not. This is why my method is to do 1-2 weeks primary (that's what hydrometer's are for), 1 week cold crash, and then 2 weeks in the keg carbing. After those 4-5 weeks, its usually pretty much delicious.

It really depends on your processes. Leaving the beer on the yeast longer can clean up a lot of things (diacetyl, etc). So if your processes aren't great, yeah, yeast matters.
 
If you listen to enough of his podcasts, you'll also hear him say to make sure you give the beer enough time before racking. You'll hear him say that unless the beer has cleared it isn't ready to rack yet.

On the other hand, if you read around these forums enough, you'll come across threads like this one:https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/aging-beer-facts-myths-discussion-84005/

My point is that there is no correct answer. If you want the best beer possible, time is almost always on your side. If you need to have a taste-able finished product in time to produce a radio show, that can be done too.
 
It really depends on your processes. Leaving the beer on the yeast longer can clean up a lot of things (diacetyl, etc). So if your processes aren't great, yeah, yeast matters.

Yes, I agree with that of course. But I'm talking about a couple days (it only takes 2-3 days at 65+ for a diacetyl rest from what I hear) versus 3-5 weeks like some people mention. I always give it 3 days after I'm sure its done (with a hydrometer) to rest. I also raise the temp to about 72 for this since I normally ferment at 62-68 depending on the yeast.
 
Don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but JZ's also a major proponent of pitching the "proper" amount of yeast, which for him seems like it's a lot more than most homebrewers usually pitch. I'd imagine that would not only reduce lag time but also result in a cleaner fermentation (i.e. perhaps a bit less aging necessary for the beer to be cleaned up).
 
From the times I have listened to JZ and John, comparing MOST home brewers to them is like comparing a brew pub to BMC, not in the quality, but in the equipment and experiance they have. JZ is working off a very good ystem that many of us dream about and will never have, and he has brewed hundred or thousands of batches on the system. He has this dialed in. Also, it comes up that he is quite anal about doing things, and this is not a bad thing. Everything is always done top notch, from yeast pitching, temperature controll, sanitization, etc., and if there is a fault it goes down the drain. I think if we all had the skill and experiance, and the system that those guys work with, we all could cut a few days off our brewing schedule.
 
1) Having the proper amount of properly prepared yeast.
2) Maintaining precise temperature control over the fermentation.
3) Cold crashing (really cold and for awhile)

Bingo. Every pub is serving beer younger than 28 days, usually 21 days. You guys can all call up Vinny and tell him how much better his beer would be if he brewed like you. When he gets done laughing he might calmly explain that your process sucks if your beers don't taste clean a few weeks after brewing.
 
From the times I have listened to JZ and John, comparing MOST home brewers to them is like comparing a brew pub to BMC, not in the quality, but in the equipment and experiance they have. JZ is working off a very good ystem that many of us dream about and will never have, and he has brewed hundred or thousands of batches on the system. He has this dialed in. Also, it comes up that he is quite anal about doing things, and this is not a bad thing. Everything is always done top notch, from yeast pitching, temperature controll, sanitization, etc., and if there is a fault it goes down the drain. I think if we all had the skill and experiance, and the system that those guys work with, we all could cut a few days off our brewing schedule.

Unless you think something is happening on the hot side that makes Jamil's beers ready faster than yours, I'm not sure you can blame his B3 sculpture.

Jamil ferments in carboys in a fridge. There isn't much of a barrier preventing any of us from acquiring his fermentation technology.
 
Bingo. Every pub is serving beer younger than 28 days, usually 21 days. You guys can all call up Vinny and tell him how much better his beer would be if he brewed like you. When he gets done laughing he might calmly explain that your process sucks if your beers don't taste clean a few weeks after brewing.

Poor example. The bottle of Supplication I had last night was 16 months old (and fantastic.) ;)
 
Do you think Jamil is entering 10 day old beer in competitions?


I don't.

I don't know, but I know my local breweries are making great beers in two weeks. It's a confusing topic for sure, and I'm new - . As I progress, I'm sure I'll be waiting longer and longer between batches....

Thanks for the input!
 
I don't know, but I know my local breweries are making great beers in two weeks.

And your local breweries can probably control mash and fermentation temperatures to 1/10 of a degree. They also pitch MUCH more yeast than most of us, and aerate much better.
 
And your local breweries can probably control mash and fermentation temperatures to 1/10 of a degree. They also pitch MUCH more yeast than most of us, and aerate much better.

Probably. I'm just tryin' to figure it all out.

Having said that, let me ask:

What about extra time in the 'bucket' heals non optimal mash and fermentation temps, under pitched yeast, or incomplete aeration?

Does it all come down to extra working time for the die-hard yeast that make it to the end?
 
I'm drinking my first Irish Ale right now and i'm very happy with how it tastes. This style of beer got me interested in homebrewing a few mths ago at a brewpub in Newfoundland. I love Yellowbelly's Fighting Irish. :) I did however brew a few hundred brewkits when i was a teenager for money reasons.

Anyhow this was my disastrous process.

- 10 days in primary
- Racked to corny keg and cooled for 12 hours or so at 5C.
- Tried the shake method using 30PSI and tried to dispense the beer but due to hops plugged up pickup tube. Cleaned tube and tried again. Plugged again.
- Next day racked to carboy, cleaned pickup tube and racked the beer again in the keg. Where it sits right now.

The beer i'm drinking is from the little bit i purposely left in the carboy and i like it very much and it actually has a head.

Lets hope i can get it to dispense when i have these few gone! I re-shook the keg again at 30PSI.
 
Does it all come down to extra working time for the die-hard yeast that make it to the end?

When yeast is working in an imperfect environment, it often produces all sorts of intermediate chemicals between sugar and alcohol. It eats the easiest stuff first.

If it hasn't flocced out, its still eating.
 
To me it sounds like you assume 'in the keg' means "ready to drink at peak flavor"...and that's not the case.

I've listened to a lot of Jamil Show and I don't get the impression he rushes from brew day to drinking time, but rather kegs and lets it age there to keep primary and secondary open for more batches.
 
If you listen to Can You Brew It they often complain that they rushed the beers to have them done in time for the shows and that they'd have been better if they had started earlier and given them more time.
 
If you listen to Can You Brew It they often complain that they rushed the beers to have them done in time for the shows and that they'd have been better if they had started earlier and given them more time.

Ok, that's fair.

I haven't listened to that show, but for one episode.

The IPA that I kegged tonight is pretty damn good, however. ;)

It's about 19 days from brew date and is, IMO, pretty tasty. I'm going to gauge its progress as it ages, and see if I can sense its maturity. I'd be more than happy with the flavor I have right now, however. I can only hope it gets better over the next few weeks.

Thanks for the replies in this thread, everyone. They are appreciated! :)
 
I think it depends heavily on the style of the beer, the original gravity and the brewer's skill. A low gravity (1.050 or less) pale ale/bitter brewed well - follow all of the advice above about sanitation, pitching, and fermentation temp control - will be at its best in 2 to 3 weeks. That's why a beer like Summit EPA is on tap in a bar and tasting great in 2 weeks. So, ten or so days in primary, keg, carb up and cold crash for a couple days, and enjoy. If you've been aging this type of beer for more than a month, you'll be surprised at how good it tastes in a couple weeks.
 
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