Fusion weld? OR Wire weld?

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willynilly

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Not sure what you're asking. ALL welding, by definition, fuses the pieces being welded.
 
There is a difference between running a bead with a wire, and pure fusion welding, where you use no wire, no filler.

Using the wire means a longer weld time, more heat, more warping. Using wire, the filler, is also typically a more superficial weld and is easier to break than a pure fusion weld that only uses material from the two pieces being welded.

Just curious what people are using on their SS stands, and why.
 
The term for joining material with the heliarc (tig) or oxy fuel process without adding filler material is "autogenous" welding (ö′täj·ə·nəs ′weld·iŋ). Adding filler metal should speed the process up a bit and the welds themselves should be stronger that the ones without filler.

That being said, you finished structure is only as strong as the thinnest cross section. Which if your using square tube and adding filler should be the heat affected zone adjacent to the weld.

If your making an autogenous weld it will be the weld itself, this is due to the fact they will be somewhat undercut (caused by melting without additional material) and weakened from the heat.
 
Hrmm, my welder friend has been doing SS welding for 20 years and said that the no filler weld was a deeper weld and would be stronger. He also said that using the wire creates MORE heat and more warping... hmm

His rationale for the NON filler weld being stronger was that it joined the two pieces deeper than the filler weld would go.

I dunno, I think I can park my car on it in either case... just curious.

60' of SS tubing $100
Welding FREE
HF cleaning FREE
Casters $100

Not bad for a $200 stand!
 
How about a pic of the welds?

IMO, you are right and you are wrong. Adding wire or filler to a weld does not in any way make it superficial. If that were the case, then TIG or resistance welding would be the only methods used. Why would any other method be needed? Ok, I guess there are some other like blast welding and the such.... A fusion weld could also be looked upon as a cold weld. There is nothing to give it strength. Depending on the thickness and whether or not you fuse the back of the joint or not. You can or can not also fuse all the way through the material in question. Several factors involved here. A fusion weld is also very prone to having undercut in the weld ment which is a weak spot.

In any case, a weld is only as strong as the thinnest material. No need in putting a 1/2" fillet on 18 gauge material. IME, the process makes a big difference in the amount of warping seen in the project. For example, I see less warping in a TIG weld vs a MIG weld. This is based on not properly tacking the part to compensate for the heat input. Also, TIG welding in general is a much slower process then say MIG. You inadvertently put more heat into the part then just MIG welding it, which means you get much more even heating in the weld area hence the less warping. Anyone who has been around the different welding processes can vouch for the much more intense heating of the material being welded in the TIG process. At least that is my basic look into the process. You also need to look at how the project is welded. One weld can negate the last weld if done right and in the right order. One can also preload a beam or member to compensate for the weld shrinkage.

I would much rather have a weld WITH filler material then one without filler. This is one reason why there are weld specs that must be followed in any given drawing or spec called out by an engineer. Fusion welding in a sanitary environment is done more so because of the sanitary requirement. However this is also why the welds are polished off. That fancy finish on SS is not for looks. It is too meet FDA requirements on harbor-age of bacteria.
 
There are photos above. This place ONLY does sanitary welds/cleaning... which is how I got the HF cleaning for free.
 
GreenMonti said:
I can't see the welds in your pics above.
Click to expand...

The third photo shows the welds too, but the HF makes them blend in with the rest of the SS, that photo has always been there. There are 3 welds on the third photo, but HF does a job on them.
 
willynilly said:
The third photo shows the welds too, but the HF makes them blend in with the rest of the SS
Click to expand...

That and there is a end cap in the way.

What wall thickness is your tubing?
Do the welds look or feel like they are lower then the rest of the mating surfaces? What I mean is if there was a straight edge placed across the weld is it flush or does the weld sink down.
 
1/16" wall
Slightly lower (as stated no filler)


Think it will support a couple 15gal. Blichmans?
 
willynilly said:
Hrmm, my welder friend has been doing SS welding for 20 years and said that the no filler weld was a deeper weld and would be stronger. He also said that using the wire creates MORE heat and more warping... hmm
Click to expand...


Ask your friend why there is other welding process that incorporate filler?

Also adding filler material cools down a weld puddle, it doesn't increase the heat. It creates more mass too shrink.

Please understand i am not in any way giving you shi!. You asked and I am just talking with you about it.
 
HBT is all about giving ppl shi!, I know this already. Have you read the threads here?

Well, he said that using the filler would increase the time on weld, which would then increase the heat and cause more warping. I am not a welder, he has been at this company for 20 years building stands and everything else under the sun. I dunno... it was free. Will it hold a couple Blichs?

Did I get hosed on my $200 investment?
 
willynilly said:
1/16" wall
Slightly lower (as stated no filler)


Think it will support a couple 15gal. Blichmans?
Click to expand...


That's the under cut that was mentioned. If the inside wasn't purged out when welded, then the inside is sugared and not a good clean weld all the way through ruining his idea's about the weld. I would just about bet that there is a sugar mess inside with a line right down the center of it cause the two didn't join due to a lack of gas. That is if it was welded hot enough to burn through. Being SS the welds look hot enough to go through the .062 wall tubing you got. Just for kicks do a test weld without a back gas and see what the back side looks like. You should see what I am talking about.

Again I am not attacking you. Just telling it like I see it. A lot gets lost in third party translation.
 
Okay, I will scrap the stand and start over.

I havent heard anything positive in this entire thread. Thanks... I will just sell it for the $200 I have into it.

If I can get that.
 
GM, nice to see you show up.

If you welding 304 SS and add 308L filler to base material aren't the welds stronger than a autogenouts weld, because the over alloying effect of the 308L being added?
 
willynilly said:
HBT is all about giving ppl shi!, I know this already. Have you read the threads here?

Well, he said that using the filler would increase the time on weld, which would then increase the heat and cause more warping. I am not a welder, he has been at this company for 20 years building stands and everything else under the sun. I dunno... it was free. Will it hold a couple Blichs?

Did I get hosed on my $200 investment?
Click to expand...

I doubt highly you got hosed. I also would bet you wont ever have or see any problem with your stand. Enjoy it, and deal with any issue should one ever arise when that time comes. For now, just go with it. Relax. You asked and I am chiming in. Nothing more. I am just giving the specifics of a weld like the title of the thread implies. At least to me.
 
For what you're using it for it will be fine no matter what process you use. i personally prefer to mig weld all of my stuff just because i know it wont break then. tig welding with filler would be fine as well. i would think that if you fused it, it would be ok yet. Just make sure to check for cracks. there is plenty of cross pieces on that car and i wouldnt worry too much about the warping at all.

hope that helps a bit. i have been welding similar products with the same square tubing for the last 10 years with the company i work for.
 
Willynilly, your stand will be fine, and your welds look sound. With the photos you provided I don't believe there will be any problem supporting the weight of your kettles. We welding "nerds" may have hijacked your thread in attempt to answer your question(s). Just take a look @ this thread, (22 pages) we ended up with when discussing sanitary welds, but as many other threads it was a great learning experience for me. Sorry, no offense intended.

RDWHAHB....:mug:
 
WillyNilly... I started the thread bad69z referenced. He, GreenMonti and several others offered tremendous input and helped me more than I could have imagined.
I'm not a weldor and can't offer much input but to tell you that you have a couple of great resources in these guys chiming in on your project.

RDWHAHB.
 
No Worries bro, you don't need sanitary welds on your stand anyway...keep your wort in your kettles. You wil be fine. 200 seems like a great price. RDWHAHB or two ;) and yes im sure your stand will hold your Blingman pots just fine.
 
willynilly said:
HBT is all about giving ppl shi!, I know this already. Have you read the threads here?

Well, he said that using the filler would increase the time on weld, which would then increase the heat and cause more warping. I am not a welder, he has been at this company for 20 years building stands and everything else under the sun. I dunno... it was free. Will it hold a couple Blichs?

Did I get hosed on my $200 investment?
Click to expand...

You paid someone for a service and they provided. When others (who are also welders and engineers) don't tell you the same thing or contradict what your guy did or said, you get upset. Don't ask for feedback if you don't want it.

Personally, I think the stand is beautiful. I don't think you'll have any problems with it. But, just like it is hard to get welding advice on the forum, it is ever harder to get engineering advice (Will it hold a couple of Blichs?) I'm an engineer and can't tell you that for sure from 3 small photos uploaded with a phone. I can say it probably will, but you can't say for sure. If you're so worried about it, load test it when you get home. Evenly distribute 1000 lbs of sand/gravel/whatever on the stand and let it sit there for 10 minutes. Shake it around a little bit with all that weight on there. If nothing breaks, you just loaded tested it to 3X the operating load. That should give you some security that a vat of boiling wort is not going to tip over on you.

If you don't want the thing, send it over and I take the problem off your hands. From what I've seen, the advice given in this thread is true. Autogenous welds are typically weaker. But it is all relative. Weld metal is very strong. Engineers and fabricators tend to overweld things to give them security. Your welder is right: welding with filler is more time consuming that just fusing everything with the torch. But, welding with filler is much stronger--it all comes down to cross-section.

I don't think you got ripped off. I think you got a smokin deal--wished I could find one like that. Go enjoy your stand and make some beer.:mug:
 
So I kept it...

My all SS (down to the last screw and nut) Brutus "20".

*9000W Blichman Boil Kettle

*9000W RIMS heater

*15G Blichman MLT with "AutoSparge"

*(2) LG 3-MD-HC pumps

*BCS wireless control (is it catching on!)

*"The Brain", a 12" x 12" x 6" self contained control box that controls all brew functions, processes and temperatures. It contains 10 SSRs, 8 heatsinks, distribution block, grounding bar and fuses. Also houses the BCS 460 web based controller as well as the wireless bridge to provide wireless control. Utilizes a 105 CFM 220VAC muffin fan for ventilation.

I give you, DIGIBREW...

In testing (ran all components on test stand before mounting to SS stand) it has been found to bring 12 gallons of 50F water to a rolling boil in 33 minutes! The LG pumps will pump through the current plumbing configuration at a rate of approx. 6 gallons/min.









 
Very nice Willy, FWIW, I think you could likely put 10 more kettles on that stand without issue, unless of course you plan on racing it around a dirt track.:mug:
 
Well I had time today to crunch a few numbers, I like numbers.

This is all based on a 10g batch with a 13 gallon pre-boil volume. Starting water temp is 65F. Grain bill is 30 pounds and the assumed kettle loss to trub is ONE gallon.

17 gallons to start at 65F needs to be heated to 170F (some for strike, some for the "sparge".

142 pounds of water raised 110F is 15,620 BTUs of energy

During the mash, the RIMS heater will run on and off, but how much is hard to determine. So for now I am ignoring the "maintain temp" power usage.

After the mash and "sparge" I will have to boil 13 gallons (3 gallons lost to absorption).

109 pounds of water raised from 160F to 210F requires 5,450 BTUs of energy

Now that it is boiling, I want to boil off about 1.5 gallons, or 13 pounds of water.

13 pounds of water requires an additional 12,610 BTUs of energy to boil off

Through use of my previous electric kettle I observed approximately 95% eff. when heating with electric (this is because of heat loss through kettle walls for example)

So ignoring the heat loss during the mash and the subsequent RIMS heater firing during the 60 minute mash (I cannot quantify this very well) it will take about 33,680 BTUs of energy to complete the entire brewing session from a COLD start, to finish.

Each kWh for me runs about $.12-$.14.

Each kW is equal to 3412 BTUs

This means that I will need to consume 9.9 kW to complete the brewing session, sorta... Remember this is assuming that electric is 100% eff. and it is not due to radiant heat losses. So basically I need to increase this by 5% to get my actual electric requirement. I need to consume 10.4 kW, at a cost of approximately $1.25 to $1.46 for a complete brew session.

This is asked a lot... how long will it take to heat though?

11 gallons of strike water from 65F to 170F will take 20 minutes

13 gallons of boil volume from 160F to 210F (boiling) will take 12 minutes

If the system is able to raise the temp. of my garage 20F (which it cannot) due to heat loss:

3600cu feet of air
Multiplied by 20F temp. delta
Multiplied by .018BTUs per cu. foot to raise 1F
This would indicate a heat loss of 1,296 BTUs during the 60 minute mash, which is only about .4kW or $.06
 
Willy, that looks great! I also like your co$t calculations. I look forward to seeing your rig completed.


Cheers...:mug:
 
willynilly said:
Well I had time today to crunch a few numbers, I like numbers.

This is all based on a 10g batch with a 13 gallon pre-boil volume. Starting water temp is 65F. Grain bill is 30 pounds and the assumed kettle loss to trub is ONE gallon.

17 gallons to start at 65F needs to be heated to 170F (some for strike, some for the "sparge".

142 pounds of water raised 110F is 15,620 BTUs of energy

During the mash, the RIMS heater will run on and off, but how much is hard to determine. So for now I am ignoring the "maintain temp" power usage.

After the mash and "sparge" I will have to boil 13 gallons (3 gallons lost to absorption).

109 pounds of water raised from 160F to 210F requires 5,450 BTUs of energy

Now that it is boiling, I want to boil off about 1.5 gallons, or 13 pounds of water.

13 pounds of water requires an additional 12,610 BTUs of energy to boil off

Through use of my previous electric kettle I observed approximately 95% eff. when heating with electric (this is because of heat loss through kettle walls for example)

So ignoring the heat loss during the mash and the subsequent RIMS heater firing during the 60 minute mash (I cannot quantify this very well) it will take about 33,680 BTUs of energy to complete the entire brewing session from a COLD start, to finish.

Each kWh for me runs about $.12-$.14.

Each kW is equal to 3412 BTUs

This means that I will need to consume 9.9 kW to complete the brewing session, sorta... Remember this is assuming that electric is 100% eff. and it is not due to radiant heat losses. So basically I need to increase this by 5% to get my actual electric requirement. I need to consume 10.4 kW, at a cost of approximately $1.25 to $1.46 for a complete brew session.

This is asked a lot... how long will it take to heat though?

11 gallons of strike water from 65F to 170F will take 20 minutes

13 gallons of boil volume from 160F to 210F (boiling) will take 12 minutes

If the system is able to raise the temp. of my garage 20F (which it cannot) due to heat loss:

3600cu feet of air
Multiplied by 20F temp. delta
Multiplied by .018BTUs per cu. foot to raise 1F
This would indicate a heat loss of 1,296 BTUs during the 60 minute mash, which is only about .4kW or $.06
Click to expand...

Just curious to which Avon your in? If it is Colorado then your water will boil at like 198*.
 
Hello, New member here. Have brewed 8 batches in 12 years, but weld stainless every day. I am a fabricator in a food factory (Kraft Foods).

First, I am sure your welds are plenty strong enough for what you are doing.
Second, GTAW or TIG or Heli-arc (what you call fusion) welding CAN produce a stronger weld than wire welding in many cases. The reason for this is that with Tig welding, the heat zone is more concentrated, resulting in better penetration. Wire welding is terrible for penetration, but, if you have any type of gap, then you need to use fill rod to get maximum strength. The next thing that you need to do to get a super strong weld is purge the back side of the weld. The back side will sugar if you are hot enough to get full penetration. With a purge, the inside of the weld will look just like the outside.

Third, Wire welding will warp less because there is less heat due to the faster travel speed.

Last, If looks are most important, tig weld it....but use fill rod. If it is for function and you want it fast....wire weld.
 
Beautiful stand, beautiful build. Can't believe you would have sold it!? B3 sells identical stands and charges a HELL of a lot more. I think we tend to get wrapped around numbers, etc. and what we SHOULD be doing (according to what "THEY" say). That's a real nice rig, man....I'm sure you'll see pics of it popping up here and there, and getting PM's about it. Emulation is the ultimate form of flattery!

Yes, this forum gives you a bit of ****....but it's because you've got a lot of really intelligent people with a lot of time on their hands, who obsess about brewing. I think it's all about whose advice you take. Some folks are sticklers for the "rules", others fly in the face of conventional wisdom....which is why you now have a 9000w U-shaped heat exchanger and 2 vessel system :D
 
Looks great!

One thing though, i'm not sure if it's the picture but here it looks like that fan hole is right under your tri-clamps. I would hate to see one of them get disconnected and a deluge of water/wort goes flowing into your box. Might be worth making a shield or something to deflect water.

P1030937.jpg
 

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