Brewing Northern Brewer Dead Ringer; Do I need a starter?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

jawilson20

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2011
Messages
277
Reaction score
11
Location
atlanta
I will be brewing the Northern Brewer Dead Ringer IPA tomorrow. The recipe states that it will have an OG of 1.064. My Wyeast 1056 yeast states that it is good for wort up to 1.060 OG. Is the 0.004 that I am over as minuscule as it seems? Or am I crazy not to try this without a starter? Alternatively, could I hit up my LHBS in the morning for another bag of the same yeast and pitch the both of them and be good?
 
Funny...I'm doing the same beer tomorrow. I'm doing a two-stage starter right now. Your beer will work without a starter, but you'd be better off with one. The yeast will be much more active, and there will be about triple the yeast cells, if you do a starter. This means the yeast will be less stressed and give you a better beer. I'd recommend one, but you'll end up with good beer without a starter.
 
Obviously a starter is ideal, but I am a bit too late in the game to make my first starter (no starter making ingredients or equipment) and still be able to brew tomorrow.

I want this beer to turn out well and if I am better off pitching two packets of the yeast I can pick some more up in the morning. Would that be recommended or is it a bad idea to do that?
 
Double pitching would work as cheap and quick peace of mind. Though like JWest said, it'll still work even if you don't double pitch or make a starter, and it will still be good beer.

In my experiences, I've never been able to taste any off flavors due to not making a starter or double pitching, but YMMV...
 
I wonder what it really means to stress yeast? Why would the small number of yeast in a vat full of food be stressed? Is it that there aren't enough once the alcohol content rises?

This idea of stressed yeast is something I sort of think will go away after a while.
 
with the rise of no chill brewing, it gives you time to turn your smack pack into a pack on steroids. just don't chill it, let it sit where it's going to ferment, then pitch the starter into the wort. it's always better to make a starter if for nothing else, to assure yeast viability. not to mention the fact that you'll be pitching proper amounts of healthy yeast. sure, you could just pitch the smacker without the starter, but if you have time, you'd want to get that starter going and pitch it when it's got the army at full strength.
 
Thanks for all the great input on the starters. Before my next batch I am definetly going to get what is required to make a starter.

This time I think I will just double pitch it with two packets. Is there any consequence to this so long as they are the same brand and strain of yeast?
 
You don't really need a starter for the purpose you propose.

A 1.064 ale needs 233 billion cells. A smack pack has 100 billion comming off the assembly line. If it was dated today you would still lose viability by the time you pitched it. So, even though pitching 2 smack packs isn't quite enough, you will still make good beer but, you would make better beer with a starter.

Even if you decide to pitch 2 smack packs, you still need to make a small starter that wakes the yeast up and lets them stretch their legs to get ready to work. Make a 2L starter with some yeast nutrient 5-6 hours prior to pitching. Your yeasties won't double but will "wake up".
 
Thanks for all the great input on the starters. Before my next batch I am definetly going to get what is required to make a starter.

This time I think I will just double pitch it with two packets. Is there any consequence to this so long as they are the same brand and strain of yeast?

Nope. It's just more expensive.
 
I wonder what it really means to stress yeast? Why would the small number of yeast in a vat full of food be stressed? Is it that there aren't enough once the alcohol content rises?

This idea of stressed yeast is something I sort of think will go away after a while.

If you don't pitch enough yeast for the task at hand there will be more work for each cell to do. Or at least they will try to make up for the workers not there.
With fewer workers (yeasties) there will be more work for each worker. The yeast bring it. They give you 100% everytime. They will try to give more when asked to and this stresses them out. They get weak and can't hold their cell walls together, producing off flavors.

So no, the "idea" of stressed yeast will not go away, it isn't an "idea". I'm sure there is a technical term for it and those in the know have tried to dumb it down for the rest of it so we can understand it.
 
I will be brewing the Northern Brewer Dead Ringer IPA tomorrow. The recipe states that it will have an OG of 1.064. My Wyeast 1056 yeast states that it is good for wort up to 1.060 OG. Is the 0.004 that I am over as minuscule as it seems? Or am I crazy not to try this without a starter? Alternatively, could I hit up my LHBS in the morning for another bag of the same yeast and pitch the both of them and be good?

You don't need a starter. I have done a Belgian Tripel with an OG of 1.092 and I used 1 Wyeast smack pack and I was fine. What a starter helps with is the lag time. I brewed Saturday and I didn't see any fermentation activity till Monday. A starter would have DEFINITELY helped with that. A starter, while they are a good idea, are unnecessary in my opinion. Good luck with your IPA!
 
You don't need a starter. I have done a Belgian Tripel with an OG of 1.092 and I used 1 Wyeast smack pack and I was fine. What a starter helps with is the lag time. I brewed Saturday and I didn't see any fermentation activity till Monday. A starter would have DEFINITELY helped with that. A starter, while they are a good idea, are unnecessary in my opinion. Good luck with your IPA!

Sure, they are not necessary. And you brew good beer without it. But, if you want to brew a better beer, I would suggest pitching enough yeast and making a starter is less expensive (although, more time consuming and maybe you can add in the cost of starter wort and water that makes it not quite as cheap) than buying the correct amount of yeast.
 
Thanks for all the somewhat conflicting, but still useful advice.

I am going to take the approach this time of double pitching. This will ensure that I can brew today with the best possible scenario.

One more question; being that I need 233 billion cells for this recipe, should I pitch three packets?

I do not mind paying an extra $6 to know my beer will turn out well.
 
I wonder what it really means to stress yeast? Why would the small number of yeast in a vat full of food be stressed? Is it that there aren't enough once the alcohol content rises?

This idea of stressed yeast is something I sort of think will go away after a while.

No. It won't. The data are quite precise, and the negative flavor effects of underpitching were well-known empirically before being well-documented starting the mid-19th-century (remember Pasteur?).

If you don't believe me, believe someone like Dr Michael Lewis, Professor Emeritus, University of California, Davis:

The rate and extent of yeast growth intimately affects beer flavor, and yeast growth (all else being equal) arises from pitching rate. Ideally, the amount of yeast pitched should be a consistent number of living yeast cells (commonly 106 cells per milliliter per degree Plato)[.]

As for details about what Dr Lewis is talking about, Wyeast Labs - the makers of the yeast the OP plans to pitch - says that underpitching leads to excess levels of diacetyl, as well as increases in higher/fusel alcohol formation, ester formation and volatile sulfur compounds, further leading to high terminal gravities, stuck fermentations, and an increased risk of infection. (source)

See also here.

There are many things homebrewers can just RDWHAHB about, like hot-side aeration. Yeast pitching is not one of them.

Edited to add: OP, pitch two packets and you'll be fine. While you're out getting your extra smack-pack, get some more sanitizer, a pound of DME, an airlock and a bung to fit a brewpub growler (you do have growlers, right? If you don't, hang your head in shame. ;) ). Now you have the "ghetto" equipment - should be under $10 - to make starters. Search for instructions on how to make starter wort and go nuts.

After you've brewed your starter, I strongly recommend pitching slurry, not starter. It's a simple thing to decant most of the spent starter wort, leaving enough to swirl into the yeast and make a runny slurry the consistency of pancake batter. That's highly concentrated yeast compared to a full starter. So you can pitch far less volume than starter calculations often call for.

Anyway. I won't hijack your thread anymore. PM me if you've more concerns.

Cheers!

Bob
 
Thanks for all the somewhat conflicting, but still useful advice.

I am going to take the approach this time of double pitching. This will ensure that I can brew today with the best possible scenario.

One more question; being that I need 233 billion cells for this recipe, should I pitch three packets?

I do not mind paying an extra $6 to know my beer will turn out well.

I don't see why not. The total amount of cells will be less than 300 billion
 
no. It won't. The data are quite precise, and the negative flavor effects of underpitching were well-known empirically before being well-documented starting the mid-19th-century (remember pasteur?).

If you don't believe me, believe someone like dr michael lewis, professor emeritus, university of california, davis:



As for details about what dr lewis is talking about, wyeast labs - the makers of the yeast the op plans to pitch - says that underpitching leads to excess levels of diacetyl, as well as increases in higher/fusel alcohol formation, ester formation and volatile sulfur compounds, further leading to high terminal gravities, stuck fermentations, and an increased risk of infection. (source)

see also here.

There are many things homebrewers can just rdwhahb about, like hot-side aeration. Yeast pitching is not one of them.

edited to add: Op, pitch two packets and you'll be fine. While you're out getting your extra smack-pack, get some more sanitizer, a pound of dme, an airlock and a bung to fit a brewpub growler (you do have growlers, right? If you don't, hang your head in shame. ;) ). Now you have the "ghetto" equipment - should be under $10 - to make starters. Search for instructions on how to make starter wort and go nuts.

After you've brewed your starter, i strongly recommend pitching slurry, not starter. It's a simple thing to decant most of the spent starter wort, leaving enough to swirl into the yeast and make a runny slurry the consistency of pancake batter. That's highly concentrated yeast compared to a full starter. So you can pitch far less volume than starter calculations often call for.

Anyway. I won't hijack your thread anymore. Pm me if you've more concerns.

Cheers!

Bob

+1
 
No. It won't. The data are quite precise, and the negative flavor effects of underpitching were well-known empirically before being well-documented starting the mid-19th-century (remember Pasteur?).

If you don't believe me, believe someone like Dr Michael Lewis, Professor Emeritus, University of California, Davis:



As for details about what Dr Lewis is talking about, Wyeast Labs - the makers of the yeast the OP plans to pitch - says that underpitching leads to excess levels of diacetyl, as well as increases in higher/fusel alcohol formation, ester formation and volatile sulfur compounds, further leading to high terminal gravities, stuck fermentations, and an increased risk of infection. (source)

See also here.

There are many things homebrewers can just RDWHAHB about, like hot-side aeration. Yeast pitching is not one of them.

Edited to add: OP, pitch two packets and you'll be fine. While you're out getting your extra smack-pack, get some more sanitizer, a pound of DME, an airlock and a bung to fit a brewpub growler (you do have growlers, right? If you don't, hang your head in shame. ;) ). Now you have the "ghetto" equipment - should be under $10 - to make starters. Search for instructions on how to make starter wort and go nuts.

After you've brewed your starter, I strongly recommend pitching slurry, not starter. It's a simple thing to decant most of the spent starter wort, leaving enough to swirl into the yeast and make a runny slurry the consistency of pancake batter. That's highly concentrated yeast compared to a full starter. So you can pitch far less volume than starter calculations often call for.

Anyway. I won't hijack your thread anymore. PM me if you've more concerns.

Cheers!

Bob

Thanks to you and Jetmac for setting me straight. I DO use a starter for most beers based on recommendations, the idea of stressed yeast just seemed a little silly to me. Good to know I'm not wasting my time when I make a starter.
 
1AM. Three batches brewed including the IPA. Double pitched the IPA and just check on it a few minutes ago and see that the airlock is bubbling. Thanks all for the great advice.
 
Back
Top