Belgian Tripel Karmeliet Clone

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Gordon,
Have you put this tip into practice? If so how did it turn out?
By doing it this way, you OG would not be representative, how would you go about measuring the ABV?

Its very easy to calculate how much a lb. of sugar adds to a particular volume of beer. John Palmer for instance has a guide on his site that tells you exactly how much 1 lb. will add to 5 gal. of wort. Extrapolate from there, or do the calculations yourself, to however much you add and to your existing volume.

My addition added just over 10 points.
 
GordonT,

Thanks for your excellent work on this clone recipe. I plan to brew my first Karmeliet clone in the next couple of months. I brew tripels appr. once a year, e.g. a Westmalle clone.

I share your experience with adding sugar near the end of primary fermentation, but don't think that it always gets you a lower FG compared with adding the sugar during boiling of the wort. It does, however, reduce the risk of yeast "becoming lazy" and not reaching minimum FG, which is a good enough reason for me to do it (exploding bottles and such).

I am translating your recipe to the European situation, and have some questions:
  • How did you come up with the original version of the recipe? I understand malt/ wheat/ oats (it's written on the bottle), and Hallertau hops, but how did you come up with the rest? Just your palate?
  • You write that you do not have the setup to handle unmalted wheat. What do you do with the oats then?
  • Re yeast: Wyeast 1214 is Chimay and Belgian Ardennes may or not be La Chouffe. Neither is the yeast straing used by Bosteels for Karmeliet and Kwak. We used to be able - at least in Europe - to start from Karmeliet bottle yeast, but today bottles are clear. Any suggestions on how to approach the original?

Bij voorbaat dank, Freek
 
GordonT,

I am translating your recipe to the European situation, and have some questions:
  • How did you come up with the original version of the recipe? I understand malt/ wheat/ oats (it's written on the bottle), and Hallertau hops, but how did you come up with the rest? Just your palate?
  • You write that you do not have the setup to handle unmalted wheat. What do you do with the oats then?
  • Re yeast: Wyeast 1214 is Chimay and Belgian Ardennes may or not be La Chouffe. Neither is the yeast straing used by Bosteels for Karmeliet and Kwak. We used to be able - at least in Europe - to start from Karmeliet bottle yeast, but today bottles are clear. Any suggestions on how to approach the original?

Bij voorbaat dank, Freek

Thanks Freek, my usual method of working on a clone is to do a lot of research which mostly involves drinking :mug:, oh and reading and comparing notes with other brewers also.

I made this clone several times and didn't get very close until I retasted and tinkered with the yeast, the malt... well just about everything changed a little. My main source of information about the beer was from tasting and from reading reviews and other clone attempts. Combing that with what my taste told me was in there brought me to this version. The most difficult part to figure out was that there is a very nice honey taste in the beer accompanied by a great floral bouquet. Honey taste and feel usually comes from Crystal malt but in this case it had to be a combination of the oats, for silkiness, and the other malts.

The bouquet has to be based on the finishing hops but none of the information said much about finishing hops. I decided I would try to have the herbs marry with the hops and see if that would create the floralness this has. I also thought that the clarity and 'cleaness' in the taste would help and that is mostly down to the yeast.

This beer is pretty close to the original. Tasting side by side it is not exact but close enough for me and all the flavour points are there.

Oats I just add to the mash. Never had a stuck mash or any problems with converting them.

The Belgian Ardennes is probably not the correct yeast but as that is not available, it is close enough for me. I often try given recipes with a different yeast just to see how things change. I'm not too worried about being exactly correct, just relaxing and having fun with my hobby.

Cheers
Gord
 
Gordon,

Thanks for your reply. As I said, excellent work which I am going to benefit from. I will keep you posted on my results.

For the yeast I will follow your approach, or maybe I will check if Bosteels ist still producing a bottle conditioned beer and hope/check if it is the primary strain.

What is your opinion on Belgian Ardennes being the yeast used by La Chouffe?

Regards, Freek
 
Gordon,

Thanks for your reply. As I said, excellent work which I am going to benefit from. I will keep you posted on my results.

For the yeast I will follow your approach, or maybe I will check if Bosteels ist still producing a bottle conditioned beer and hope/check if it is the primary strain.

What is your opinion on Belgian Ardennes being the yeast used by La Chouffe?

Regards, Freek

If Wyeast says that it is then we'll just have to trust them on that. In the past I fermented with what I dug out of the bottom of a bottle of La Chouffe. I had better luck with the Wyeast.

Cheers,
Gord
 
I brewed this last night for my first All Grain. It was a lot of fun, couldn't have gone better. Thanks for the recipe.
 
Gordon,

What temperature do you use for the secondary fermentation stage of this beer?

I've had this in primary at 75ish for 4 days now and it's looking beautiful! Lots of activity.
I'm just curious what temps you used for secondary, because I've read a lot of Belgian tripel recipes that call for 2 weeks primary in mid-high 70's, then cold crash secondary for 3 weeks.

Your feedback would be appreciated, I'm just a pebble skip away from you,
Cheers,
Scott
 
Gordon,

What temperature do you use for the secondary fermentation stage of this beer?

I've had this in primary at 75ish for 4 days now and it's looking beautiful! Lots of activity.
I'm just curious what temps you used for secondary, because I've read a lot of Belgian tripel recipes that call for 2 weeks primary in mid-high 70's, then cold crash secondary for 3 weeks.

Your feedback would be appreciated, I'm just a pebble skip away from you,
Cheers,
Scott

My secondary is usually room temperature which for you and i is probably high 50s, low 60s. I always leave it in primary until all activity is finished and the airlock is popping less than once every 10 seconds.

I don't have the facility to cold crash so I just leave it until it is clear, keg and refrigerat. I guess you could call that the cold crash stage but by that time we're usually drinking it. :) Its a great beer when young, different but still great with some age.
 
Brewing this tomorrow with WLP500. Major props for all the leg work and research. I've added my sugars to the primary in past batches without issue but might try it in the boil for this batch.
 
Got this in primary just 24 hours ago. Brewed it a week ago (I'm doing no-chill). Since we don't have liquid yeast here I decided to try a 2.5 gallon batch of this with Safale T-58. I hope the spicy nature of this yeast will compliment this beer and not the opposite. Krausen dropped about an hour ago (fast), so I added the sugar just now. Here's a pic from a few hours ago, before the Krausen dropped.

IMG_20121215_164026.jpg
 
Brewing this tomorrow with WLP500. Major props for all the leg work and research. I've added my sugars to the primary in past batches without issue but might try it in the boil for this batch.

You're welcome, hope you enjoy the finished product. If your yeast is strong and your conversion I don't think the additiion of sugar past high kreusen is that big a deal. Whatever works best for you.
 
Got this in primary just 24 hours ago. Brewed it a week ago (I'm doing no-chill). Since we don't have liquid yeast here I decided to try a 2.5 gallon batch of this with Safale T-58. I hope the spicy nature of this yeast will compliment this beer and not the opposite. Krausen dropped about an hour ago (fast), so I added the sugar just now. Here's a pic from a few hours ago, before the Krausen dropped.

Looks perfect :)
 
I'm just now finishing my first glass of this beer. This is the first brew I've done with soft water (having finally understood the mineral content and ph of my water are causing me a whole lot of problems), and it's probably my best. The color is exactly like Tripel Karmeliet (could never make a light colored beer with my regular water), the aroma is spot on, and the taste is very similiar (though there are differences). I could use a little more body/sweetness, and a little less bitterness (it's possible that my hop utilization is larger since I do no-chill), but I'm very happy with how this turned out, I'm amazed at how close it is to Tripel Karmeliet.

By the way, I did not add the spices while boiling (that is the licorice, orange peel and coriander), instead I let them soak in vodka for about two weeks and added to the beer when moving to the Party Pig. I definitely feel the licorice but could use a little more. Head retention is the best I've ever had.

Thanks a lot for this recipe, this is awesome.
 
I'm just now finishing my first glass of this beer. This is the first brew I've done with soft water (having finally understood the mineral content and ph of my water are causing me a whole lot of problems), and it's probably my best. The color is exactly like Tripel Karmeliet (could never make a light colored beer with my regular water), the aroma is spot on, and the taste is very similiar (though there are differences). I could use a little more body/sweetness, and a little less bitterness (it's possible that my hop utilization is larger since I do no-chill), but I'm very happy with how this turned out, I'm amazed at how close it is to Tripel Karmeliet.

By the way, I did not add the spices while boiling (that is the licorice, orange peel and coriander), instead I let them soak in vodka for about two weeks and added to the beer when moving to the Party Pig. I definitely feel the licorice but could use a little more. Head retention is the best I've ever had.

Thanks a lot for this recipe, this is awesome.

You're welcome sir. Glad I could help out. Definitely one of my favourites and pretty darned close to the original.
 
Man, what a great beer. Just wanted to say how much I'm enjoying it. Definitely my best brew yet.

20130131_225235.jpg
 
Man, what a great beer. Just wanted to say how much I'm enjoying it. Definitely my best brew yet.

Great pic Ido. So glad you're enjoying it. I have been unable to brew for the past couple of months and this is top of the list for me again also.

Have one for me... :cross:
 
:mug:Sounds like a good clone. Few extra question

1. Anyone has done it in 10-11galons ? Any adjustments ?
2. Anyone has it in Beer Smith and is willing to share it ?
3. Anyone tried it with dry yeast ?
4. Off topic: since you like this style I thought I'd ask if anyone knows a good Saison recipe that could share ?

Please feel free to site email me!

Thanks in advance!
Q
 
:mug:Sounds like a good clone. Few extra question

1. Anyone has done it in 10-11galons ? Any adjustments ?
2. Anyone has it in Beer Smith and is willing to share it ?
3. Anyone tried it with dry yeast ?
4. Off topic: since you like this style I thought I'd ask if anyone knows a good Saison recipe that could share ?

Please feel free to site email me!

Thanks in advance!
Q

Like I wrote, I tried it with dry yeast (Safale T-58) and had very good results.
 
Hello,

I am planning to do brew this one this Saturday and gathering the ingredients. I found the list of grains fairly generic, will that give me the liberty to get any I want, the problem is that his is going to be my first brew and the options are endless.

Here the substitutes I found, let me know if you think I chose something wrongly.

1. Lager Malt - Light Munich (Weyermann®)
2. Wheat - Flaked Wheat
3. Oats - Golden Naked Oats (Simpson's)

Planning a 10 gal with half fermented with Ardennes and half with Safbrew T-58 (10 grams) ( ido50 is this the Safale ) ?
 
Planning a 10 gal with half fermented with Ardennes and half with Safbrew T-58 (10 grams) ( ido50 is this the Safale ) ?

Yes it is. Good luck. I'd try to keep the temperature below 68 with this yeast if possible.
 
Btw how did you activate it ? I am not going to do a started but I have stir plate I plan to use...
 
Maybe add more hops towards the end ? Hallertau is amazing...

Yeah, I haven't done this recipe yet but I would second this. Perhaps a modest aroma addition would be in order. Brew Like A Monk also says that the hops are Styrian Goldings and Saaz, for what it's worth. I could see saaz though it's been a while since I've had a Tripel Karmeliet.
 
I did this over the weekend as the first brew ever!

10gal 2 yeasts (T-58 & Ardennes)

My pre-fermentation gravity was low at 1050+. I think I needed to mash more, I started the timer when I added the strike water, should have started once I had the MT back at the 149F. Things to learn, new equipment. I won't get the ABV as per recipe but I think should make a tasty beer.

The t-58 I did stir for 3 hours on a home made stir plate with 1/2 cup of water and added some sugar syrup (sterile) it got very "mean" turn white-ish in color and had two type of heads. When I put it in it started to ferment in lest than 2 hours! The other one it took 2 days to get to the pace of the stirred one.

Syrup was made of 2lbs of sugar, did some reading they say we don't have to reinvent the sugar :)


Questions:

  • I added the hops and the licorice a boiling bag and added the orange peel and coriander straight into the boiler out of the bag. Should I have dumped them in the BK so part of them get in the fermenters ? Would that make a different when it comes to taste/aroma ?
  • The color is a bit dark, will it lighten up ?
 
I did this over the weekend as the first brew ever!

10gal 2 yeasts (T-58 & Ardennes)

My pre-fermentation gravity was low at 1050+. I think I needed to mash more, I started the timer when I added the strike water, should have started once I had the MT back at the 149F. Things to learn, new equipment. I won't get the ABV as per recipe but I think should make a tasty beer.

The t-58 I did stir for 3 hours on a home made stir plate with 1/2 cup of water and added some sugar syrup (sterile) it got very "mean" turn white-ish in color and had two type of heads. When I put it in it started to ferment in lest than 2 hours! The other one it took 2 days to get to the pace of the stirred one.

Syrup was made of 2lbs of sugar, did some reading they say we don't have to reinvent the sugar :)


Questions:

  • I added the hops and the licorice a boiling bag and added the orange peel and coriander straight into the boiler out of the bag. Should I have dumped them in the BK so part of them get in the fermenters ? Would that make a different when it comes to taste/aroma ?
  • The color is a bit dark, will it lighten up ?

Good luck. As for your earlier question (didn't notice it), I simply rehydrate the dry yeast in sterile water at ~27 degrees celsius (as per the instructions on the manufacturer's website) for anywhere between 15 to 40 minutes. It is unnecessary to make a starter and/or use a stir plate with dry yeast, but I suppose it doesn't hurt too.
 
I forgot to write it down unfortunately (plus adding the sugar during fermentation screws the reading anyway). I do have it written down that fermentation finished for me at 1.020.
 
I added the sugar at boil time - I know GordonT that he will add it to the fermentation as a little tip he found. Did that helo GordonT, did you see a difference ?

Sugar is sugar if there is active yeast it will eat it all.
 
Yes it is. Good luck. I'd try to keep the temperature below 68 with this yeast if possible.

4 Days in and the T-58 kinda stopped, the krausen is gone, it's bubbling once in a while. The Ardennes is still going but it slowed down. Not too fast but it has krausen on top of the liquid.


The temp is between 62-66F depending on the time of day or night for that matter.

Can you share your experience ? at this rate I will transfer it to the 2nd when 7 days are up.
 
4 Days in and the T-58 kinda stopped, the krausen is gone, it's bubbling once in a while. The Ardennes is still going but it slowed down. Not too fast but it has krausen on top of the liquid.


The temp is between 62-66F depending on the time of day or night for that matter.

Can you share your experience ? at this rate I will transfer it to the 2nd when 7 days are up.

For me krausen dropped within the first 24 hours! It kept bubbling at a good rate for a few more days before slowing down considerably. You should be fine.

Personally, I don't transfer to secondary fermenters, I've only done that once about two years ago and wound up infecting that beer, so I stopped doing that.
 
After 11 days I moved it to the secondary. As I stated before I made 10 gal and split in 2 fermenters. in one I pitched T-58 and Ardennes into the other.

I did read the gravity and sampled the hydrometer jar.

The T-58 batch is amazing, it made a better tasting beer when compared with Ardennes sample whoever they are somewhat similar. Coriander, licorice and orange they all combine very pleasantly in this beer. The reading was 1.010. The OG was 1.050 but something might have been fishy when I read the OG since it feels stronger than 5%


I am going to keg it in 9 day but want to age some bottles.

IDO thanks for suggesting T-58. GordonT thanks for sharing a great recipe. Very close to the original.
 
IDO thanks for suggesting T-58. GordonT thanks for sharing a great recipe. Very close to the original.

You're welcome! Glad to hear it turned out well for you. Unless your reading was way off something odd did happen as I usually have an OG closer to 1075
 
You're welcome! Glad to hear it turned out well for you. Unless your reading was way off something odd did happen as I usually have an OG closer to 1075

This was my first brew with this setup, actually is my first setup ever. 2 PID, 3 keggles, etc and might have been my extraction. I started the timer when I hit the grains with the strike water - should have started it when the mashtun temp was back up to the mash temp so the efficiency could have suffered a bit.

THere is also the other posibility - doing my first ever gravity read in a wine thief I could have messed it up. Will check it out after kegging it.

Is there a easy way to check the ABV after the beer is finished ?

Taste wise is almost there!
 
I think I will use this chart to set my carbonation

http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php


Another update after 10 days I kegged it and I put it in the kegorator. No carbonation yet, wating to drop to 39-40F then I will do a 2.60 based in the chart.

But the main reason I do reply to this thread is to give a feedback on the taste and numbers of my 2 5 galon batch one done with T-58 and one with Ardennes that I fermenterd 11 days in 1st at 63 and 10 days in 2nd at 64.

I have to say that the ardennes continued t ferment slowly at that temp and FG with it was 1.005 while the T-58 stayed put at 1.010. On top of that ardennes batch does smell and taste better - it was the other way around after 1st.

So I will force carbonate and consume the Ardennes batch first while giving 2 weeks to the T-58. They is a lot of floral aromas in the Ardennes and I think will make a great beer.

I am a bit puzzled to keep the T-58 at low temp 40ish in the kegorator or bring it upstairs to a warm place at 70F ? Any advice ?

Thanks!
Q
 
I am currently conducting an experiment that may interest followers of this thread. 2.5 weeks ago I brewed 35 liters of wort using GordonT's recipe for malt/sugar with wheat and oats chosen 50/50 malted/unmalted, Hallertau Mittelfrueh hops aiming for 20 IBUs, spices as suggested by GordonT. Late addition of sugar (after 8 days) as also suggested by GordonT. Initial gravity of the wort was 1072 (calculated). I split the wort in 25 liters + 10 liters. The large batch is fermenting with original Bosteels yeast, harvested from 4 bottles of fresh Tripel Karmeliet. The smaller batch is meant as a reference, and is fermenting with a neutral all-purpose dry yeast, for which I chose Nottingham. After 10 days the SG of the batch with Bosteels yeast dropped to 1021, whereas the reference batch with Nottingham yeast was already at 1012. Taste of the Bosteels batch was better, more mellow. Too early to say if it will be similar to commercial Karmeliet.

The high SG for the Bosteels batch makes sense, as we think that the Bosteels yeast has a low attenuation. I measured FG of commercial Tripel Karmeliet last week, and it was 1016, which is high for a brew with 6% sugar in the mash. Kwak, another beer by Bosteels probably fermented with the same yeast, has a FG of 1020 with an assumed 10-16% sugar in the mash (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/kwak-beer-252114/index2.html). I find these high FGs somewhat confusing. Any suggestions?

I will let the beers rest for another month, and then put them in kegs an bottles. The bottle conditioned ones will be the most interesting for the experiment, as they will resemble commercial Tripel Karmeliet the most. Final judgement expected in September. Keep you posted!
 
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