Beginning fermentation way too warm?

Hi everyone...First time brewer noob here, and done my best to search the forum and read the stickys and the 'did I ruin my beer?' threads, but haven't exactly found this answer.

I'll try to cut to the chase: I used a True Brew Oktoberfest extract kit (which uses a Muntons ale yeast), and I'm afraid the first 12-16 hours of fermentation was at way too high of a temperature.

I followed these instructions from Palmer: "Bring 3 gallons of water to a boil in a large pot. Pour this water into the fermenter and leave it to cool. Now bring another 3 gallons of water to boil in the brewpot. You will be boiling the malt extract in this water and diluting this concentrated wort with the water in the fermenter to make the total five gallons."

So, the initial 3 gallons got boiled and then poured into a 6 gallon glass carboy to "cool" while I boiled and cooled the rest of the wort. I got the wort to cool down to approx. 84 degrees in an ice bath, and then added to the carboy.

However, the original 3 gallons of boiled water sure hadn't cooled very much during the 2 hours before I added the wort. I pitched the yeast, and slight bubbling began within a couple hours. Twelve hours after pitching, the airlock was bubbling very vigorously. This was in my kitchen, and the ambient temperature was around 72 degrees. I moved it into the basement 16 hours after pitching, based on advice here that the ambient temp was too warm. All bubbling subsided within 36 hours.

So, with the combination of HOT water in the carboy, wort at 84 degrees when I pitched, and then the high ambient temperatures for the first 16 hours, did my fermentation happen at too high of a temperature, resulting in off flavors? I've read a bit about fusel alcohol and am wondering if this is a concern.

Sorry for writing a book. Very excited about my first batch of beer. I appreciate the patience and advice from experienced home brewers that must roll their eyes every time a noob like myself comes in here freaking out and looking for some hand-holding.

Depends on exactly how high the boiled water was, but it does sound like a concern. There is no harm in letting the wort sit overnight if you are not sure if it has fully cooled at least to ambient temperature. Definitely let it ride out, DO NOT TOSS IT, but you may end up with some of the "hot" alcohol flavors.

Thanks for the answer. "Hot" alcohol flavors...what will that taste like? If I took a sample now (9 days after brew day) would I be able to tell?

During the most active time of fermentation, the aroma above the airlock I thought was awesome...very fragrant, somewhat fruity...but I'm wondering the the fruity aroma was a bad sign?

twistr25 said:

Depends on exactly how high the boiled water was, but it does sound like a concern. There is no harm in letting the wort sit overnight if you are not sure if it has fully cooled at least to ambient temperature. Definitely let it ride out, DO NOT TOSS IT, but you may end up with some of the "hot" alcohol flavors.

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BTW, this was how she looked 12 hours after pitching the yeast.

You should be able to taste the "hotness", and though I've never personally had it happen yet, I imagine somewhat like the bite of vodka or the like. Was the fruity smell banana like? I believe that one is due to esters, which is also ferm temp related, but doesn't make it a bad batch and I believe it mellows out as opposed to the fusels. Hopefully someone else will weigh in if I'm wrong.

Maybe I'll give it a try later today. However, my original plan was to wait at least 3 more days before taking a sample. Looking to bottle at the 2 week mark.

The aroma wasn't banana-like, at least in my opinion. Maybe slightly like a cider, but it's hard for me to say, or even describe.

twistr25 said:

You should be able to taste the "hotness", and though I've never personally had it happen yet, I imagine somewhat like the bite of vodka or the like. Was the fruity smell banana like? I believe that one is due to esters, which is also ferm temp related, but doesn't make it a bad batch and I believe it mellows out as opposed to the fusels. Hopefully someone else will weigh in if I'm wrong.

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IMHO, from very limited experience, the cider taste is probably just sign your beer is too green.

Might want to think about going 3 weeks in primary, and keep a good eye on temps from here on out.

What yeast did you pitch? (Sorry, I didnt see it in the original post)

If you allow the wort to ferment above 80 degrees for more than a day or two, you will likely be left with some fusel alcohols. They are much less noticeable in a beer with lots of specialty grains (porter, stout). I recently did an English brown ale as my first all-grain batch and let it get too hot during the primary fermentation. The fusel alcohols are very noticeable in the aroma and the aftertaste. It can taste and smell a bit like nail polish remover, vodka, rubbing alcohol, etc. I'm preparing to order a plate chiller to help me get down to fermentation temperatures faster, as my lack of patience with my wort chiller likely got the best of me. If you experience these flavors/aromas in your beer, try mixing with another commercial beer to make it more drinkable.

You'll probably have to taste it first and then let us know how it is. A week and a half after pitching, the damage is kind of done, not that you want it to get in the 90s or anything, but ambient temps now shouldn't really have much of an effect.

Aaarggh....3 weeks in primary?!? Lol...how is it that homebrewing has made me as impatient as a six year old a day before christmas? :cross:

The yeast packet that came with the kit was a small yellow one...Muntons ale yeast. That's all I know.

stevehardt said:

IMHO, from very limited experience, the cider taste is probably just sign your beer is too green.

Might want to think about going 3 weeks in primary, and keep a good eye on temps from here on out.

What yeast did you pitch? (Sorry, I didnt see it in the original post)

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Ok, I'll give it a try.

I thought I was being smart by following Palmer's instructions to boil the original 3 gallons, and then adding the wort to that. Unfortunately, I didn't realize that it would be FAR from cool by the time the wort was added. It sounds like a lot of people top off their wort with cool tap water to get to the 5 gallons. I have no reason to suspect there is any problem with my tap water, so I might just do it that way next time.

By the way, the instructions that came with the kit didn't even mention chilling the wort in an ice bath, just pour hot into carboy.

twistr25 said:

You'll probably have to taste it first and then let us know how it is. A week and a half after pitching, the damage is kind of done, not that you want it to get in the 90s or anything, but ambient temps now shouldn't really have much of an effect.

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That's probably right, that's the base one that comes with most kits.

Patience is something to learn really quick with this hobby. The more patient you are the better the beer will be. I think you'd be safe testing it at 2 weeks to check your FG and then wait a week if you can to test it again. If it's the same, bottle away. Longer time in the primary may help some of the off-flavors to clear up, but not necessarily.

I'll take a sample later today and will have a taste. I'll report back here with the results.

Thanks to everyone who has chimed in on this!

twistr25 said:

That's probably right, that's the base one that comes with most kits.

Patience is something to learn really quick with this hobby. The more patient you are the better the beer will be. I think you'd be safe testing it at 2 weeks to check your FG and then wait a week if you can to test it again. If it's the same, bottle away. Longer time in the primary may help some of the off-flavors to clear up, but not necessarily.

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Once you get a few in the pipeline it becomes easier, but then you want variety.... It's tough, but well worth it.

Any damage that was done was done early on while it was hot. But with what you are brewing, I wouldn't really worry.
You are using a fairly clean ale yeast that may have produced some fruity esters at high temps but your beer is very malty.
The malty/caramel/sweet taste of that brew will hide a lot of defects including 'hotness' (throat burning taste like a shot of cheap whiskey).
And esters are only a bad thing if you don't want them; they would be a defect detectable in a lager version of the Oktoberfest.
I think it is a good choice for a first beer but don't compare this to a commercial Oktoberfest; those are clean lagers.

Thank you for the reassurance! I was really starting to feel depressed. I was really optimistic up until this morning when I got to thinking about how warm that boil water was. Do you believe an additional week (3 weeks) in the primary fermenter is essential to "clean up" some of the off flavors? Instructions said bottle after one; I was willing to wait 2 weeks.

mredge73 said:

Any damage that was done was done early on while it was hot. But with what you are brewing, I wouldn't really worry.
You are using a fairly clean ale yeast that may have produced some fruity esters at high temps but your beer is very malty.
The malty/caramel/sweet taste of that brew will hide a lot of defects including 'hotness' (throat burning taste like a shot of cheap whiskey).
And esters are only a bad thing if you don't want them; they would be a defect detectable in a lager version of the Oktoberfest.
I think it is a good choice for a first beer but don't compare this to a commercial Oktoberfest; those are clean lagers.

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Those kit instructions are 90% worthless, especially in the time line. I wouldn't say it is essential, and depending on the off flavors, it may not matter, but typically longer is better.

Use 2 weeks minimal and skip the secondary as a rule of thumb for a typical Ale under 1.06 OG.
If you are worried (and you are) no harm will come to it if you give it an extra week up to a month in the primary.
This hobby requires patience; developing a pipeline so you have something to enjoy while you wait can help with the impatience.
I would estimate a minimum of 6 weeks grain to glass when bottling.

One thing I did for cooling the wort quickly was I took 2 gallons on distilled water (bad tap) and put in the freezer for a few hours. After the wort was in the ice bath for about 12 minutes I added a gallon of the cold, waited another 5 and transferred to the fermenter. Then I added the additional gallon in and transferred it back and forth to aerate. Cooled to pitching temp right at 20 minutes.

Yeah, definitely looking forward to having a pipeline. Any suggestions on what to brew next (extract kit)? I'm not a huge fan of overly hopped bitterness, but it would be cool to brew something with high alcohol content. I'm really going to have to learn my taste preferences.

mredge73 said:

Use 2 weeks minimal and skip the secondary as a rule of thumb for a typical Ale under 1.06 OG.
If you are worried (and you are) no harm will come to it if you give it an extra week up to a month in the primary.
This hobby requires patience; developing a pipeline so you have something to enjoy while you wait can help with the impatience.
I would estimate a minimum of 6 weeks grain to glass when bottling.

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I have pitched too hot a number of times when I first started brewing, and the 'hot' taste never really went away for me....If you don't mind switching styles, you could try dry hopping your beer to help mask the flavor some.

+1 on 3 weeks or longer in primary then 3 weeks in the bottle. Time can heal alot of brewing mistakes. Beer is too green at 2 weeks to really give you an idea of what the finished product will taste like. It will taste a whole lot different after it has been in the bottle for 3 weeks. Patience grasshopper!

Coolhand78 said:

Yeah, definitely looking forward to having a pipeline. Any suggestions on what to brew next (extract kit)? I'm not a huge fan of overly hopped bitterness, but it would be cool to brew something with high alcohol content. I'm really going to have to learn my taste preferences.

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Bigger brews (high alcohol content) are much more challenging to ferment. They require yeast starters, blow off tubes, good temperature control, and lots of patience. Stick to brews under 1.06 OG until you have a good handle on the process.

As far as a recommendation:
Until you get a handle on good temperature control I recommend trying some Belgium styles. They are more forgiving to higher temps since the fruity esters produced contribute positively to the flavor profile. I love them, but others hate them.
But winter is coming; depending on where you live you may want to do lagers that ferment no higher than 55F.

I wouldn't mind trying a Belgian, but I don't anticipate temp issues to be a continued problem. From now on I'll use cool water to add to my wart in the carboy, i'll plan to have some additional ice blocks on hand to chill the wort, and I'll move it to the basement right away.

I'm in Wisconsin, so warm temps shouldn't be an issue. In the winter we keep our thermastat at 68, and it'll probably be at least 5 degrees cooler in the basement. So, I'd be open to more suggestions for my next brew.

mredge73 said:

Bigger brews (high alcohol content) are much more challenging to ferment. They require yeast starters, blow off tubes, good temperature control, and lots of patience. Stick to brews under 1.06 OG until you have a good handle on the process.

As far as a recommendation:
Until you get a handle on good temperature control I recommend trying some Belgium styles. They are more forgiving to higher temps since the fruity esters produced contribute positively to the flavor profile. I love them, but others hate them.
But winter is coming; depending on where you live you may want to do lagers that ferment no higher than 55F.

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When the 'hot alcohol' flavor hits your beer you will know. As others described it, its similar to the burn you get from certain liquors, especially low shelf budget vodkas. Its masked by the beer, but you can definitely tell something is off.

If I try some now, after 9 days in primary, will I know?

FuzzeWuzze said:

When the 'hot alcohol' flavor hits your beer you will know. As others described it, its similar to the burn you get from certain liquors, especially low shelf budget vodkas. Its masked by the beer, but you can definitely tell something is off.

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I would think so

Coolhand78 said:

If I try some now, after 9 days in primary, will I know?

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Probably. You should be near FG now so if this flavor exist, it will be noticeable.
If it is overwhelming, be prepared to leave it in the bottles for 6 months or more to mellow out. I don't suspect this to be an issue though.

Hi guys,

Finally took a hydrometer reading today, and also had a taste. First, I'll say the aroma was really pretty good, similar to one of my new favorite brews, New Glarus - Laughing Fox, i.e. lightly fruity with a hint of caramel and cloves. The color is good, kind of a gold-ish bronze.

Then I had a taste. There was a fair bit of Star San foam in my thief at the time, but I didn't think that would be an issue. The taste was slightly underwhelming, but by no means bad. No "hot" flavor or alcohol burn. There was no taste of fruityness or sweetness that came through on the aroma. I also wouldn't say there was much of a hoppy bitterness either. However, there was a slight plastic-y aftertaste, perhaps close to what I've heard some beers described as a hint of old bandaids, but it was very faint and by no means bad or rancid. Mostly just bland, I guess. So, I hope and expect 3 weeks in bottles with some added carbonation will improve this beer nicely.

One final question - I forgot to get a starting gravity reading when I pitched my yeast, but the kit states beginning gravity should be 1.040 - 1.042. Final gravity on the kit says 1.010 - 1.012. Today I took my first ever hydrometer reading (after a couple tries, I think I got it right), and it looks like 1.016 (at 66 degrees in my basement). So, it's a little high when compared to what the kit instructions say. Not a big deal though? I think my biggest disappointment is that (assuming my beginning gravity was in proper range), the ABV will be only 3.1% according to Palmer's chart. So, assuming I get the same gravity reading tomorrow, I plan on doing my bottling.

As always, I appreciate any thoughts and comments you might be willing to share. I'd love to hear what you think of my flavor assessment or gravity reading. Thanks!

Coolhand78 said:

Hi guys,

Finally took a hydrometer reading today, and also had a taste. First, I'll say the aroma was really pretty good, similar to one of my new favorite brews, New Glarus - Laughing Fox, i.e. lightly fruity with a hint of caramel and cloves. The color is good, kind of a gold-ish bronze.

Then I had a taste. There was a fair bit of Star San foam in my thief at the time, but I didn't think that would be an issue. The taste was slightly underwhelming, but by no means bad. No "hot" flavor or alcohol burn. There was no taste of fruityness or sweetness that came through on the aroma. I also wouldn't say there was much of a hoppy bitterness either. However, there was a slight plastic-y aftertaste, perhaps close to what I've heard some beers described as a hint of old bandaids, but it was very faint and by no means bad or rancid. Mostly just bland, I guess. So, I hope and expect 3 weeks in bottles with some added carbonation will improve this beer nicely.

One final question - I forgot to get a starting gravity reading when I pitched my yeast, but the kit states beginning gravity should be 1.040 - 1.042. Final gravity on the kit says 1.010 - 1.012. Today I took my first ever hydrometer reading (after a couple tries, I think I got it right), and it looks like 1.016 (at 66 degrees in my basement). So, it's a little high when compared to what the kit instructions say. Not a big deal though? I think my biggest disappointment is that (assuming my beginning gravity was in proper range), the ABV will be only 3.1% according to Palmer's chart. So, assuming I get the same gravity reading tomorrow, I plan on doing my bottling.

As always, I appreciate any thoughts and comments you might be willing to share. I'd love to hear what you think of my flavor assessment or gravity reading. Thanks!

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I'd take two more readings and if it stays at 1.016 then it's good to bottle or or condition longer if you want.

Does each reading need to be 24 hours apart? Can I do one in 24 hours and then another in 12? ...i.e. so I can get to bottling.

jonnyp1980 said:

I'd take two more readings and if it stays at 1.016 then it's good to bottle or or condition longer if you want.

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Coolhand78 said:

Does each reading need to be 24 hours apart? Can I do one in 24 hours and then another in 12? ...i.e. so I can get to bottling.

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I've been taught 3 days consecutive. Better safe than sorry..cause if its not done fermenting and you bottle it will continue to ferment in the bottle.they will explode due to the pressure build up its up to you but I recommend taking one once a day for three days.

Coolhand78 said:

Does each reading need to be 24 hours apart? Can I do one in 24 hours and then another in 12? ...i.e. so I can get to bottling.

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It's better if you wait 3 days. The less you pry off the lid and introduce O2, the better