Pannepot (Old Fisherman's Ale) Clone Thread

We had a natural rise to low 80's (81-82F) through the 4th day and maintained 82F for another 2 days with temp control. We decided to let the gravity steer the duration. Recommend at least 3 11g packs of T58 on a pitch to 5 gallons. I think this was what gave us momentum on the target FG. We may drop below 1.025 before this is complete.

As suspected our gravity dropped another point to 1.024 and this Ale is better than we had envisioned. Even at this stage it's not cloying sweet in the least. Initially we thought the Bramling Cross might be a little funky but luckily that concern was unfounded. The Bramling Cross blends beautifully with the mild Belgian funk of the T-58 and marries-up with the spice infusion.

As far as critiques go we're at a loss. The spice percentages and boil times seem just about right. Our instinct to go easy on the Coriander lines up with the Rochefort Monks who advise to do so, (glad we did). We get no orange or spices up front but after the malt and Special B pass the orange and cinnamon waft onto the palate unexpectedly. Very magical brew. If this Ale gets better with time we'll submit it for some of the Fall competitions.

The color is lighter at this stage than the SRM specification, (definitely not SRM 30+). We have a dark chestnut colored ale. Has anyone else given this brew a try yet? It is well worth the trouble.

Glad to hear it is coming along so well!

Our batch at 1.030 FG doesn't seem too sweet either, just rich. Luckily the Belgian styles can deal with a higher FG when spiced.

We do not have a Pannepot sitting around to compare to (the ones we do got soured a bit in a heat wave), but the spices are near perfect. I can only detect the thyme as I know it is there, and get that wonderful savory note from it. The other spices blended beautifully with the malt and sugar characters. Dark chestnut color as well.

This is at the 2 week cold conditioning mark. I am thinking 6 weeks rather than 8, and then letting it bottle condition for a couple months. Will be ready for the local County Fair.

So SUU, when all is done and moderately conditioned, are we going to do a hostage exchange?

Tall_Yotie said:

Glad to hear it is coming along so well!
So SUU, when all is done and moderately conditioned, are we going to do a hostage exchange?

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Absolutely!

We have a couple of very large HB supply houses in our delivery area and as we were delivering a restock of our Candi Syrup today we noticed they had a new display of Belgian ale's with the usual suspects, Orval, Rochefort, Westmalle, Chimay but buried in the back was a small cache of Pannepot Reserva 2008 for $8 each. We stocked up. We'll give it a taste test tomorrow afternoon and hopefully complement the Pannepot taste report.

Pannepot OFA Reserva 2008

Appearance
Visual estimation on this ale without using a PFXi 880-S Colorimeter is certainly above 20 SRM but not above 22 SRM. The color is medium chestnut brown. The ale is a little murky and opaque even after having settled and carefully poured but one can easily see light through the brown chestnut haze. Definitely a brown ale.

Carbonation
Medium carbonation with an initial and slight ¼ finger head that disappears almost immediately before you put the goblet down.

Nose
Nice caramel nose from the bottle but with a hint of old tangy chardonnay or Brett. Once in the glass the caramel nose increases as it warms. Strong presence of what appears to be a blend of Pale and Caramel malt.

Alcohol
The alcohol is well hidden in the ale. At 10% ABV you can hardy detect it. Certainly no hot or fusel alcohols. Very well brewed.

Body and Sweetness
The body is very, very chewy with a heavy nougat-like mouth feel. Medium to medium high on sweetness. I’d say somewhere between 1.022 – 1.025 possibly on the higher side of this range but the heavy mouth feel and mild hops deceive the palate.

Hops
Very subtle almost under-hopped for the gravity, (subjective). No pronounced bitterness. Very difficult to detect varietals.

Yeast
If I had to guess I would say T-58 was likely not the yeast strain, (at least not the Fermentis T-58 that we use). The yeast in this brew is very flocculation resistant (like T-58), but it has no spicey or peppery esters clearly found in T-58. I would guess a clean, less peppery strain somewhere closer to Bastogne possibly?

Malt, Spices, and Overall Palate
The malts were far more distinct. Clear Pale and Caramel malts with the slightest addition of a medium roasted malt on a Pilsner base. No strong chocolate malts whatsoever. Through the entire range of palate flavors from first sip to last remaining ester no spices were detected other than a slight hint of coriander and a slightly old Chardonnay flavor as if in a prior life the barrel was used to age a dry White wine. Had a finishing palate of mild Brett but I doubt Brett was used. No distinct oak flavors. No Belgian funk aroma or spicy esters whatsoever. Fairly sweet, high gravity, medium chestnut brown Belgian ale. Very nice.

Thanks for the notes! Really well put together. If you want to have additional tasting notes from me, feel free to send one of those bottles you found....

As for your take on the FG, from the tasting do you think a higher FG (like my 1.029) will be far too apparent, or should meld in just fine?

Interesting take on the yeast aroma. I would be curious if the spices added affect how the yeast notes are perceived however.

Tall_Yotie said:

As for your take on the FG, from the tasting do you think a higher FG (like my 1.029) will be far too apparent, or should meld in just fine?

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I would guess that if the body is as heavy as this Reserva then it should be fine. The heavy body seems to hide the sweetness just enough to keep it from being cloying. I think they may have done some high decoction on this brew. Maybe 160F and even higher. No way to get this heavy a body without very high conversion(s).

Tall_Yotie said:

Interesting take on the yeast aroma. I would be curious if the spices added affect how the yeast notes are perceived however.

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Bottle refermentation and aging in high gravity produces some interesting flavors. Very possible.

BTW, is anyone else brewing this?

So some good ideas for next time I suppose!

We are at the 4-week mark of cold conditioning come this weekend. Trying to determine if I should do 6 or 8 weeks. Our Westy12 recipes seem to say 8 weeks, but a Roch8 clone posted here I did with 6 weeks and it turned out amazing (after extended bottle conditioning of course).

Tall_Yotie said:

So some good ideas for next time I suppose!

We are at the 4-week mark of cold conditioning come this weekend. Trying to determine if I should do 6 or 8 weeks. Our Westy12 recipes seem to say 8 weeks, but a Roch8 clone posted here I did with 6 weeks and it turned out amazing (after extended bottle conditioning of course).

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We're thinking along the same lines. We're shooting for 8-10 weeks with 4 months bottle conditioning. BTW we just completed the bottling of our 7th version of the Westvleteren 12. It conditioned for 12 weeks this time.

I might just be impatient and do 6 weeks. I tasted a sample at the 4 week mark and it was amazing. I think your sugars are already showing some improvements in the fruit-note department over my other Belgian style ales.

I figure a long bottle conditioning time is a good idea, though I will be sampling (in small amounts) throughout that time period. Can't expect me to just let it sit when I am running low on my Belgians, now can you?

When we do our hostage exchange I may try to coax you out of one of your Westy12 clones. I have a wonderful Imp Stout with Molasses that just took first place in the Specialty Beer category at the San Mateo County Fair that I could exchange. First competition, got two 1st's and two 3rd's between the brews I had a hand in, so I am thinking not too shabby.

Anyways, enough rambling, I really should be watching the lab here (Interns + Volatile Chemicals + High Voltage = Occasional Supervision).

Tall_Yotie said:

I might just be impatient and do 6 weeks. I tasted a sample at the 4 week mark and it was amazing. I think your sugars are already showing some improvements in the fruit-note department over my other Belgian style ales.

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Thanks. We definitely think so.

Tall_Yotie said:

I figure a long bottle conditioning time is a good idea, though I will be sampling (in small amounts) throughout that time period. Can't expect me to just let it sit when I am running low on my Belgians, now can you?

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We always brew a little extra just for 'sampling'

Tall_Yotie said:

When we do our hostage exchange I may try to coax you out of one of your Westy12 clones. I have a wonderful Imp Stout with Molasses that just took first place in the Specialty Beer category at the San Mateo County Fair that I could exchange. First competition, got two 1st's and two 3rd's between the brews I had a hand in, so I am thinking not too shabby.

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Absolutely. Sounds like a fair exchange. We'll have 2 editions of our Westvleteren 12 bottle conditioned and ready about the same time as this Pannepot.

We performed a bottle carb test on our 6th Westvleteren 12 today.

We've noticed a slight improvement on this version. We're getting about a 3 inch long-lasting head and a smooth-bourbon/slight leather palate whereas we did not get the leather before. We do have the recipe very well documented. Why this is superior to 005, 004, 003, etc. we simply don't know. We did run out of Syrian Goldings that day and used HMF instead. That's the only change but does not explain the palate.

VERY interesting My wife, who has amazing receptors, did note a hint of leather when we had it at In De Vrede (I hate to sound like I am gloating, but OMG it was an amazing experience).

No change in water chemistry, time of sugar additions, strength of boil, or fermenting/conditioning temperature?

I need to brew this one up. Will do that one the Pannepot is out of the fridge, I only have space for one brew to cold condition.

edit: Is the recipe up on the Westy12 thread you most up to date recipe?

Tall_Yotie said:

VERY interesting My wife, who has amazing receptors, did note a hint of leather when we had it at In De Vrede (I hate to sound like I am gloating, but OMG it was an amazing experience).

No change in water chemistry, time of sugar additions, strength of boil, or fermenting/conditioning temperature?

I need to brew this one up. Will do that one the Pannepot is out of the fridge, I only have space for one brew to cold condition.

edit: Is the recipe up on the Westy12 thread you most up to date recipe?

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The 006 recipe is up but for some reason does not have the hop substitution. I'll send this over to you via email.

We just checked our FG and it has dropped further. We're at 1.021 and the brew is quite good but does not have the chewy heavy body of an OFA. We're heading back to this recipe for another try upping the Flaked Maize and adding 2 high decoctions. The flavor is fine as is. No malt or spice changes. Probably compile this recipe and brew in another week.

I agree that the flavor, at least without any aging to judge by, is incredible. You gravity dropped another 4 points after racking and cold conditioning? That doesn't seem to make too much sense, but I will take your word for it. I don't think mine has budged at all. Next time I will mash at a lower temperature.

Tall_Yotie said:

I agree that the flavor, at least without any aging to judge by, is incredible. You gravity dropped another 4 points after racking and cold conditioning? That doesn't seem to make too much sense, but I will take your word for it. I don't think mine has budged at all. Next time I will mash at a lower temperature.

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Maybe not too incredible. Our pitch rate was fairly high, and with servomyces and O2 the yeast had some elbow room. Also since our conditioning is ramped for slow precipitation it would take 3-4 days to reach our setting of 55F.

Given Pannepot's incredibly "chewy" texture we're considering mashing much higher and changing to 2 decoctions then altering the pitch rate back a bit to hit a higher FG. As of now we're well below where we should be and the mouth-feel isn't chewy enough. This attempt will be a fantastic ale but just not a representative clone. We're brewing this again with adjustments this Sat.

Our previous FG reading with a bubble hydrometer was a point off. Using a refractometer we're calling the FG at 1.022. After 6 weeks into conditioning the flavor of this brew is fantastic. Only now can I pick up on the savory hint of Thyme. The cinnamon and orange has all but disappeared. We're bottling this the first week of August.

Other that Tall and CSI, has anyone else brewed this?

I hope to soon. Between moving to a new job, moving to a new house and my wife being pregnant I haven't brewed in like 3-4 months. I'm hoping to start back up shortly.

Would be great to see how your turn out Saq! Understandable on the delays of course.

Next weekend I hope to bottle. My apartment is hot though, so concerned about storing it for the week before I can bring it to somewhere cooler (parent's house in cooler region). I will have one and a half months bottle conditioning before the local competition, hopefully it will be awesome by then!

Update.

Bottled the brew, FG ended up at 1.030.

From the hydrometer sample, it tastes absolutely amazing.

Getting on the aroma side young cherry, like the red/white variety. The thyme is apparent (subtly) on the nose as well. For flavor, there is a note of coriander and orange, but it is blended so it is part of the beer and not separate notes. The cinnamon is not very noticeable, and I am uncertain if we (my wife and I) can taste it or we are just looking for it too hard.

I could drink this right now (enjoying the hydrometer sample slowly), just needs carbonation. Can't wait to see how this ages.

Bottles are in suspended animation (in the fridge) until I can transfer them next weekend to a place with cooler temperatures. I would hate to cook these after so much effort.

Entered this at the Santa Cruz County Fair. 39.5 point, Blue Ribbon, best of flight, and took 6th place in the Best Of Show face off!

As it didn't have the thickness of a real Pannepot I entered it as a Specialty Belgian; Belg Dark Strong with coriander orange peel and sage. Notes were that the sage was not apparent (it was subtle so easy to miss), little low on carb (my bad) and mainly that the body was a bit light for the style. Purely the body lightness was what kept it from winning BoS according to the judges.

So, next time I up the sage and cinnamon and mess with the proportions of the grains; talked to the BoS and they said it was big enough ( amazed at the ABV with how it read for alcohol), so just need to modify, no add.

Long story short; judge said the term that kept coming up when tasting in it's flight was "delicious", it just needed to have more body to it's style.

Anyone thinking of giving this clone another shot? Seems like Tall_Yotie and CSI had great results with the one spot for improvement being the body. CSI, did you ever rebrew with higher mash temps or a double decoction?

I am thinking of trying this brew this weekend. In an attempt to increase the body of the beer I was thinking of mashing a bit higher, and considering adding some flaked oats or barley. Any thoughts?

Cheers.

jcojr72 said:

Anyone thinking of giving this clone another shot? Seems like Tall_Yotie and CSI had great results with the one spot for improvement being the body. CSI, did you ever rebrew with higher mash temps or a double decoction?

I am thinking of trying this brew this weekend. In an attempt to increase the body of the beer I was thinking of mashing a bit higher, and considering adding some flaked oats or barley. Any thoughts?

Cheers.

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I was just talking to my wife about how we should brew this one up again. I wouldn't recommend a higher mash temperature, as I only got down to a 1.028 FG.

I have little familiarity with the advantages of a decoction mash (other than that there are a great deal of debate), but seems it does lend to a better body.

Keeping true to the beer I would not go for the oats/barley as it is not in the listed ingredients. However, if you can up the body without messing with the flavor, then go for it.

I was just enjoying a glass of this with the wife. It is an AMAZING beer, so tasty with so many things going on (well balanced though), and has scored well, but the body is the last thing needed. I am thinking I am going to brew it exactly the same, but with a decoction mash.

jcojr72 said:

Anyone thinking of giving this clone another shot? Seems like Tall_Yotie and CSI had great results with the one spot for improvement being the body. CSI, did you ever rebrew with higher mash temps or a double decoction?

I am thinking of trying this brew this weekend. In an attempt to increase the body of the beer I was thinking of mashing a bit higher, and considering adding some flaked oats or barley. Any thoughts?

Cheers.

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We're on variation 3 of this brew. 2 and 3 are still racked. We did up the flaked maize to 1 lb from a previously smaller weight. Our first was very flavorful and is just now losing some heat in bottle conditioning but lacked the body of a genuine Pannepot. We did double decoct on the 3rd variation so we're hoping to retain some of the polysach's and up the body.

CSI said:

We're on variation 3 of this brew. 2 and 3 are still racked. We did up the flaked maize to 1 lb from a previously smaller weight. Our first was very flavorful and is just now losing some heat in bottle conditioning but lacked the body of a genuine Pannepot. We did double decoct on the 3rd variation so we're hoping to retain some of the polysach's and up the body.

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I am getting the same regarding the heat loss, which is a step in the right direction.

How are variation 2 and 3 fairing at this time compared to how v1 was doing at the same time? Or is it too early to tell?

Tall_Yotie said:

I am getting the same regarding the heat loss, which is a step in the right direction.

How are variation 2 and 3 fairing at this time compared to how v1 was doing at the same time? Or is it too early to tell?

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Good question. Batch #2 From primary to secondary had an improvement in body over #1. The chilled wort from #3 was significantly heavier in body but this was unfermented so we don't know how it will fare yet. We'll report in the next few weeks when we get some time.

What was your carb pitch rate, (if any)? On #1 we pitched 11g of T-58 in our first batch, (possibly too aggressive).

For bottling I did not add anymore yeast. Carbed up just fine too, has gotten good remarks on it. If I can avoid adding yeast at bottling I will.

Brewing this right now. I decided to use .6 lbs of flaked oats in lieu of the flaked maize, and kept the 156 mash temp (single infusion). I understand that per Struisse flaked maize is part of the recipe, but doesn't flaked maize reduce the body of a beer? Anyhow, really looking forward to seeing how this one turns out. Thanks for all the research and posts in this thread!

I just kicked a keg of a Pannepot clone I brewed February 18th. Wish this thread had existed then but I did OK. My only mistake was caused by a typo — 1oz. of thyme instead of 1g of thyme. Lookout! I lovingly called the batch "Thyme Bomb." It was a really smooth quad but the thyme certainly made its presence known. Regardless, I still kicked the keg!

Hi there from Italy,
I'd like to brew a Pannepot clone and I have some questions:
I have a fresh wyeast 1762 (Belgian Abbey II), will it work instead of T-58?
Can I replace choccolate malt with black malt or roasted barley?
Cheers
Giorgio

giorgione said:

Hi there from Italy,
I'd like to brew a Pannepot clone and I have some questions:
I have a fresh wyeast 1762 (Belgian Abbey II), will it work instead of T-58?
Can I replace choccolate malt with black malt or roasted barley?
Cheers
Giorgio

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Greetings!

The wyeast1762 should do fine, just the T-58 is close to what they really use. For the chocolate malt, can't say I am 100% confident in this opinion, but I would use CarafaII instead (and a little less in amount), or black malt in the same way.

Tall_Yotie said:

Greetings!

The wyeast1762 should do fine, just the T-58 is close to what they really use. For the chocolate malt, can't say I am 100% confident in this opinion, but I would use CarafaII instead (and a little less in amount), or black malt in the same way.

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Thanks for advices.
I had a Pannepot last night, in order to bring recent memories into the clone.
I still don't feel so much ruling toasted tastes in the original, that's why I'm so hesitant to employ chocolate malt.

Tall_Yotie said:

entered it as a Specialty Belgian; Belg Dark Strong with coriander orange peel and sage. Notes were that the sage was not apparent (it was subtle so easy to miss),

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Just read through this full thread. This will end up on the to do list. One clarification: Sage? Or should that have been Thyme as both brewed recipes showed?

Sage brings me to aromas that I don't perceive in the Pannepot

I agree with you about the flaked maize reflections. But Pannepot has a bland sweetish recall, in my opinion brought by the flaked maize.
But I agree with you as well about the use of oats, for a more velvety contribution.
Probably it is not included in the original recipe, oats are not so diffused in Belgian brewing.

Quaker and Giorgione; Pannepot is reported to have sage in it. The sage is not a flavor you pick up directly as sage, but adds a savory note. Remember, spicing on this is not like a Christmas beer where the spices are the main note. These spices support it without adding an obvious flavor. If you want go ahead and reduce the sage, but I would not say to fully remove it.

The chocolate malt is also reported to be in Pannepot from the label. I tasted my clone vs the real deal (hard to get in the US), and it tastes very similar. Mine is a little hotter, but that may have been due to fermentation temps getting a bit high (and the fact that the ABV is rather high), and didn't read as thick in mouthfeel. That all though is process based, not ingredient based.

Where was the sage in the recipes? Both yours and CSI/SUU included thyme, not sage. I assumed the sage mention in the post I quoted was a typo.

Ack, yes, sorry. Thyme. For some reason those two wires are crossed in my brain sometimes. Thyme is what is in there. Thyme thyme thyme thyme thyme.