Oxygen in bottle neck after bottling beer

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TripHops

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Hi,

I have never noticed a problem with my beer oxidizing after aging in a bottle for a while but I am curious if eventually the O2 in the bottle neck will change the beer profile.

I always knew there would be a little oxygen in the bottle neck just before capping but as the CO2 pressure builds in the bottle, and since CO2 is heavier than O2, my thought is that it would always stay on the surface of the beer and keep the beer from oxidizing.

Is my assumption correct? Should I sprites my bottles with a little CO2 prior to bottling or will that even matter?

Just curious...

Thanks,
Trip
 
Does the fermentation in the bottles use up some of the oxygen?

Guess we might find out in a year or two when we try some properly aged bottles
 
The yeast need a little oxygen to carb the bottle. You cant get CO2 without O2. The little amount of oxygen should be gone after 2 weeks... That is why it takes 2 weeks to carb a bottle with yeast. I think this is right... It sounds good to me!!
 
The yeast need a little oxygen to carb the bottle. You cant get CO2 without O2. The little amount of oxygen should be gone after 2 weeks... That is why it takes 2 weeks to carb a bottle with yeast. I think this is right... It sounds good to me!!

If this is true, then how do you explain bottle bombs?
 
You cant get CO2 without O2.

You can't get carbon dioxide without oxygen but it doesn't have to be (and is not in fermentation) molecular oxygen. The oxygen comes from carbohydrate. In the case of fermenting wort where most of the carbohydrate is glucose or glucose polymers the reaction is:

C6H12O6 → 2C2H5OH + 2CO2

As for the OP. Oxidation is a complex and poorly understood subject. For example, the most insidious oxidized compound involved in beer staling, trans-2-nonenal, seems to be produced with strikingly low sensitivity to dissolved oxygen levels in the package.

Studies in the early 90s showed that during bottle condition yeast only reduce a portion of the oxygen in the headspace. As such I would consider pre-evacuating the bottle (it is hard to cap uncarbonated beer on foam but if you can, that works too) to be a best practice. Pratically speaking, it isn't necessary unless you really want to maximize shelf life. I would do it if I were bottle conditioning hoppy ales, but then I don't bottle condition hoppy ales.
 
If you just so slightly overfill your bottles with the wand, not only will they be uniformly filled, you will have only a little bit of air in the top when you remove the wand. Plus, after you fill the bottle, you should rest the bottle cap on top for 10 to 15 minutes to allow the yeast to start creating a little CO2 and push the air out. This way they create their own little blanket of CO2 first, then you crimp.
 
The yeast need a little oxygen to carb the bottle. You cant get CO2 without O2. The little amount of oxygen should be gone after 2 weeks... That is why it takes 2 weeks to carb a bottle with yeast. I think this is right... It sounds good to me!!

Yes, you can. For instance, you can get it from C6H12O6. Do you realize what forum you are posting on?

That little bit of oxygen might very well be gone, in the sense that it became involved in staling mechanisms.
 
The O2 in the headspace is not generally a problem. If you were very anal, you might purge the O2 out with a shot from your CO2 bottle. Most people who bottle don't have this. Then the best thing is to fill to the top and then pull the bottling wand out, leaving the proper headspace. Hopefully your beer has some residual Co2 in it from the ferment. If so, it will foam up a bit. Put the cap on the foam and crimp it on.

And I have been recommending O2 barrier caps since I started using them. They supposedly absorb O2 over time.

It takes a while for oxidation to become a problem in a bottle. Unless your transfer method introduced a bunch into the beer, or you stirred vigorously in the bottling bucket, you should be ok.
 
The best way to prevent any oxidation is simple. After you let the beer age a few weeks, cool it down slowly and let it chill for a few days. Then drink it, and enjoy it with friends. You will never have any oxidation problem and you will always have friends. But if for some reason you would like to save it for a year or so I would have to say the the little O2 left in the neck would be displaced or used and should not give any problems. But I would not risk it and revert to the my first method.
 
If this is true, then how do you explain bottle bombs?

- using too much sugar
- leaving too much headspace.

The more "air" you leave on top of your beer in the bottle, the more CO2 can build up there. And gasses have a natural tendency to expand. If it's allowed to expand too much: boom.

If there's less headspace, the CO2 will get dissolved in the beer.

But again, if there's too much suger in the bottle, it will explode anyway.
 
I'm gonna simply say to fill them up and cap em, don't overthink it. That tiny amount of oxygen in there isn't going to ruin anything. Chill out, and drink a homebrew :)
 
I would have to think that eventually, oxidation does occur due to the oxygen in the head space. After all, Old Ales often have (and maybe should have) that musty sherry-like flavor to them - which is usually a sign of oxidation. Then again, those types of beers are stored for a year or more before drinking.

I guess my point is - unless you plan on keeping them for a long time, and don't want the Old Ale flavor, then do something to purge the O2, otherwise, it goes down in the "Yeah, but you're over thinking it" category.
 
If I'm bottle conditioning and I'm planning on aging the beer I will use O2 barrier caps to absorb the O2 in the head space. Other wise I don't worry about it. If I bottle from the keg I loosely hold the uncrimped sanitized cap on the bottle and invert it back and forth and cap on the foam.
 
- using too much sugar
- leaving too much headspace.

The more "air" you leave on top of your beer in the bottle, the more CO2 can build up there. And gasses have a natural tendency to expand. If it's allowed to expand too much: boom.

If there's less headspace, the CO2 will get dissolved in the beer.

But again, if there's too much suger in the bottle, it will explode anyway.

I wrote: If this is true, then how do you explain bottle bombs?

You didn't answer the question. You are supposed to assume that he was correct when answering the question.
 
I wrote: If this is true, then how do you explain bottle bombs?

You didn't answer the question. You are supposed to assume that he was correct when answering the question.

Assuming he was correct...

1. Bottle in bottles purged of oxygen.
2. ???
2. Bottle bombs.

See, that was easy.
 
I would have to think that eventually, oxidation does occur due to the oxygen in the head space. After all, Old Ales often have (and maybe should have) that musty sherry-like flavor to them - which is usually a sign of oxidation. Then again, those types of beers are stored for a year or more before drinking.

I guess my point is - unless you plan on keeping them for a long time, and don't want the Old Ale flavor, then do something to purge the O2, otherwise, it goes down in the "Yeah, but you're over thinking it" category.

Old ales and other styles can get oxidized due to being less careful during the brewing and bottling. They can also oxidize due to O2 seeping in through the seal (cap or cork).

Fact is ALL beer will oxidize. There are components in the beer that will eventually cause oxidation. The purpose of being careful is to limit the amount of the additional O2 as much as reasonable.

It takes time for a small amount of O2 to become noticeable. With proper handling, the beer will generally be drank before this happens.

With improper handling, or over an extended amount of time, the oxidation levels increase until the become noticeable. The amount of O2 present in the bottle is inversely proportional to the time it takes to get to that level.

Some beers will not get past a "stale" flavor even being in the bottle for several years.
 
Just got back from working in a brewery on the bottling machine. The beer is already carbonated when they bottle but when it fills, a shot of hot water goes into it to cause foam to rise just before the cap goes on.
 
Hey can we get a section of the forum for "10th level beer nerds only"?

There are either a bunch of trolls on this thread so far or some folks have seriously flawed models of what is going on in their bottled beer.

Oxygen in the headspace will lead to oxidation over time. This is mitigated by beer that is bottle conditioning as the yeast will not only metabolize some of the oxygen for catabolism but also get rid of some via their superoxide and free radical elimination pathways.
For those of use who fill from keg, its simply a matter of generating enough foam to push out as much free air as possible.

BTW the headspace/carbonation issue works kind of like this: gas is compressible so CO2 can "live" in the headspace to the same partial pressure that it is dissolved in the liquid. When you open the bottle, pressurized CO2 will quickly escape into the environment thus liberating X volume of CO2 from the container. If there is less headspace, a greater volume of CO2 will be proportionately partitioned into the liquid, will not escape right away and will result in a more carbonated beverage than the first bottle that had more headspace.

Now what was the question again???
;)
 
This is mitigated by beer that is bottle conditioning as the yeast will not only metabolize some of the oxygen for catabolism but also get rid of some via their superoxide and free radical elimination pathways.

It appears you are qualified to join the new section of the forum you propose.
 
I wrote: If this is true, then how do you explain bottle bombs?

You didn't answer the question. You are supposed to assume that he was correct when answering the question.

It doesn't matter if he's right or not. Bottlebombs will get caused by the 2 items I mentioned.
 
Hi guys,

Thanks for all the replies to my post. I certainly will take all variety of comments into consideration. However, I believe I might have caused the wide variety of colorful comments by not being more specific in my original post...so I will take the hit.

Basically, the reason for my question about O2 in the head space is for bottling Belgians and Bavarian Hefes which use the sediment at the bottom of the bottle to enhance the original flavors. For instance the Paulaner and Franzikaner beers get most of their clove/banana flavors from the yeast sediments. That is why they instruct to pore slowly then swish the bottle to release the sediment and pore it into the glass. Strong Belgian Ales have the same recommended poring instructions.

Aging these types of beers take a few months for them to mature. Some Strong Belgian ales can age for up to 5 years a.k.a Matilda from Goose Island Brewery, Chicago. However, waiting 5 years to drink a beer is certainly out of the question, as far as I am concerned, but waiting a few months seems reasonable. Hence my concern with O2 in the head space while these types of beers are aging and maturing as not to change the profile of the beer.

From all the comments, it seems like 1) spritzing the head space with CO2 before capping would be best, if you could do it or 2) foaming through the head space then capping seems easy enough and practical or 3) bottling from the keg and hitting the head space with a little foam squirt before capping, are all practical methods.

Is there any others worth trying?

Thanks,
Trip
 
Basically, the reason for my question about O2 in the head space is for bottling Belgians and Bavarian Hefes which use the sediment at the bottom of the bottle to enhance the original flavors. For instance the Paulaner and Franzikaner beers get most of their clove/banana flavors from the yeast sediments. That is why they instruct to pore slowly then swish the bottle to release the sediment and pore it into the glass. Strong Belgian Ales have the same recommended poring instructions.

I like mine mit hefe too, but it's not for the banana and clove flavors. Those flavors aren't hanging out in the sediment.
 
First beer I bottled only filled 15oz I'm the last 22oz bottle. Needless to say after a month I opened it and it was horrible. So extreme headspace can ruin your beer.
 
If I'm bottle conditioning and I'm planning on aging the beer I will use O2 barrier caps to absorb the O2 in the head space. Other wise I don't worry about it. If I bottle from the keg I loosely hold the uncrimped sanitized cap on the bottle and invert it back and forth and cap on the foam.
Serious question here. How do you know that the O2 barrier caps haven't had their fill of oxygen before you even get the? Unless they came vacuum packed I'd have my doubts.
 
Hermit said:
Serious question here. How do you know that the O2 barrier caps haven't had their fill of oxygen before you even get the? Unless they came vacuum packed I'd have my doubts.

I think they are activated by becoming wet.
 
Yeah the description on them mention that they are moisture activated. There is a bit of a debate on wither to sanitize O2 barrier caps or not. Some say that starsan would damage the O2 barrier. I just use a spray bottle of starsan to sanitize the cap just before I cap the beer.
 
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