Hefe with Wyeast 3068

I'm going to be brewing a german hefe and ordered 3068 yeast to do the job. It sounds like the strain is known for both banana and clove esters. My goal is to try to increase the clove component. In looking around, some seem to say lower fermentation temps would help this. Given this, I was thinking of fermenting at 65F. Any thoughts?

Cold is good. Wyeast's description of 3068 also says you can minimize esters by overpitching, if you can make a big enough starter.

For my pitching rate I was planning to follow Mr. Malty's starter suggestions. You think I should go even higher?

I just read that clove is actually from phenols, not esters. Maybe this is why lower temps might work? Lowering the number of esters and allowing the phenols to come through?

Just found the link you must have read on the Wyeast site. Guess that answers my questions. Thanks.

Yes, clove flavors come from 4-vinyl guiacol, a phenol. Assuming you have an OG of 1.050 and a stir plate, Mr Malty suggests a 1 liter starter with one smack pack. Maybe increase that by 50% with a 1.5L starter? I've never intentionally overpitched - other than reusing yeast cakes, which I don't do anymore - so I can only guess.

This paper suggests you can also inhibit esterification by overaerating the wort. Apparently O2 inhibits the transferase enzyme that sticks an acetyl group onto ethanol. If you have an O2 setup, maybe you could double the time you aerate. PM me with your email if you can't see the full paper and I can send you a PDF.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/v3l3658v53x55w43/

My (untrained) sensory perception is that esters overwhelm phenols, like rock beats scissors.

I don't have O2 but thanks for the other info.

As long as we are on the subject, what do you use for the viability on Mr. Malty's calculator? It seems more like guesswork than anything else.

You're going to get plenty of banana even with overpitching and a colder ferment. I just finished a batch with this yeast that was fermented at 59-62F and I still think it has too much banana. I split this batch and did the other half with 3333. The 3333 has less banana and a better clove balance, IMO. I've made a decision to stop using 3068.

Also, 3068 is explosive, so watch out. When they say 33% headspace they mean it. Give yourself plenty of room and use a blowoff tube for the first few days. I've blown up 2 fermenters total and both were with this yeast.

I enter the date printed on the smack pack. It looks like Mr. Malty's viability calculations assume a ~20% drop in viability every month. That seems like a lot to me - I've made starters from 6-month old packs with no ill effect.

I don't know of a better way to determine viability numbers other than selective staining, which requires a microscope and some specialty chemicals.

http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer-brewing/brewers_yeast/yeast_viability_replacement.htm

And I am not a big fan of 3068 for chicagobrews's reasons. I haven't used it since my days of extract brewing, so maybe things would be different now that I've improved my skills.

Another yeast you might consider is WY3944, Belgian Wit. It may not be style-appropriate for a German hefe but it definitely favors phenols over esters. I've used it a lot and can attest to Wyeast's description.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=69

Damn. I already ordered the yeast. 2 smack packs. Not going to waste them so I guess I'll just make a good starter to overpitch, ferment at 64 (lowest recommended) and hope for the best. Then again, true german hefes should have fairly high esters anyway.

I've used 3068 a few times and all of them blew out. Give yourself plenty of headspace as suggested and the blow off tube. Last time I did it, it also blew out of the the half filled 2 liter bottle I ran the blow off tube to.

just finished 3068 in an orange hefe. awesome i must say. love the banana and clove. Mine also had a nice earthy-ness to it, i think similar to a saison. Could just be me tho.
Mine did not blow out, but it definitely hit the lid of the 6.5 gal bucket.

Lowering your mash temperature will add more clove. Aim for 151 F.

Lol I was just going to ask this again. I use 3068 in all my hefes, I love this yeast. I ferment 3068 very warm, mid 70's strong banana and lots of earthy flavors, yes very much like a saison. When I have fermented this colder, mid 60's, I didnt like the results, very strong bananna and clove and tasted off.

Arneba28 said:

Lol I was just going to ask this again. I use 3068 in all my hefes, I love this yeast. I ferment 3068 very warm, mid 70's strong banana and lots of earthy flavors, yes very much like a saison. When I have fermented this colder, mid 60's, I didnt like the results, very strong bananna and clove and tasted off.

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So, you've had a bad experience with low temps? And strong banana on both? What about blow-off with regard to temps? I was contemplating doing 5 gallons in a 6.5 gallon pail...

Yeah I have had to use a blow off for a 5 gal in a standard ale pail. Yeah low temps were not kind to my hefe. Moderate to high temps always gave me a good balance, altleast for my tastes.

I just made a hefe and a weizenbock with this strain. I pitched both at 62 and conducted most of the fermentation at 62-65, then ramped up at the end. Regular pitch rate, regular amount of O2.

They both have a nice balance of clove and banana. Neither is too overpowering.

Could you be getting more bannana then clove, or unbalanced flavors, because of not doing the 4-vinyl gluicanol rest at or around 114F?

chicagobrew said:

You're going to get plenty of banana even with overpitching and a colder ferment. I just finished a batch with this yeast that was fermented at 59-62F and I still think it has too much banana. I split this batch and did the other half with 3333. The 3333 has less banana and a better clove balance, IMO. I've made a decision to stop using 3068.

Also, 3068 is explosive, so watch out. When they say 33% headspace they mean it. Give yourself plenty of room and use a blowoff tube for the first few days. I've blown up 2 fermenters total and both were with this yeast.

Click to expand...

+1 to this. I have primary going right now with this yeast. I made a starter with 1 cup DME and 4 cups of water, pitched at high krausen, and aerated it like crazy. I woke up the next day to wort spilling out over the airlock. I quickly attached a blow off tube for a day, then fixed an airlock back on. I came home from work today to an overflowing airlock again. I put the blow off tube back on and it will stay there for a few more days.

Since I have this going right now, about which temperature would give me something closest to Franziskaner? I did a decoction mash - rested at 122 for 30 minutes, then raised it to 154 for 60 minutes - 90 minute mash total. It's fermenting fairly cold 65-68 right now in my kegerator. I've had bad experiences with 3068 at high temps. I always get a weird off-flavor that is like fusel alcohol.

68F is about as high as I'd go. Higher than that I get the fusel alcohol flavors that you speak of.

Ferment at 62 F and you will nail higher clove over banana without issue.

I've used 3068 twice. Once at around 70 F and once around 60 F. I liked my results at 70 F better. Truth in disclosure is that the one at 70 was a hefe extract and the one at 60 was a dunkelweiss extract.

- at 60 F I got a mild banana, spicy, with lemon flavors

- at 70 F I got a little more banana, but not overwhelmingly so. However, the beer overall seemed better balanced. It still had the spicy flavors with a little less lemon.

The difference between the two was very very minimal in my opinion.