This is a new one, interesting......

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smizak

smizak

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So my GF gave some of my beers to her assistant to try, he's a burgeoning beer geek. What's interesting is that my Saison gave him an allergic reaction. He said his lips and face blew up as well as hives. He said it happened right away so the chance of coincidence is pretty low. He's pretty allergic to everything I guess, but all my other beers didn't affect him that way.

What's even more interesting is that this particular Saison was slightly soured by a sour mash I conducted using the lacto from the grain itself. No live lacto was added after the boil. I know my girlfriend had a reaction from Kambucha tea, so I wonder if the lacto or some other bug had pumped out something that would cause an allergic reaction. Any one ever hear of something like this happening?
 
I've never heard of anyone being allergic to lactic acid, that make sense though.
 
That's the only thing of which I can think. Unless you put spices in your saison (if you do shame on you... jk). Otherwise all of the ingredients are the same and that just leaves lactic acid.

I'm actually slightly allergic to citric acid. I can ingest it just fine, but if I'm handling a tomato I wear gloves because it irritates my skin.
 
Allow me to qualify the above post.

I know the ingredients from beer to beer is different but you're still dealing in malt, hops, water and yeast.

Also does your saison have wheat in it? If so do your other beers you gave him have wheat? That might be a factor.
 
Homebrewtastic said:
Unless you put spices in your saison (if you do shame on you... jk).
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I'm offended you would even suggest I'd do such a thing!!!! ;)

Homebrewtastic said:
Also does your saison have wheat in it? If so do your other beers you gave him have wheat? That might be a factor.
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Yes, the brown ale I gave him had 1/2lb of wheat as well. Don't think he has a wheat allergy.
 
could be any number of things produced by the bugs in the sour mashed saison....might be lactic acid, might be something else.
 
I've had an allergic reaction to a beer once and I'm not allergic to anything. It was a brown ale. It was about my 10th all grain batch . It never happened before and it hasn't happened since, and I've probably done about 80 ag batches by now. After I kegged the batch i would taste little samples every day. I started to get itchy and irratated around my eyes. My eyes were like this for a week straight and I never even associated it with the beer. Then Friday rolled around and I drank 3 pints of it Friday night. I woke up saturday and my face looked like Hitch after he ate that seafood. It got worse throughout the day too. I finally went to urgent care and got a steroid shot. I didn't even think about the beer until my girlfriend said something about it. Needless to say I dumped it. I don't have a clue what caused it but i do know it was in the beer. I've used all the same ingredients that were in that beer at one point or another and it has never occured again. I know alot of people are going to say it wasn't because of the beer, but trust me it was.
I assume it was an infection of some sort but the beer tasted good.
 
Considering the amouint of lactic acid produced by your own body I think it is doubtful that the tiny amount in a saison would cause a reaction. Given that you mentioned he was allergic to all sorts of stuff it could have been something that "contaminated" your beer. I mean something like peanuts that were in a grain bin or some other allergen that accidently made it's way into the raw ingredients.
 
Most people doing sour mashes or using lacto cultures are very aware of the easily detectable inferiority of simply using acidulated malt or straight lactic acid to sour a beer. Only reason I can see for this is that the bacteria produces other stuff as well, which isn't really surprising or anything. Maybe it was a different product of the same bacteria.

But then again, just about anything can grow in a sour mash, so assuming it's lacto-related is a bit much. We try to control it by maintaining as anaerobic an environment as possible, maintaining good temps, and even skimming off the top of the grain bed is good practice, but lacto isn't the ONLY thing that survives in these conditions. And if you were a bit lax in keeping the temps within range the ENTIRE time, something else could easily have taken hold. My guess is that the guy would probably be fine with a beer soured by a pitched culture, but I'd be careful with sour mashes with him in the future.
 
emjay said:
Most people doing sour mashes or using lacto cultures are very aware of the easily detectable inferiority of simply using acidulated malt or straight lactic acid to sour a beer. Only reason I can see for this is that the bacteria produces other stuff as well, which isn't really surprising or anything. Maybe it was a different product of the same bacteria.

But then again, just about anything can grow in a sour mash, so assuming it's lacto-related is a bit much. We try to control it by maintaining as anaerobic an environment as possible, maintaining good temps, and even skimming off the top of the grain bed is good practice, but lacto isn't the ONLY thing that survives in these conditions. And if you were a bit lax in keeping the temps within range the ENTIRE time, something else could easily have taken hold. My guess is that the guy would probably be fine with a beer soured by a pitched culture, but I'd be careful with sour mashes with him in the future.
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A real lacto fermentation is soooo much more complex than just adding acid or acid malt, completely agree.

I'm assuming some other bug did it too. I'm careful to keep them over 100F and place saranwrap on top of the grist to keep as much oxygen out as possible. If it was a non-lacto bug that did it, it's undetectable to me in terms of off flavors. In fact that Saison just scored a 44 and a silver at Homebrewalley 5 in NYC last weekend, judges made no references to any off flavors, actually stated that there were none. It made me think though, I see it stated so often here that nothing growing in homebrew can hurt anyone, it will just taste bad. I never really believed that and this confirms it.
 
smizak said:
A real lacto fermentation is soooo much more complex than just adding acid or acid malt, completely agree.

I'm assuming some other bug did it too. I'm careful to keep them over 100F and place saranwrap on top of the grist to keep as much oxygen out as possible. If it was a non-lacto bug that did it, it's undetectable to me in terms of off flavors. In fact that Saison just scored a 44 and a silver at Homebrewalley 5 in NYC last weekend, judges made no references to any off flavors, actually stated that there were none. It made me think though, I see it stated so often here that nothing growing in homebrew can hurt anyone, it will just taste bad. I never really believed that and this confirms it.
Click to expand...

How does this confirm your concern? You have an untested individual drinking an untested beer without a clinical evaluation after the fact. Nothing you have said indicated any kind of infection. Any kind of weird bug that was growing in the mash would be killed off by the boil and subsequent fermentation.

Just want to make sure people realize how safe this hobby is. (At least when you exclude equipment hazards):eek:
 
theredben said:
How does this confirm your concern? You have an untested individual drinking an untested beer without a clinical evaluation after the fact. Nothing you have said indicated any kind of infection. Any kind of weird bug that was growing in the mash would be killed off by the boil and subsequent fermentation.

Just want to make sure people realize how safe this hobby is. (At least when you exclude equipment hazards):eek:
Click to expand...

I'm not worried about killing anyone, just that if you're not careful and give something to the wrong person there can be consequences. A previous poster indicated that something similar happened to him. There are a lot of problems with people reacting to home-brewed Kambucha too. It's the by-products of bacterial growth that could possibly cause a reaction, not the bugs themselves. Maybe confirm is strong, but I'll just think to ask before I give someone a beer that I've done a weird fermentation with.
 
Doesn't mean it was a dangerous compound (the bacteria itself would obviously be dead.) Just like boiling will kill the lacto but not lactic acid, similar things happen with other bacterias. Clostridium produces butyric acid, for instance.

The fact that he reacted so severely and nobody else has had any reaction at all would actually indicate that it wasn't a toxic compound. Assuming it was something in the beer at all (likely, but not a certainty), it was clearly an allergic reaction, and allergens aren't really toxic - it's just that in a minority of people, their immune systems produce a severe reaction needlessly in response to otherwise harmless compounds. Those people just have to be careful, but with most allergies you don't really know about them UNTIL you react to them. Asking them is probably useless - would this guy have turned the beer down if you mentioned the sour mash and the potential for allergens?

It's an unfortunate fact of life but it's pretty much impossible to "sterilize" (for lack of a better word) allergens from a food product - they are generally produced by living things, but are not alive themselves, and are not infectious agents. Beer cannot de-allergenize things. If you thought beer was somehow supposed to be hypoallergenic... well, that's kind of ridiculous and I don't think anyone was ever trying to imply that.
 
My point in posting is that it's interesting that this beer caused a reaction in someone when no other beer had ever. Something to think about and consider. :mug:
 
theredben said:
Considering the amouint of lactic acid produced by your own body I think it is doubtful that the tiny amount in a saison would cause a reaction. Given that you mentioned he was allergic to all sorts of stuff it could have been something that "contaminated" your beer. I mean something like peanuts that were in a grain bin or some other allergen that accidently made it's way into the raw ingredients.
Click to expand...

Gotta disagree...and add +1 to homebrewtastic's post. My mother can eat Mangos, but if she touches the things she breaks out in hives. She's allergic to the oils on it.

The guy broke out in his lips and facial area...beer touches lips when drinking, just a thought. Lactic acid could be a culprit.
 
TheMan said:
Gotta disagree...and add +1 to homebrewtastic's post. My mother can eat Mangos, but if she touches the things she breaks out in hives. She's allergic to the oils on it.

The guy broke out in his lips and facial area...beer touches lips when drinking, just a thought. Lactic acid could be a culprit.
Click to expand...


I think you need some evidence to back up a claim like that.
 
TheMan said:
Gotta disagree...and add +1 to homebrewtastic's post. My mother can eat Mangos, but if she touches the things she breaks out in hives. She's allergic to the oils on it.

The guy broke out in his lips and facial area...beer touches lips when drinking, just a thought. Lactic acid could be a culprit.
Click to expand...

Hm. Maybe the oil the grocer or shipper puts on it to make it shiny? I hate that stuff.
 
smizak said:
My point in posting is that it's interesting that this beer caused a reaction in someone when no other beer had ever. Something to think about and consider. :mug:
Click to expand...

It's a beer infected with a large amount of bacteria producing all sorts of weird stuff. The fact he hasn't encountered it before isn't really strange at all, especially when you described the guy's beer-geekdom as burgeoning. There's really nothing to think about beyond "thank god I don't have THAT allergy!", and it definitely doesn't challenge the notion that nothing naturally present in beer can make you ill.

If an allergy/sensitivity to something in beer is all that novel an idea to you, I invite you to check out the gluten-free forum and tell everybody there how crazy it is.

TheMan said:
Gotta disagree...and add +1 to homebrewtastic's post. My mother can eat Mangos, but if she touches the things she breaks out in hives. She's allergic to the oils on it.

The guy broke out in his lips and facial area...beer touches lips when drinking, just a thought. Lactic acid could be a culprit.
Click to expand...

Your mother seems to be allergic to something on the skin of the mango. An allergy is an allergy. If she for some reason ate the skin, she'd likely have an even more severe reaction, but people don't really eat the skin, so it's not an issue you're likely to run into. She may be suffering from some other sort of skin condition/hypersensitivity, especially if she can't even touch the flesh of the fruit itself, but while this is possible, it's also very unlikely (based on the limited information presented.)

A mango is a bit more complicated than lactic acid though. A mango has hundreds of different chemicals within it, and many are present in different concentrations in different parts of the fruit, so as far allergies go, what you're saying can make sense with a mango. Lactic acid is one simple molecule, so none of that makes sense, not to mention that TRUE allergens are pretty exclusively protein-based, with the exception of a few chemicals that provoke an allergic reaction in a HUGE group of people, like the chemical found in poison ivy, which works by actually modifying the skin cells it comes into contact with beyond the immune system's recognition, but even in that situation, the actual allergen is technically your own (modified) skin.

And then there's the issue with lactic acid being present in all sorts of foods. If lactic acid was the problem, then not only shouldn't he be able to drink any sour beers, but surely he would have noticed something similar with foods like buttermilk (and by extension, foods like biscuits, fried chicken, pancakes etc) and ESPECIALLY yogurt.
 
I've been having weird allergic reactions to saisonss too. I'm from San Diego and we love our local craft beer. My first saison was one from a local brewery called Lost Abbey, and I didn't have a problem. This beer got me hooked on Saison's, but in the last couple of months, I've now had reactions after drinking a saison from another local brewery and from the new saison from Anchor Steam. My research into a possible connection is what brought me to this site. I have a lot of allergies to environmental allergens and fruits, so I think there is probably some kind of cross reaction.
 
I have a buddy who is a big IPA fan. Drinks them almost exclusively. He had a Great Lakes Chillwave IPA and had the same reaction as above. I can't imagine what would be different ina Chillwave than any other IPA, but his face blew up like a balloon.
 
Sean said:
Hm. Maybe the oil the grocer or shipper puts on it to make it shiny? I hate that stuff.
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emjay said:
Your mother seems to be allergic to something on the skin of the mango. An allergy is an allergy. If she for some reason ate the skin, she'd likely have an even more severe reaction, but people don't really eat the skin, so it's not an issue you're likely to run into. She may be suffering from some other sort of skin condition/hypersensitivity, especially if she can't even touch the flesh of the fruit itself, but while this is possible, it's also very unlikely (based on the limited information presented.)

A mango is a bit more complicated than lactic acid though. A mango has hundreds of different chemicals within it, and many are present in different concentrations in different parts of the fruit, so as far allergies go, what you're saying can make sense with a mango. Lactic acid is one simple molecule, so none of that makes sense, not to mention that TRUE allergens are pretty exclusively protein-based, with the exception of a few chemicals that provoke an allergic reaction in a HUGE group of people, like the chemical found in poison ivy, which works by actually modifying the skin cells it comes into contact with beyond the immune system's recognition, but even in that situation, the actual allergen is technically your own (modified) skin.

And then there's the issue with lactic acid being present in all sorts of foods. If lactic acid was the problem, then not only shouldn't he be able to drink any sour beers, but surely he would have noticed something similar with foods like buttermilk (and by extension, foods like biscuits, fried chicken, pancakes etc) and ESPECIALLY yogurt.
Click to expand...


Mangos are related to the poison ivy plants and there is urushiol, the oil that people are allergic to in the poison ivy/oak/sumac plants, in the skins of the fruit and tree sap. That can explain why she blows up when touching Mango skins.

http://www.mangomaven.com/to-eat-or-not-eat-the-peel/

The more you know...
Nbc_the_more_you_know.jpg
 
DrunkleJon said:
Mangos are related to the poison ivy plants and there is urushiol, the oil that people are allergic to in the poison ivy/oak/sumac plants, in the skins of the fruit and tree sap. That can explain why she blows up when touching Mango skins.

http://www.mangomaven.com/to-eat-or-not-eat-the-peel/

The more you know...
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110721153339/logopedia/images/2/2c/Nbc_the_more_you_know.jpg[IMG][/quote]

This is true. I am allergic to the oil on Mango skins. Not fun having a rash all around your mouth lookin like ronald mcdonald.
Click to expand...
 

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