Issues with Midwest Supplies Extract kits?

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Brad

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Has anyone had the trouble I have had with Midwest Supplies Extract Kits? I have tried several kits from midwest supplies the happy holiday ale, Belgian wit and a couple others and they all end up tasting the same or they don't turn out the way that I would expect them to. Has anyone had any issues like this? It is beginning to get a little frustrating because of the way they turn out. I almost don't want to try another kit because of the fear of how it will turn out. It doesn't even taste like a homebrew or a beer in general.
 
Hey Brad, I've used alot of midwests kits and nearly everyone has beed exellent. I have brewed their Liberty cream ale, smooth nut brown ale, hophead double IPA, Swartzwalds black lager, Irish stout, big river brown ale, oatmeal stout, porter, and a couple meads. all were good. can't say any tasted like the others. try fermenting at a cooler temperature.

I prefered stouts and brown ales in the past but the Hophead double IPA, Liberty cream ale and Black lager are by far my favorite brews.
 
am drinking the liberty cream ale from midwest.. tastes great!

I have the lemon coriander weiss kit waiting to be brewed on thursday. midwest is great! takes literally one day to ship to my house.
 
Why don't you post a little more about your process and I'm sure someone can chime in and make suggestions on things you can change or improve to get your brew tasting better.

I've tasted quite a few Midwest kits too: Cream Stout, Cologne Kolsch, Aussie Light Ale, etc. and they were all very tasty.
 
I've used midwest kits without problems. Two things to consider. 1) yeast makes a big difference, if you just use the muntons that comes with the kit instead of the liquid, you'll have a yeast factor as I know that specific yeast needs months (two to three) in the bottle to floculate out and really take some yeasty flavor out of the brew. That could be your issue if you've just been using the dry yeast. 2) How long are you conditioning your beer before you drink it? Drinking green beer will cause it to taste different than properly bottled and conditioned beer. Read Revvy's blog entry on "Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning" to get an idea of good practices. If you're drinking it after only a week or two in the bottle, try letting it sit around for a few more weeks before giving it a try and you'll be amazed at the change.
 
I'm going to blame "operator error," and suggest that you post your brewing/sanitzation process. More than likely, like Kammee said, you're not giveing the beers enough time. Either in the fermenter or in the bottle.
 
I've brewed 4 or 5 kits from them and all have turned out fantastic. In fact I've brewed their "Hank's Hefeweizen" a few times. Guys in my home brew club love it and can't tell it's an extract.
 
It's been years for me, but I used to get kits from Midwest and they were never a problem. Its a strange concept, quite frankly, to blame the "kit" because the kit is nothing more than a combination of the bulk ingredients they all carry anyway. The malt is just regular Briess malt or extract measured and bagged, the speciality grains are the normal grains, the hops the normal hop pellets. There is nothing in the "kit" that is some sort of unique ingredient that you wouldn't normally get from buying the ingredients seperate.

I second the motion, detail your process and I bet the wise brewers here can help improve it.
 
I like their kits. The only thing I wish I could change is using dry extract instead of the liquid.
 
I used close to ten kits from them and never had problems. The only problems I had with their kits was when I used Muntons yeast. That yeast has a weird flavor which I dont like. I used leftover Muntons yeast on AHS Wheat stout and could taste it in it as well. MW Hank's Hefe is amazing and I will be ordering from them some day.
 
I used a few Midwest kits when I first started brewing and they turned out great.
Hanks Hefe & the HopHead IPA were awsome.
I stopped using them, but only because they never add any new kits!
 
I've had great results with all the midwest kits (Java Stout, Porter, Apple Ale, Liberty Cream Ale. Currently fermenting Big Ben Pale Ale, Copper Ale, and Oktoberfest Lager). The Java Stout and Porter were pretty similar tasting, but the others have been great!
 
My process and recipes are under a few other posts. First AG Batch, and Everythings Bitter. Im not blaming the kit just anyone I Have talked to has not been able to pinpoint it down. And I am getting frustrated. I upgrade my yeasts to the wyeast. I just recently brewed there belgian wit and it has a funkey taste like I got when I brewed there Happy holiday ale. Both with the upgraded yeast. I first easyclean everthing, scrub, then I star san everthing so I doubt its my cleaning process. Then I follow the kits instructions step by step. Then I let it ferment the Belgian wit I went till the fg stayed the same for three days. I don't bottle I put it in a keg so I let it sit till carbed and then wait a week or two to settle. It was when i took a taste test I was dissapointed. None of my beers taste like beer like the homebrew or like the microbrew taste to it. They taste just off and not really like beer. Don't know what to do
 
I guess I can't speak for those kits as I have never tried em. just did an Irish stout tonight, and even unfinished it tasted good. I almost always use dry yeast but I make up a 1 liter starter. I always hear people complain about muntons but can't say I've ever had a bad batch.
 
Sorry, I don't mean to offend as I am also rather new at this process, but is it possible it's the kegging. I don't know that process at all since I simply bottle everything but it seems to me that funky tastes can come from the bottling end as well (beyond the brewing). Can you bottle a 6pack or so from your next batch (before kegging) and compare those (or is that crazy)?

Good luck
 
I've only bottled and drank 2 MW kits but both were spot on. I have 3 kits in fermentors right at this moment (bottling Liberty Cream Ale tomorrow) along with a mead and a couple more stock piled to brew. So far things have been good. I used Mutton's in an Amber Ale and it was awesome. But since I have switched to all White Labs Vials. Maybe your just fermenting at to high of temps? You could always try a NB kit and see what happens.
 
My process and recipes are under a few other posts. First AG Batch, and Everythings Bitter. Im not blaming the kit just anyone I Have talked to has not been able to pinpoint it down. And I am getting frustrated. I upgrade my yeasts to the wyeast. I just recently brewed there belgian wit and it has a funkey taste like I got when I brewed there Happy holiday ale. Both with the upgraded yeast. I first easyclean everthing, scrub, then I star san everthing so I doubt its my cleaning process. Then I follow the kits instructions step by step. Then I let it ferment the Belgian wit I went till the fg stayed the same for three days. I don't bottle I put it in a keg so I let it sit till carbed and then wait a week or two to settle. It was when i took a taste test I was dissapointed. None of my beers taste like beer like the homebrew or like the microbrew taste to it. They taste just off and not really like beer. Don't know what to do

What was your fermentation temperature, and how long did you leave it in the primary before racking to the keg? Did you make a starter for the liquid yeast?
 
Starters IMO are a waste of time I have never had a problem with fermentation starting, finishing, or even having problems with stuck fermentation so I don't waste my time and risk getting an infection due to the yeast being in a bottle. Just right out of the package is the way I go. My fermentation temperatures stay right at 68 degrees in my basement. And that is where they stay. I leave it in the primary until it is done fermenting depending on the kit and how long the yeast take to do what they do. Anywhere from one week to four weeks. My first AG I left for longer than I should almost 3 months just due to not having time but it still turned out drinkable.
 
Starters IMO are a waste of time I have never had a problem with fermentation starting, finishing, or even having problems with stuck fermentation so I don't waste my time and risk getting an infection due to the yeast being in a bottle. Just right out of the package is the way I go. My fermentation temperatures stay right at 68 degrees in my basement. And that is where they stay. .

Well Brad, that's probably a good indication of why you're having issues with your beers tasting like crap, IMHO. ;)

It's really a good idea to make starters when using ANY liguid yeast for all beers above 1.020 OG...

The biggest reason I suggest folks make a starter is if you make one you'll have peace of mind.

And you won't be starting an "is my yeast dead" thread in a couple of days.:D

Making a starter first insures that your yeast is still alive and viable before you dump it in your beer. You will be less likely to start one of those "is my yeast dead?" threads that are on here every day.

You will also ensure that you have enough yeast usually the tubes and smack packs are a lot less yeast that you really should use for healthy fermentation.

Making a starter also usually means your beer will take off sooner, because the first thing that the little buggers do in the presence of wort (whether in a flask or in a fermenter) is have an orgy to reproduce enough cells to do the job...So it won't take such a long time in the fermenter since they started doing it in the flask.

Additionally it is better for the yeast to consume and reproduce incrementally rather than just dumping them into the fermenter...The yeast will be less stressed out than if you just dump them in.

Stressed out yeast can lead to a lot of off flavors...maybe even (though rare) the dreaded autolysis....Or the curse of 1.030....getting a stuck fermentation because the yeast have bit the dust.

So making a starter proves your yeast is still healthy, allows you to grow enough yeast to do the job, cuts down on lag time, and ensures that you will not get off flavors or stuck ferementations from stressed out yeast.

Also has to do with the actual pitch rates of the smack packs and tubes, and has to do with the data that Jamil Z has on his mr malty website.

I'll quote some of it, but really you should look at the stuff there;

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Ales & Lagers

The general consensus on pitching rates is that you want to pitch around 1 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato. A little less for an ale, a little more for a lager. George Fix states about 1.5 million for a lager and 0.75 million for an ale in his book, An Analysis of Brewing Techniques. Other literature cites a slightly higher amount. I'm going with Fix's numbers and that is what the pitching calculator uses.
The Math

If you're curious, here is the simple math to calculate the number of cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast (0.75 million for an ale, 1.5 million for a lager), for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

* There is about 3785 milliliters in a gallon. There are about 20,000 milliliters in 5.25 gallons.

* A degree Plato is about 1.004 of original gravity. Just divide the OG by 4 to get Plato (e.g., 1.048 is 12 degrees Plato).

So, for a 1.048 wort pitching into 5.25 gallons you need about 180 billion cells.

(750,000) X (20,000) X (12) = 180,000,000,000

As an easy to remember rough estimate, you need about 15 billion cells for each degree Plato or about 4 billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons of wort. If you want a quick way of doing a back of the envelope estimate, that is really close to 0.75 billion cells for each point of gravity per gallon of wort. Double that to 1.5 billion for a lager.
Pitching From Tubes, Packs, or Dry Yeast

Both White Labs and Wyeast make fantastic products and you can't go wrong with either one. There are differences between their strains and each brand has pluses and minuses yet neither is better than the other across the board. Use the brand your local homebrew shop carries, if you need a way to decide.

A White Labs tube has between 70 and 120 billion cells of 100% viable yeast, depending on the yeast strain. Some cells are much larger than others and there are more or less per ml based on size. (The information on the White Labs web site stating 30 to 50 billion cells is out of date.) We can just assume there are around 100 billion very healthy yeast. You would need 2 tubes if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts.

A Wyeast Activator pack (the really big ones) and the pitchable tubes have an average of 100 billion cells of 100% viable yeast. The smaller packs are around 15-18 billion cells. You would need 2 of the large packs if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts. For the small packs, you'd need eleven of them!


But to make it easier he has a great pitch rate calculator http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

And according to his numbers on his calculator, really any beer above 1.020, you should be making a starter for.

Me personally when I use liquid yeast I just make a starter. I may not be as anal as some brewers and makes sure that I have the exact cellcount for whatever gravity beer I am making, but I do make one for the above reasons I mentioned, namely peace of mid, and a reduction in lag time.

Seriously, that's one way to insure you have clean tasting beer, not to stress out or underpitch your yeast. You may find the "bothering" to make a starter will make even the less than best kit beer come out tasting great.

:mug:
 
Ok so what about when I use dry yeast, still been having the same issues. Its not just because I am not making a yeast starter. White labs tube yeasts don't say to make a starter on the tube they say to get to bring wort to a temperature then pitch. There are tons of brewers who do not make starters and there beer turn out perfect. I still have not had an issue with are my yeast dead. My SG and FG have both come out to be spot on so I don't know it can be not having a starter when those still come out to be where they are supposed to be? On my next batch I will make a starter but I still don't know if that is going to be the reason. I just want my beer to turn out great. Just getting frustrated not knowing why the off flavor. And afraid to make another batch in a fear of it being the same results. Thanks for the info on Starters I am adding it to my favorites for future reference.:mug:
 
No need for a starter with dry yeast, but understand, that for a lot of styles, dry yeast won't produce the desired result.

Also, 68 in the basement, while the air is that temperature, the fermenting wort could easily hit 78.... too hot for nearly all styles. And from my experience, dry yeast usually needs to ferment a little cooler than liquid yeast.
 
If you really want to pinpoint the problem, perhaps you should answer some of the questions about your process, particularly regarding fermentation temperature, time in primary, yeast type, etc.
 
I like i have said have already stated that in another thread Everythings bitter and first ag batch. My basement temp is 68 and the thermometer on my fermenting bucket says 68 so I don't know how that is an issue. my time in the primary like I said depends on when it reaches the FG I do not remove it from the primary until it reaches the FG suggested by the kit instructions and the yeast range from dry yeast to liquid white labs yeast depending on what i choose and what Midwest Pairs with there kits. these are all questions I have answered or stated before and you still question them. I am not going to type a page and a half of info when I have done it before and no one has answered anything. They just question me thinking I don't know anything about anything. I know for some beers fermentation temps change but I follow the Midwest Kit instructions on fermentation temps and time and FG and yeast and they have still turned out the same?
 
I like i have said have already stated that in another thread Everythings bitter and first ag batch. My basement temp is 68 and the thermometer on my fermenting bucket says 68 so I don't know how that is an issue. my time in the primary like I said depends on when it reaches the FG I do not remove it from the primary until it reaches the FG suggested by the kit instructions and the yeast range from dry yeast to liquid white labs yeast depending on what i choose and what Midwest Pairs with there kits. these are all questions I have answered or stated before and you still question them. I am not going to type a page and a half of info when I have done it before and no one has answered anything. They just question me thinking I don't know anything about anything. I know for some beers fermentation temps change but I follow the Midwest Kit instructions on fermentation temps and time and FG and yeast and they have still turned out the same?

And since you didn't provide us with thinks to those threads, we're not going to hunt it down...

You don't have to type a couple pages, you COULD just cut and paste what you wrote over there, here. Hell, that's how I answer the same noob questions day in and day out.

You don't think I wrote my LOOOONG answer about starters specifically for you did you? And If I did it's too hard for YOU to make it EASIER for us to help you?
 
The kit that I just put into the keg

Belgian Wit

Ingredients:
Belgian Wheat Wyeast #3944 (no starter)
6 lb. Wheat liquid malt extract
8 oz. Carapils specialty grains
2 oz. Hallertau pellet hops
1 Tbsp Coriander
1 Tbsp bitter orange

At boil I had six gallons I followed Midwest directions like I always do clean, Sanitize, Steep for 30min in 6.5 gallons at 155 Degrees, add malt extract while off burner, add 1 oz of hallertau hops for 60 min boil, add 1 Tbsp coriander and 1 Tbsp Orange peel for last ten min, add 1 oz of hallertau aroma hops for last 2 min. Boil till at five gallons

SG was 1.046

Then I used my new Counterflow chiller to cool down wort to 70 degrees close to my basement temp where it will ferment so I don't throw yeast into a fit. Then I let it ferment in the basement for a week and a half till I went to check the gravity. Where I took a sample and a taste. FG was not where it should be so I put lid back on and let it rest

FG was 1.010 after 3 weeks in primary
then I moved to secondary for a week and a half till it was pretty clear
then put it into my keg where it has been on gas for three days now

I don't need help with the calculations or anything like that I now have beersmith so I can figure those out on my own. Even if I am off in your opinions on anything like I said I followed midwests instructions not doing anything that was not on any of the recipe/process sheet. All of the numbers came out to where they should be so what would make my beer taste off/tart/bitter/the way yeast smell.
 
AHHH, there's the problem: Belgian yeast. ;) Sorry, I'm not a Belgian yeast fan at all.
 
the coriander came ground in the midwest kit but i used a grain bag with the coriander and the orange peel to contain it so it did not float around in the wort. And the belgain yeast is not the only yeast I have used I don't remember some of the other ones but still get the same strange taste in all of my beers I have done. It has ranged from dry muntons yeast to all differnet strains of white labs tube liquid yeast.
 
when you brew non-midwest kits do they turn out better?

This is a rather important question. Have you ever made a non-Midwest kit? If so, did it have the same off flavors?

I believe you mentioned a bitter taste in your first AG being addressed in another thread. I think I know the thread you're talking about, but I'm not a mind reader. If you're getting this problem with lots of different yeasts and having taste issues with both extract and all-grain, are you sure you don't have an issue with your water?
 
I have tried a few brewers best beer kits and they turned out the same. In my belgian wit I changed from my tap water to actual distilled water and I think it helped with the tart/bitter flavor a little but I don't know how to explain it maybe its the corriander in this kit? But like I said the beer taste almost the way that the fermentation smells through the airlock? it is just an odd taste. I checked my water and the ph was quite high to my supprise so I will no longer be using tap water. Just for my future process elimination.
:mug:
 
Hey if you wanna drive down here be my guest I have two kegs one with my first AG Liberty Cream ale and my newest one with the belgian wit!:D
 
I have not tried that but do you really think that would be the issue when it has been this way since I got the bucket no more than six batches ago? And it was that way from the beginng?
 
I have not tried that but do you really think that would be the issue when it has been this way since I got the bucket no more than six batches ago? And it was that way from the beginng?

I'm just trying to help you turn over the stone. For all you know that bucket could have been used to carry pig Sh_t before it arrived at you. I normally throw away hoses and get new plastic after a year of service.

Did someone ask about sanitizer? and amounts?
 
Yeah and I apreciate any input I am trying to find as many things as could possiblly be. Forest asked me I use easyclean then I rinse then I use star san and I Know I probably use a little too much because I didn't measure for my spray bottle of easyclean I just poured a little into the bottle then filled with water and shook. I am going to be more anal about measuring when I use cleaner or sanitizer. The cleaner I do the same thing just pour some in the buckets/ carboy and then fill with some water and scrub with a brush.
 
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