Anyone care to explain automated brewing?

I've been reading a fair bit about PID and fuzzy logic controllers recently and am trying to picture how it all works. In my head, I'm thinking of how to make a single tier brewsystem with temp control of the HLT and MLT, something similar to Sabco's BrewMagic. I've seen some pretty snazzy fully auto brew systems out there, but I'm picturing something much more basic. I have zero experience with automation and don't know where I would begin. Also, I'm having trouble finding any threads on this topic that start at the absolute basics. I think what baffles me the most is this- I understand the concept of a controller, but how does it control the flame? I of course understand how I turn a knob and get more or less flame, but how does a controller do it? Any info or links to relevant threads would be very helpful. Cheers

I don't know either... but doesn't automation take the fun out of brewing?

Yesterday I threw in .5 oz of Hallertau 10 min at the end of my boil and forgot to stir. Some got scorched the bottom but that's what I get for brewing after 11 hours of landscaping!

My pipeline ran out and I was desperate.

For gas flame based systems, there are very few systems that adjust the actual level of the flame. Most systems simply turn a valve on/off to enable/disable the flame burner. You must first set the level of the flame with a manual adjustment. Think of a gas water heater. It turns on the burner until a set temp, then simply turns it back off.

dallasdb said:

I don't know either... but doesn't automation take the fun out of brewing?

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Automation neither takes the fun out of it or makes it a hands-off process. There is still plenty to do.

What it does do is make it easier to hit the temperatures that you are shooting for and it also helps to add repeatability to your brewing since you can more accurately control temps and times.

It's not about pushing a button and sitting back in an easy chair!

JonW said:

What it does do is make it easier to hit the temperatures that you are shooting for and it also helps to add repeatability to your brewing since you can more accurately control temps and times.

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I like not being able to repeat my brews... it is like tasting a brand new beer every batch!

It's like the others said. Flame is on or off. Most of that is cost based. I discrete valve (on/off) is probably a lot cheaper than an analog one (adjustable).

And I don't think automation takes the fun out of it, but I'm a PLC programmer for a living and would love making one some day.

My mash is automated but I use that term loosely because there's still a lot of manual intervention (swapping hoses, stirring mash, etc). I built an electric HERMS controlled by a BCS-460. Mine is fairly basic, I use it to control heating elements in my heat exchanger (HEX) and hot liquor tank (HLT). Mash temps are maintained by recirculating the mash through the HEX and measuring the temp as it exits. It's essentially an on/off deal, so if the temp is below target, the element is on and as it approaches target, the PID controller will switch it on and off until the target is reached. It would be the same if you were using gas on a direct fire setup. As JonW indicated, my main reason for doing it is repeatability. If I brew recipe XYZ three different times, I want my end product to be as identical as possible each time.

I just built a "semi-automatic" system, 20g/3 vessel/electric heat/RIMS/BCS controlled
we have brewed 3 times and it is like night and day compared to our old system.
We are still using the BCS in "manual mode" = turning pumps off/on with a keystroke and controlling elements through the controller/temp sensors all through a manual/auto control panel. The BCS can provide very automated brewing in its highest level of control. The next level of control I will use is a basic process to make my RIMS and mash out "automatic" = when I hit start the system will RIMS mash for 60 min's @ my chosen temp and after that 60 mins is up the controller will ramp up the temp to 168 for 10 mins for a mashout - timers and alarms included. I'm toying with the idea of float switches so the pumps can be automatically controlled. As stated above semi or full automation is more control which equals more consistency

I have built and programmed a nearly fully automated brewing system that uses an instant water heating and steam generating boiler for steam injection RIMS step mashing. The control system is based on Opto 22 PLC hardware with a custom built application that integrates recipe build with control to simplify operation. With the need to adjust boiler water and fuel flow to maintain temperatures on a nearly constant basis automation was the best option. With the programming comes the ability to operate the system safely with minimal observation so I can do other brewery tasks while the tedious parts of brewing are running without having to worry about missed events or unsafe conditions. The design, construction, and programming has been an ongoing effort for a couple years, with the goal of a system that will have integrated recipe, control, and safety features not achievable by other automated systems.

So... If I am interested in a basic on/off system for propane, what kind of equipment would I be looking at? I'm very visual, so seeing pictures and diagrams helps me a lot. Anyone got some? Links? How tos? Thanks!

Also, in case it matters, I'm looking to build a 1BBL brewhouse using Blichmann kettles and the appropriate sized/BTU LP burners. This is what I am interested in installing temp control on...

I think the reason you don't see anyone starting with the "basics" is that you're working with electricity and nobody here's want's the liability. The "basics" should be learned from a text book or hands on with someone of experience, not strangers on the internet. Especially when looking at electric brewing which is what the majority of the automated setups are using. Then we're talking 240v/30-50A "Kill you quick" (not that 120/20A won't as well) setups. The basics should be learned from a reputable source, and the forum should be used for ideas and certain component/method brainstorming.

IrregularPulse said:

I think the reason you don't see anyone starting with the "basics" is that you're working with electricity and nobody here's want's the liability. The "basics" should be learned from a text book or hands on with someone of experience, not strangers on the internet. Especially when looking at electric brewing which is what the majority of the automated setups are using. Then we're talking 240v/30-50A "Kill you quick" (not that 120/20A won't as well) setups. The basics should be learned from a reputable source, and the forum should be used for ideas and certain component/method brainstorming.

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I think a lot of the people doing automated setups also have extensive prior experience either through education or career.


I just saw a poll and the results indicate that roughly 40% of the brewers on this board have an engineering background. I know automation and programming is part of an electrical engineering degree, and I'm sure other engineering fields touch on process control as well.

o4_srt said:

I think a lot of the people doing automated setups also have extensive prior experience either through education or career.


I just saw a poll and the results indicate that roughly 40% of the brewers on this board have an engineering background. I know automation and programming is part of an electrical engineering degree, and I'm sure other engineering fields touch on process control as well.

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Agreed and that is what I was getting at with my post as well. It's not like some of the other DIY skills in brewing that can be learned in an afternoon with minimal risk in screw ups such as making wort chillers or cutting the tops off your own keggles and mounting your own weldless fittings.
It's a specialized career field that people spend years learning to get into and lifetimes mastering.

Here is a simple diagram for a 3 burner, 2 pump, and 2 solenoid valve control panel that is designed around Love TS series temperature switches. https://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/PanelWiringDiagram#5507979690350514498. This will be a starting point for on/off burner control, flame adjustment is manual.

dallasdb said:

I don't know either... but doesn't automation take the fun out of brewing?

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No.

Mine has evolved a bit since I originally posted this info so I need to do some updating, but you can check out my blog if you like http://www.microbusbrewery.org/2009/03/herms-design.html

Just click the link near the bottom of each post (between the text and graphics) and it will take you through the equipment and the processes for a single infusion mash. I don't go into a ton of detail...more like a 10,000 foot view, but it illustrates the basics of what's going on.

love controllers and gas valves??

http://www.alenuts.com/Alenuts/brutus.html

An old timer once told me( i rebuild corvettes for myself and others as a hobby) that it is a slippery slope adding chrome to a car. You chrome piece X and then Y looks out of place so you chrome it, so on and so forth. Next thing you know, you never drive your car and you have more money than your house cost in just in making it shiny for show.

I imagine this thought process could directly be related to automation. To this day 95% of the beer I drink comes from my simple keggle system and recipe kits from a company in Austin. Though i have 10k plus pretty easy in my white elephant attempt at a perfect automated system.

No matter how hard we try to get around it, hard work and simplicity beats out complex and intelligent every time. Don't believe just look at China.

But hey, if you want to automate your system, for about 75 bucks you can build a PID controller for your keggle. And then once you have moved over to the dark side I'll talk to you about, PLC, proportional valves, PID, glycol, 3a sanitary, and mass flow rate.

Cliff notes version: "although fun and impressive, don't spend 1000$ to save 30 minutes twice a month"

Thanks all. Yeah- the whole electrocution thing is certainly not something I care to mess with. I have a bit of an engineering background- computer engineering- but it's fairly useless for this application; I would probably need an electrician buddy to give me a hand I gather... And thanks for the links- very helpful. Out of curiosity, does anyone have any experience with the RIMS-Wizard by Sabco? I mostly interested in automation for regulating and recirculating mash...

What's more important to you - money or time? If you value money, then read up and build your own RIMS including a whole system automation (BCS) for less than the RIMS Wizard. If you want to get one ASAP and brew and money is no object, then go for it - Sabco makes good stuff (just very expensive).

dallasdb said:

I don't know either... but doesn't automation take the fun out of brewing?

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Automation has not taken the fun out of my brewing to this date and I have a few more things to automate.
My brewery needs to be wheelchair ready
I have enough to do while the system is helping me.
Automation can be fun to watch, seeing a bottle or keg filler doing the process without touching the system and your are waiting for the drink to come down the line.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB