My batch sparge efficiency theory was confirmed again

I've mentioned in previous posts that I've acheived vastly different batch sparge efficiencies depending on certain factors:

No mash out, double sparge = 75% (NMODS) I actually listed this as a single sparge before but just double checked my notes.
Mash out, single sparge = 80% (MOSS)
Mash out, double sparge = 86% (MODS)

I did a 10 gallon batch yesterday and hit 80% again using the Mash Out + single sparge. I knew it could have been better because the very last of the sparge runnings was still 1.025. In my MODS (mash out double sparge) trial, the last running was exactly 1.010.

Anyway, I don't have any reason to ignore the benefit of the MODS process. The only downside is an additional vorlauf which adds 5 minutes to my day. By the way, I don't let any sparge "rest"... I stir, vorlauf and drain in 5 minutes or less each.

Hope this helps.

So, you must be collecting more total wort with MODS than with MOSS; how much more, and are you doing a longer boil as a result? Or, are you just sparging the same total amount, just splitting it into two?

What do you mean by double sparge? Do you use twice the amount of sparge water , or split the normal sparge amount in half.

Sorry. Good point.. No, always the same pre-boil volume of 7.25g for a 6g post. I just split the sparge as equal as I can get it. Oh, and the mash out volume is whatever volume of boiling water it takes to get me into the upper 160's which I learn from beertoolspro.

Hell, I'd be stoked with the 75% at this point!

I've been wondering about the whole "let it rest 10 minutes before vorlaufing and draining" thing - just seems like it gives more time for the sugars to settle back into the grains (more than allowing more sugars to dissolve). So, I'm going to cut that rest out next time and see if I get any improvement.

Thanks for posting this. Giving me more to think about........




Cheers!

I cut my sparge water rest time to a coupl of minutes and have had no drop in effieciency.

I wort mash water split my sparge water into 2 equal part.
I don't mash out but use sparge water at 170f
dump in the sparge water, stir, let the grain settle, vourlauf and drain fast.
Repeat.

Job done.

I did MODS with my RyePA last weekend and hit 82% efficiency on my second ever mash.

I read it from one of your previous posts, did all the calcs by hand from Palmer, and couldn't be happier! Thanks, Bobby!

Hmmm. I've tried it several ways too, but I'm not sure if I always kept track of which method I was using. It's the most work and I wasn't sure I was gaining anything by it. I'm usually ~ 70% +/- a few points. I'll give it another shot next brew and see what I get.

I've always fly sparged, but I may need to give this a try. I routinely hit 85-92% with the fly, but if I could hit 85 or 86 with a batch, I would be happy. How long does the MODS take you? I think I may like this idea if it cuts a significant amount of time off.

I add the boiling mashout water, stir, vorlauf, drain - 5-10 minutes.
Add first batch sparge, stir, vorlauf, drain 5-10min, repeat.

Anywhere from 20-30 minutes total.

The hardest part is that the mash out is best using boiling water and then you want to sparge with 170F. If you're pulling from the same HLT, it's impossible. I boil my mashout in a smaller pot on the stove.

For me to get to a pre-boil volume of 12 gallons with a 10-gallon rubbermaid, I have to do a MODATSS Mash Out Double (And Then Some) Sparge.

I'm hitting right at 80%.

stupid question - I assume you are all talking conversion percentages into the pot and not brewhouse percentages, correct?

The only difference would be wort left in the kettle. I'm personally quoting brewhouse, but I leave about a quart or less in the kettle.

What's the difference between conversion % and brewhouse %?

Sounds like you found the best method for you. I batch sparge and just do an intial infusion then sparge with 170 degree water and since I have my own mill my efficiency has increased to about 75%. I have never mashed out yet. I might have to try it in the near future to see if it helps out at all.

PseudoChef said:

What's the difference between conversion % and brewhouse %?

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Well, Beer Smith gives me an "efficiency into boiler", which i called conversion %. Then they give a "Brewhouse efficiency" percentage which is calculated using OG after the boil. Mine differ by quite a bit. A recent batch netted 82% into the boiler, but just under 76% brewhouse efficiency.

Looking at my last batch, it has a huge difference - 88% into the kettle, 74% brewhouse efficiency. I don't know why this is

I generally get between 75% and 85% with a single infusion mash and spliting my sparge water into two lots without a mashout.
I stir when adding my sparge water and start vorlaufing right away.
I have been using 180f water for my first sparge and the temps drop to under
170 by the time I'm ready for my second sparge with a little help from a cold water addition to my HLT.
This gets my first sparge into the 160 - 165f range and then it is kept there with the second addition.

I concur that letting the sparge water rest is basically unnecessary. I usually let mine rest ~5 minutes just to let the grains restratify and resettle into a good filter bed. But I believe once the water hits the mash the sugars are pretty much in the hot liquor and anyway you can get it into the kettle is fine at that point.

Bobby_M said:

I add the boiling mashout water, stir, vorlauf, drain - 5-10 minutes.
Add first batch sparge, stir, vorlauf, drain 5-10min, repeat.

Anywhere from 20-30 minutes total.

The hardest part is that the mash out is best using boiling water and then you want to sparge with 170F. If you're pulling from the same HLT, it's impossible. I boil my mashout in a smaller pot on the stove.

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Ok, that's could save me a little bit of time. My fly sparges take me about 45-60 minutes. I might just try this on the next haus ale I do, so I can compare to earlier batches. Thanks

Conversion vs Brewhouse efficiency: Conversion calcs against the wort directly collected out of the MLT (you'll need a way to accurately measure the volume). Brewhouse measures against the post boil volume and this percentage is usually lower due to wort left behind in the kettle either from deadspace or hop absorbtion. Think about it, lost wort is lost sugar.

In checking my notes, I got 80.5% conversion and left a little more than a quart in the kettle. I normally don't measure this but I wanted to get an idea of how much I lose so I grabbed most of my whole hop leafs out and squeezed them out back into the kettle. I used 2 oz of pellet hops too but those were in bags so wort lose is almost nothing there.

I do agree that you can either do the mash out or sparge with hotter water but the rest temp of the mash during the sparge has a direct impact on extraction. The closer to 169 you can get, the better. If you skip the mashout and sparge with 170, the rest temp will likely be in the high 150's low 160's.

I thought mash out was to stop further convertion. Not required when batch sparging because the wort goes straight to the kettle an is effectively mashed out in the kettle.

The higher temp from "mashing out" also, at least in theory, helps the sugars run off easier.

Makes sense, as solubility goes up with temperature. You can dissolve a lot more stuff in boiling water than you can in near-freezing water.

You can also extract more tannins.

I thought more-than-negligible tannin extraction started at 170 and above, thus the reason for the 169 target temp.

Mash out does halt conversion but you're right, I'm not concerned with that. For me it's about getting as much sugar in solution for the first runnings. I suspect I could probably hit the same numbers if I drain first and run three batch sparges but I'm saving one vorlauf.

This whole process is going to change for me as soon as I use a direct fired MLT. I'll use flame to get to 169 prior to first runnings and won't vorlauf because I'll run constant recirculation. In that case, I might experiment with 3 equal batch sparges. By then I'll probably be tired of trying to squeeze out max efficiency and just compensate my grain bill for a single sparge efficiency.

Bobby_M said:

Mash out does halt conversion but you're right, I'm not concerned with that. For me it's about getting as much sugar in solution for the first runnings. I suspect I could probably hit the same numbers if I drain first and run three batch sparges but I'm saving one vorlauf.

This whole process is going to change for me as soon as I use a direct fired MLT. I'll use flame to get to 169 prior to first runnings and won't vorlauf because I'll run constant recirculation. In that case, I might experiment with 3 equal batch sparges. By then I'll probably be tired of trying to squeeze out max efficiency and just compensate my grain bill for a single sparge efficiency.

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That makes sense. I'm not fussed about 5% one way or the other.
The important thing is consistency and knowing what you are going to get before you do it.
All this palying around helps you figure out what does make a difference to effieciency.

Are most people just taking a sample of wort, letting it cool, and making a hydrometer reading after each runnings and then again once all the wort is in the kettle to get their measurements?

The most efficient way to batch sparge is to collect 2 equal batches which means mashing (don't run off), top up with sparge water, run off, add the second batch of sparge water and run once more. Recirculating or vorlaufing is generally quite a quick process as the grains are quite fluid and settle easily.
Tannin extraction isn't an issue as there isn't the rising PH situation at the end of the sparge as per fly sparging.

There's a simplified explanation of the process here...
http://www.18000feet.com/batch_sparging/batch_sparging_p1.htm

and if anyone is familiar with SI units there's a batch sparge calculator here...
http://www.18000feet.com/calculators/batch_calculator.html

There's no point checking the gravity at any point except once the fermenter is full so you can check your efficiency, estimate FG and calculate ABV% (one reason for the popularity of batch sparging is that there is no need to monitor the gravity of the runnings)

You mean efficient as in extraction rate or time? I know for a fact that (on my system) mashout, batch, batch (that's 3 total runoffs) is more efficient than two.

As in pre boil/mash efficiency. When you say three run offs, how much wort are you collecting. The idea is to collect your brew length plus losses to evaporation (based on a standard 60 or 90 min boil depending on preference) and losses to the hops and trub.
You maybe able to rinse out more sugars by collecting more wort but thats not the idea of batch sparging.

DAAB said:

The most efficient way to batch sparge is to collect 2 equal batches which means mashing (don't run off), top up with sparge water, run off, add the second batch of sparge water and run once more. Recirculating or vorlaufing is generally quite a quick process as the grains are quite fluid and settle easily.
Tannin extraction isn't an issue as there isn't the rising PH situation at the end of the sparge as per fly sparging.

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In THEORY this is supposed to be true, but as this thread demonstrates, what should work in theory doesn't always work in practice. Bobby has found a better way that works for him, and I don't doubt it for a second. Another great example of this is fly sparging vs. batch sparging. In theory, fly sparging should be more efficient. But in practice, not everyone has a perfect system or perfect technique, and batch sparging is sometimes more efficient for them.

In my own experience, trying a few different techniques has shown that a modification of your equal-runnings system works best. I shoot for two equal run-offs (i.e., one batch sparge addition), but I make up my first runnings with a mash-out (or as close as I can come). A mash-out makes a big difference in efficiency, as Bobby has already demonstrated in this thread. If I use the two rounds of batch sparging and a mash-out, like Bobby, I get approximately the same result (a little lower, actually) as the one round of batch sparging. So for me, the extra step isn't worth the hassle.

The important message that is emerging from this thread is that you have to find a technique that works best for you. I have stopped believing that ONE technique (e.g., fly sparging vs. batch sparging, single batch sparge vs. two batch sparges, mash-out vs no mash-out, etc.) is necessarily better than another. Be open to trying multiple ways and find what works for you. This is just part of the fun of the hobby -- there are lots of things to try that will help you to make better beer and enjoy the process even more.

Cheers!

I shoot for two equal run-offs (i.e., one batch sparge addition), but I make up my first runnings with a mash-out (or as close as I can come).

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That's exactly the method I describe (as does Ken Schwartz and Denny Conn etc). It's the temperature of the first top up prior to run off that raises the grain bed temperature and effects the mash out.

DAAB said:

That's exactly the method I describe (as does Ken Schwartz and Denny Conn etc). It's the temperature of the first top up prior to run off that raises the grain bed temperature and effects the mash out.

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Ah, ok. I suspected as much, but you said to top-up with sparge water which I differentiate from a mash-out infusion (i.e., the sparge water isn't as hot). Regardless, I have tried it both ways and saw only a slight and somewhat inconsistent increase in efficiency doing it this way. I prefer this method, but only because it saves a bit of time and one vorlauf.

Ah, ok. I suspected as much, but you said to top-up with sparge water which I differentiate from a mash-out infusion (i.e., the sparge water isn't as hot).

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It's all sparge water really, personally I top up with 85 deg c water from the HLT(although others advocate hotter) then I add a little cold water to the hlt to bring the temperature down to 80 deg c, these steps aren't critical though imo. As has already been mentioned the mash out is done in the boiler (if not done previously) batch sparging is so quick it makes little difference, (certainly by comparison to fly sparging).

My efficiency has dropped 5-10 pts to 78% compared to fly sparging but it's a small price to pay for the time saved and for being a much easier process. (the only problem is some of the explantions on the web make it seem like rocket science).

DAAB said:

It's all sparge water really, personally I top up with 85 deg c water from the HLT(although others advocate hotter) then I add a little cold water to the hlt to bring the temperature down to 80 deg c, these steps aren't critical though imo. As has already been mentioned the mash out is done in the boiler (if not done previously) batch sparging is so quick it makes little difference, (certainly by comparison to fly sparging).

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If you haven't already done so, give a hot mash-out infusion a try. I noticed a significant improvement in my efficiency (at least 5%) when I started using one. Bobby clearly demonstrates that it improved his efficiency batch sparging, too.

I think the reason is that the significant rise in mash temperature allows some extra sugars into solution, plus it makes lautering quite a bit easier. Well worth the extra effort, at least for me. I recommend trying it once to see if you have a similar experience. I can't say that it will work for you, but it might!

Cheers!

DAAB, Just to clarify, I'm not sparging more, just more times in smaller increments. There have been great debates involving the theory of course, but when I try your method with my desired preboil volume ~7.25g (based on a 70 minute boil and desired post boil of 6 gallons (12 on a double batch), my second sparge runnings always measure 1.020 - 1.025. It doesn't take a scientist to see a loss of efficiency there. Splitting my overall sparge infusions (including one boiling temp mash out infusion) to make 3 equal runnings gets that last batch gravity down near 1.010 which is the desired threshold between efficiency and tannin extraction. I'd love to say I've tested this over countless batches but I've only tried each method a couple times so far. In any case, I just wanted to document my findings in case anyone wants to try it for themselves (and report their findings here of course).

Bobby_M said:

DAAB, Just to clarify, I'm not sparging more, just more times in smaller increments. There have been great debates involving the theory of course, but when I try your method with my desired preboil volume ~7.25g (based on a 70 minute boil and desired post boil of 6 gallons (12 on a double batch), my second sparge runnings always measure 1.020 - 1.025. It doesn't take a scientist to see a loss of efficiency there. Splitting my overall sparge infusions (including one boiling temp mash out infusion) to make 3 equal runnings gets that last batch gravity down near 1.010 which is the desired threshold between efficiency and tannin extraction. I'd love to say I've tested this over countless batches but I've only tried each method a couple times so far. In any case, I just wanted to document my findings in case anyone wants to try it for themselves (and report their findings here of course).

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I have only done two AG brews so far. Both I did without a mash-out and two equal val. sparges. One I hit 79% the other 66%. The 79% I mixed the grains again before draining the 66% I did not.
Not really sure if that had anything to do with it or not. But I have two more brews coming up and I will try it again.

You should always give the mash a stir once you've added the water, it raises the temperature of the grain bed evenly and helps liquefy the sugars. I find it also helps clear the run off quicker, possibly because the grain bed is more fluid and settles more readily.

Running of in 2 batches is a very quick method of collecting the wort to. I was a confirmed fly sparger at one point but after knocking a significant amount of time off the brewday I couldn't go back, even if it does mean i've dropped a few points and that seems to be the general consensus.

(btw, fwiw, another big time saver I found was switching from an immersion to a stainless/copper brazed plate chiller, I found a cheap one (new) on on Ebay from a central heating boiler and converted it. Worth considering if you are short on time.