Hoppy beers a trend?

So now that you have impugned my character, may I ask what your credentials are? Have you ever taken an exam as comprehensive as the BJCP? Have you any idea what goes into it?

If it were easy, anyone could do it. If you think you are better than I then by all means go prove it. The world needs more qualified judges. If you think my skills are lacking then dilute my shortcomings with your knowledge.

Insults are however the refuge of a person who is losing an argument.

I think that IPAs have definitely established themselves as the primary american craft 'style'. Can't see that changing.

I do think that all the double and triple IPAs have tested the limits of the average beer drinker's palate - so the IBU space race may be a trend.

EyePeeA said:

I'm always up for "intellectual debate"... But it is the intellectual part of that phrase that matters more than a slew of fragmented & misinformed opinions. I have no problem owning if I am wrong about something if it is indeed the case. Can you say the same?

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Your response changed after I first read it so I did not see this part.

I am always willing to be wrong, I'm just not sure there's any way either of us can prove that we are right. There are objective and subjective measurements at play here and I'm not sure we will get past that.

You imply I have slighted every American by repeating that which is part of the BJCP style guidelines. I do not think it is incorrect to say the style now known as an Imperial India Pale Ale is a style originating in the US and grew out of a society where excesses are celebrated. How else did it come to be do you think? In order to understand the style as a style, the history is as important as the ingredients. In fact (at least when I took the test) there was as much emphasis on the history as the ingredients themselves.

I gave examples of beers I thought were good; were they not good beers, exemplary of the style indicated? I don't have the names for ones I did not favor written down because I simply never intended to drink them again.

What about what I have written is simply wrong (opinions are however ... well, you know what they are, including mine)? If we are to have an intellectual conversation you at least have to come at me with reasons what I've said is wrong. Otherwise it's "I think" vs. "You think" and no argument was ever settled that way (at least on the Internet). I am a voracious reader, maybe you can point me towards some additional literature with which I can bolster my knowledge in this area.

It's not me vs. you; It's you vs. reality. There is absolutely nothing wrong with preferring other styles of beer, saying so, and owning it. But when you go on and on about defining what IPAs should be and how others should approach the style just because you read it in the BJCP curriculum, well then I just have to laugh. I would appreciate that you not generalize how an IPA should taste like for the consuming public or how professional and amateur brewers should go about brewing their hoppy beers.

It seems like you are angry that you cannot fit IPAs into a little box, perhaps for a better personal understanding because they have always eluded you. This must bother you being that you are so hung up on style requirements. An excellent American IPA does not have to be within a certain amount of IBUs, SRM, starting gravity, final ABV or even be composed of American malt or yeast. We see this everyday with beers like Hopslam, Mikkeller 1000, Racer 5, Hop Rod Rye, 75 Minute, 120 Minute, All Day IPA, Route 113, and Torpedo. I advise throwing away the book and start trusting your own senses for once.

Lastly, my credentials are tasting and brewing more IPAs than yourself, and knowing more about their evolution in general it seems. After reading your ignorant comments about the style and its appreciators, it appears that you are still stuck in the 1800s. Just because you took a standard exam on beer and now you think you are some kind of authority on beer does not actually make you an authority.

Now kids I am going to have to send you both into a corner

In short both of you are wrong. One of you is a judge and cannot see that the other beer beer is not in front of you but rather a loosely defined beer in front of the other guy. Heck I brew a few beers that I have no clue what they are nor do I care.

The other guy and sorry I do not remember names very well You cannot seem to understand that since he is a judge of beers he will use the guidelines laid out for judging beers. You may not like the way he judges beer but guess what he is still a judge.

And this is why I brew beer for my taste and do not enter competitions.

I'll agree with that. My point is that sometimes formal education, especially on a topic as subjective as beer, has the opposite effect. A lot of the BJCP folk can exclaim about being supposed experts and yet have no idea what's going on. It's fascinating.

Learning about all of the different styles and forming general, but flexible descriptions of them is fine. But it does not mean we should all brew like robots and hit all of the BJCP "American Pale Ale" (10A) guidelines to the letter. After all, they are guidelines, not requirements.

Cheers

I'm sorry but what does this have to do with hoppy beers being or not being a trend? Could we just get back on topic which I thought was an interesting one, at least more interesting than whether or not most beers sold as IPAs today are actually IPAs or Dr Frankenhops' monsters. I've stated that I think they are a trend but that I think we will still brew with more hops than we previously did in the past.

Hoppy beers are not a trend.

Overly hopped (Hop-Bombs) are a fad that will change over time but IPA's and APA's are an American staple now and will not be going away.

This has turned into something that seems like a conversation with my wife - where the answer (and challenge) is something other than that which I just said (or thought I said). I'm going to go ahead and unsub from the thread, allowing y'all to have the last word and me to have some peace of mind.

If you're ever in KC drop me a line. We can discuss over a beer - which HAS to work better than this has.

You can only truly have debates about beer...while drinking beer! :rockin:

at a recent beer festival with almost 400 beers, i noticed an extremely strong trend among the breweries.

beer 1: IPA
beer 2: Pale
beer 3: Hoppy dark
beer 4: Imperial IPA

i'm not even kidding. it was almost comical. i like IPAs, but it was just too much.

i think of the 365 beers, there were maybe 10 lagers, with more than half of those being from one vendor. of the 365 beers, i found one legit pilsner. also i found one kolsch and one cream ale.

what i think a brewery lineup at a festival should look like:

beer 1: Pale or IPA
beer 2: Porter or brown or similar
beer 3: Clean lager, pseudo lager, or amber style
beer 4: Something high gravity

Jayhem said:

Hoppy beers are not a trend.

Overly hopped (Hop-Bombs) are a fad that will change over time but IPA's and APA's are an American staple now and will not be going away.

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I would have to go with this

I love me a good commercial IPA, even love the OK IPAs that I brew. got one in primary right now and the Centennial aroma coming out of the airlock is like farts from an angel.

don't think this will ever change. I might brew other beers, but I will always come back around to my IPAs

I don't think I've ever had anything that would be considered a Hop-Bomb. mostly because they're over-hyped limited issue and I just don't waste my time. I like Two Hearted, but unless someone pours me a Hopslam, I won't bother.

people will tire of that

Imagine how much cheaper hops would be to purchase if it weren't for the excessively hopped trend? For most of us making IPA's, most of the cost is the hop bill!

Jayhem said:

Imagine how much cheaper hops would be to purchase if it weren't for the excessively hopped trend? For most of us making IPA's, most of the cost is the hop bill!

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hard to say. production would be a lot lower.

progmac said:

hard to say. production would be a lot lower.

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But if demand wasn't going up exponentially it would be safe to assume that supply could keep up, prices would reflect the market and "hop shortages" would not be a worry. I have so many different hops in my freezer right now because I know that if I wait until winter to buy that all the sought after hops from the previous growing season will be pretty much sold out everywhere.

There would also be much fewer varieties of hops without the current demand.

The French gave us the croissant, and America made a croissan'wich... much in the way the English gave us India Pale Ales, and we made triple digit IBU hop bombs.

I like a hoppy beer, but I've re-fallen in love with traditional English IPA's. I hit the local beer store and bought a bottle of every variety I could find and then made my attempt to brew my own. It's not just the Maris otter or the English hops I'm liking right now, it's the balance of malt and hop so that one does not overpower the other.

Anyone remember this graph?



Most American IPA's are so off the scale it's not even relevant anymore.

can you recommend some commercial EIPAs?

Samuel Smith's India Ale (my favorite)
Burton Bridge Empire India Pale Ale (my second favorite)
St. Peter's India Pale Ale was a skunky mess but that may have more to do with the green bottles they use.
Fuller's India Pale Ale would be my favorite if I could find it.
I did try Bass' India Pale Ale. It is the BMC version of an English IPA.

I though Sam Smith's IPA was incredibly bland, try a Mean Time IPA- at least it has some hop flavor.

The IPA trend has send me back to lagers- even at times back to cheap lagers/lawnmower beers... I want to be able to enjoy and sip a smooth brew without having to make a face and have to gargle after drinking a glass full of fresh grass clippings... enough already! I hope to see a return of nice brown ales, red ales, smooth porters and quaffable stouts- even a real pale ale that has a nice hop bite but is balanced with malt and alcohol.. instead of a 9% mess with a half a pound if dandelion leaves in it!

roymullins said:

The IPA trend has send me back to lagers- even at times back to cheap lagers/lawnmower beers... I want to be able to enjoy and sip a smooth brew without having to make a face and have to gargle after drinking a glass full of fresh grass clippings... enough already! I hope to see a return of nice brown ales, red ales, smooth porters and quaffable stouts- even a real pale ale that has a nice hop bite but is balanced with malt and alcohol.. instead of a 9% mess with a half a pound if dandelion leaves in it!

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there is a certain je ne sais quoi about a lager, no doubt. it is absolutely the most unexplored territory in the craft beer world.

high5apparatus said:

Samuel Smith's India Ale (my favorite)
Burton Bridge Empire India Pale Ale (my second favorite)
St. Peter's India Pale Ale was a skunky mess but that may have more to do with the green bottles they use.
Fuller's India Pale Ale would be my favorite if I could find it.
I did try Bass' India Pale Ale. It is the BMC version of an English IPA.

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thanks for the recommendations! i'll see what i can find at my craft beer store.

roymullins said:

The IPA trend has send me back to lagers- even at times back to cheap lagers/lawnmower beers... I want to be able to enjoy and sip a smooth brew without having to make a face and have to gargle after drinking a glass full of fresh grass clippings... enough already! I hope to see a return of nice brown ales, red ales, smooth porters and quaffable stouts- even a real pale ale that has a nice hop bite but is balanced with malt and alcohol.. instead of a 9% mess with a half a pound if dandelion leaves in it!

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Lagers are a rather unexplored area of craft brew. There is this awesome brewery nearby called Jack's Abby that brews an amazing "India Pale Lager" and even a "Cascadian Swarzbier".

lol, hops aren't going anywhere

This thread is funny.

Styles I want to see more of: Kölsch, ESB, Maibock (or just bocks in general), and hey, why not, altbier. A local brewpub makes a wonderful sticke alt.

Agreed on the craft brew/lager comment. There's a place in town that only does lagers. I still need to make it in there.

In St. Louis, Morgan Street Brewery does an India Pale Lager that is very good, Urban Chestnut does many lagers, and one of the best beers Civil Life Brewery makes is their Vienna Lager. But they all say that they can't make them all the time because for these small brewers, a tied up fermenter is lost money.

Hoppy beers were a trend 5 years ago

Funny how fired up people get.

Brew what you like. Drink what you like. If your local pub is only carrying "hop bombs" and it ticks you off, then go introduce yourself (in a friendly way) to the owner, and maybe ask him/her about it. I know that the owner of a local pub here in town is very open to suggestions from the public.

Long live hops and triple-digit-IBU bombs!

Devin said:

Funny how fired up people get.

Brew what you like. Drink what you like. If your local pub is only carrying "hop bombs" and it ticks you off, then go introduce yourself (in a friendly way) to the owner, and maybe ask him/her about it. I know that the owner of a local pub here in town is very open to suggestions from the public.

Long live hops and triple-digit-IBU bombs!

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a wise man once said, "it's all beer, it's all good"

wait. no, he was an idiot. disregard anything he says

They will remain trendy because "you can't get what I get". AmIPAs require freshness. Almost impossible to do a good one nationally, or on an extremely large scale.

You also have more variety in the AmIPA style as most other beers combined. You get grass, onion, pine, cat pee,,,,but you also get grapefruit, orange, lemon, tropical fruit, and yes wet ganja. Fresh the combinations can be wonderful,,, give it a month or two, or a few weeks under the fluorescents in your local store, and they turn to bitter grass and pine if you're lucky.

Plus it is almost impossible to get the mix just perfect every time (hop chemistry changes lots compared to grain year to year), so a Hop Stoopid this year may just be good, where last year it was divine. And it's a chase to find that perfect mix again!

harrydrez said:

Lagers are a rather unexplored area of craft brew. There is this awesome brewery nearby called Jack's Abby that brews an amazing "India Pale Lager" and even a "Cascadian Swarzbier".

lol, hops aren't going anywhere

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Jacks is great - ya good lagers are rare in craft.
Milds as well - I've had one bottled version in all the years I've been interested in craft beer (pretty things)

You get grass, onion, pine, cat pee,,,,but you also get grapefruit, orange, lemon, tropical fruit, and yes wet ganja.------------------------------------------
I got in trouble for mentioning ganja on here...

roymullins said:

You get grass, onion, pine, cat pee,,,,but you also get grapefruit, orange, lemon, tropical fruit, and yes wet g(*&).------------------------------------------
I got in trouble for mentioning ganja on here...

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Brewing with it, illegal, and frowned upon on most public forums. Having your hops produce a similar smell, and describing it that way would not be illegal. Hops being a close relative, there is a good chance in bringing up similar smells.

I think the trend is about "extreme" beers. The bottle shops in my area have a huge selection of imperial something-or-others. Whether it be a 100 IBU IIPA or a huge RIS, the trend (in my observation) is towards extreme flavors in malt-forward and hop-forward beers.

I think its a rediscovery more then a trend . I drink what I like ....i dont believe there is that many sheep out there drinking beer just to be trendy

Beerbelcher44 said:

I think its a rediscovery more then a trend . I drink what I like ....i dont believe there is that many sheep out there drinking beer just to be trendy

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You bring up a good point - I know when I first got interested in craft it was all IPAs- maybe it's just that there are so many noobs that are getting interested in craft that IPAs get such a surge.

Beerbelcher44 said:

I think its a rediscovery more then a trend . I drink what I like ....i dont believe there is that many sheep out there drinking beer just to be trendy

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In my experience most non craft drinkers can't deal with IPAs. I think an easier transition beer is a Belgian whit. I think it may be more due to craft brewers loving IPAs than having high demand for IPAs.

I wish I could get into the whole IPA thing I have had the privilege of having heady toppers which i did like after a few cans, and some APA like zombie dust and two hearted but thats the extent for me while i prefur Beers like Munich Helles, and stouts

On a side note I would love to make a clone of Zombie Dust

Yeah, a trend, but its something that has gotten craft beer into shelves all over the country. "Hoppy" is a taste/flavor attribute that people can easily identify and talk about, so I think brewers have responded when people say they love it. It's not a "fad," like rainbow afro wigs or fish emblems on people's cars, but a trend that will rise and fall with popularity. I'm sure once the general public gets the idea of a Malty beer, that will gain in popularity too. Another example: I went to a beer tasting of 17 awful, over-spiced, Christmas ales this December. That's another trend that is getting people drinking craft beer, and one that will hopefully, like hoppy beers, eventually have people asking for flavorful, but more balanced beer in the future.

Sad fact is that beers like that are relatively easy to make and hide flaws well. Some sub-par brewers make popular, highly hopped IPAs... they make a pale-amber wort and throw a bucket load of hops at it, that's it. I am not saying that there aren't examples that are excellent beers brewed by skilled brewers, just that they are one of the easier styles to make without skill. You want to see how good a brewer is? Ask to taste his Pilsner.

Trend? I suppose so. Not saying that is a good or bad thing in itself. I say trend not fad, because I don't think it will disappear entirely, nor do I think it is necessarily invalid. As a trend I can accept it, like them or not, because I think anything that makes people excited about beer is a good thing.

For my part, I am not hugely found of the extremely bitter beers, never did it for me. I have always been more of a malt forward kind of guy, or at least balanced. I like German and Czech lagers, traditional English ales, etc.