Recurrent infection. Help me before I drop out!

I had infections on 2 beers recently. The first one, it didn't surprise me, since it was our first beer, and everything was poorly done, the cooling took hours, etc... Anyway, we learned and step forward. But then the 3rd beer, showed signs of infections avec the bottling. Big leather taste and acidic smell.

We looked for the problem everywhere. I bought a new transfert tube, with a auto-siphon to clean it well... I bought StarSan, wich seems way better than what I used before. Then on the last bottling, our beer number 7, we doubled our sanitizing mania, everything was clean, star san'ed... We where 4, so we worked in chain... Cleaning, double rinse, star san, filling, capping... everything was done in less than a minute!

Before bottling, the beer was great. Coffe milk stout.. it was roasty, great coffee flavor... great body after we had lactose... but now, 1 week after bottling.. this little leather flavor again, it's ''carbonated'', but the foam goes completly in 5 seconds... no body, no sweetness...

What is the ******* problem!? I begin to really loose hope.

Ok, our brewing setup is not so good, the cooling can take too long... but if the contamination comes from there, why it doesnt show up before it's in bottles, after 4-5 weeks after brew day? Fermentation goes well, like normal.

Or maybe it ain't contamination, but another problem?

Leather flavor could be oxidation

Gartywood said:

Leather flavor could be oxidation

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Seriously... I would be HAPPY if it's true. Why?

I was worried about oxydation, because with our sh*tty equipment setup, we had to transfert hot wort from a bucket to another, and when we were sparging, the wort was falling from high in a bucket.

But since I recieved this week a REAL mashing/boiling kettle and everything. That would mean the problem could be over.

oxidation is only a problem POST fermentation. How did you transfer your beer to the bottling bucket and bottles?

Are you using a plastic primary? Scratches can get bacteria in there and are very hard to get out. How about your oxygen lock? Are you filling it with tap water? I lost a batch after the primary cooled a bit and pulled tap water in. I put star san in now. There are so many variables.

Tiroux said:

but now, 1 week after bottling.. this little leather flavor again, it's ''carbonated'', but the foam goes completly in 5 seconds... no body, no sweetness...

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This is your problem.....You're tasting your beers at only one week, calling any green flavor issues infections, and thinking because it gushed it's infected and NOT the the co2 hasn't gone fully into solution.
At 7 days in the bottle they're NOT over carbonated, OR INFECTED You've opened them TOO SOON. The co2 is in the headpsace and NOT in solution.

We get thsi all the time from folks who open their bottles WAAAAAYYYYYYY early.

If you watch Poindexter's video on time lapsed carbonation, you will see that in many instances, before a beer is carbed it my gush, that's not from infection, or mixing of sugars, but because the co2 hasn't evened out- it hasn't been pulled fully into the beer. Think of it as there's a lot of co2 being generated and most of it is in the headspace, not in the beer, so there's still "over pressure" in the bottle, so it gushes when it is opened.

But when the beer is truly carbed it all evens out, across the bottles.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlBlnTfZ2iw]time lapse carbonation - YouTube[/ame]

The 3 weeks at 70 degrees, that we recommend is the minimum time it takes for average gravity beers to carbonate and condition. Higher grav beers take longer.

Stouts and porters have taken me between 6 and 8 weeks to carb up..I have a 1.090 Belgian strong that took three months to carb up.

And just because a beer is carbed doesn't mean it still doesn't taste like a$$ and need more time for the off flavors to condition out.

This is your other issue, the whole "leather" or whatver.....You have green beer.

Temp and gravity are the two factors that contribute to the time it takes to carb beer.

Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the word, "patience."

Additionally once the three weeks or so has passed, chiling them down for a few days (not just a few hours or over night as most new brewers want to do ) will help the carbonation settle.

Don't touch your beers til AT LEAST THREE WEEKS IN THE BOTTLE...And more than likely you'll find that your beer is carbed fine, and tastes great.

Ok. I kept the other infected beers. After 2 months, it's just ever worst...
They all have been 2-3 weeks at the right temp, then place in the cold room for days and weeks.
Anyway, I hope you are right. I kept every bottle, because a part of me was saying just like you...

ghosthef said:

Are you using a plastic primary? Scratches can get bacteria in there and are very hard to get out. How about your oxygen lock? Are you filling it with tap water? I lost a batch after the primary cooled a bit and pulled tap water in. I put star san in now. There are so many variables.

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not true and certainly not helpful to someone who is just starting out with brewing. this is mostly paranoia that gets repeated over and over. can a scratch harbor bacteria? yes. are all of the random little scratches almost certainly found in every plastic bucket hard to sanitize? no.

Tiroux said:

Ok. I kept the other infected beers. After 2 months, it's just ever worst...
They all have been 2-3 weeks at the right temp, then place in the cold room for days and weeks.
Anyway, I hope you are right. I kept every bottle, because a part of me was saying just like you...

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it takes time to learn your process and get your beer where you want it to be and if you quit it will certainly not get better. some people start making great beer from the first batch and others end up dumping a few batches. what all successful brewers have in common is not a secret, they just kept brewing. that simple.

i don't fixate on a bad batch, i make a decision; set it aside for later if i feel that time will save the beer or dump it and don't repeat the mistake. all the while i keep brewing other beers. learning from your mistakes is the most important ingredient in brewing (even though exactly what the mistake was can sometimes be a mystery).

Your description definitely sounds like oxidation which is due to the introduction of oxygen in the process somewhere post fermentation so you need to evaluate your transfer methods and avoid an splashing or rough handling of the beer going into the bottles.

As per Revvy, you are sampling way to early to get a good evaluation of your beer-patience, let the beer condition and carbonate properly.

If the head disappears that rapidly it could be as simple as dirty glassware, any sort of soap residue or dishwasher residue can kill the head instantly. Clean your glassware with some simple soap and water and rinse thoroughly or use some vinegar and water solution as well for a nice squeaky clean glass and see if the head retention improves.

Thanks guys.

I know the best thing is to learn from our mistakes, and that's what I do all the time. I get that a long time ago. But, first... you have to find what is the problem, and that's what I'm trying to figure out right now.

Some other of my beers turnent out really great after 3 weeks in the bottle and were dangerously good and drinkable.

Anyway.. i'm fixing a couple of problems... I changed my equipment, my sanitizer, etc... I'll stick to glass for my fermentors (primary in 6gal, secondary in 5 gal), I'll double the sanitizing mania.
Next batches will tell.

You might consider not transferring to a secondary. Post ferment beer transfer could definitely be introducing oxygen. Most of us have really good luck leaving beer in the primary for months without off flavors. Rack once for bottling and use o2 absorbing caps.

PLOVE said:

You might consider not transferring to a secondary. Post ferment beer transfer could definitely be introducing oxygen. Most of us have really good luck leaving beer in the primary for months without off flavors. Rack once for bottling and use o2 absorbing caps.

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I might try it.. but i like the clarity it gives to transfert, and it restart the refermentation sometimes, when the yeast is sleepy. I'm not sure that my problem is post fermentation oxydation...

Tiroux said:

I might try it.. but i like the clarity it gives to transfert, and it restart the refermentation sometimes, when the yeast is sleepy. I'm not sure that my problem is post fermentation oxydation...

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Your beer will clarify in the primary as well if you leave it for enough time. If you are getting additional fermentation in the secondary vessel then you are transferring your beer to soon! The secondary is to be used, not for fermentation but as a clearing vessel or a place to rack onto fruit, oak or dry hop. None of those processes are supposed to occur before the beer has reached FG.

Transferring before the beer is at final gravity can cause all sorts of problems like no reduction of off flavors and stalled/stuck fermentation issues or beers that just won't reach FG.

For an experiment, leave your next beer in primary for 4 weeks, rack to bottling bucket and compare to your other beers.

I'll probably try it, since my next beer doesnt require any dry hop or addition.

That's something that intrigues me... I can't really state if it's a contamination or a off-flavor coming from an X factor. Anyways, at least... I now know better the bad things that can affect on either cases, so... I'll try to figure out ways to fix or prevent any of these problems.