Beer prejudice at restaurants?

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Pugilist

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I went to a local establishment that just opened last night and the food was delicious. However, they had a 3 page seperate wine list menu, but neither menu mentioned beer. I asked the waitress and they had the usual, BMC on tap and some old SA boston lager in bottles.

It got me thinking, more and more restaurants I go into do not have beer that compliments their meals, they always emphasize wine. The exception is David Burke, a well respected chef working with Sam Adams Co. with pairing meals and beer.

Why with so many beer enthusiasts world wide is this still happening?
 
Sadly there's a whole history of reasons why that is the case compounded with the fact that for the majority of Americans BMC's are the standard.

But some people are trying to change things. I heard on the basicbrewing podcast a couple of weeks ago about a beer sommelier program that has started. http://www.cicerone.org/

Cicerone Program Introduction said:
A Quick Introduction

"Cicerone" is pronounced "sis-uh-rohn"

The Cicerone Certification Program seeks to ensure that consumers receive the best possible beer and enjoy its flavors to the greatest extent possible. To facilitate this, those who sell and serve beer need to acquire knowledge in five areas:


Beer Storage, Sales and Service

Beer Styles and Culture

Beer Tasting and Flavors

Brewing Ingredients and Processes

Pairing Beer with Food

To encourage participation by those with various interests and ambitions, the program offers three levels of certification beginning with the simplest and building to the most complex and demanding:

1. Certified Beer Server

2. Certified Cicerone

3. Master Cicerone

Why Cicerone?

Anyone can call themselves an expert on beer. But when consumers want great beer they need help from a server who really knows beer flavors, styles and brands. They also want to buy from a place that understands proper storage and serving so the beer they drink will be of the highest quality. Too often great beer is harmed by improper service practices.

In the wine world, the word "sommelier" designates those with proven expertise in selecting, acquiring and serving fine wine. Lately some beer servers have adopted the title "beer sommelier" to tie into the credibility of the wine world. But anyone can call themselves a beer sommelier regardless of knowledge or experience. And while some will be highly skilled, the only way to demonstrate that objectively is through independent testing of knowledge and tasting ability. The Cicerone Certification Program offers that independent assessment and certification so that industry professionals—as well as consumers—can be sure of the knowledge and skills possessed by current and prospective beer servers.

What is a Cicerone?

The word Cicerone (pronounced sis-uh-rohn) has been chosen to designate those with proven expertise in selecting, acquiring and serving today’s wide range of beers. The titles “Certified Cicerone” and “Master Cicerone” are protected certification trademarks. Only those who have passed the requisite test of knowledge and tasting skill can call themselves a Cicerone.


What is the origin of the word “Cicerone”?

Cicerone is an English word referring to “one who conducts visitors and sightseers to museums and explains matters of archaeological, antiquarian, historic or artistic interest.” For beer, a Cicerone will possess the knowledge and skills to guide those interested in beer culture, including its historic and artistic aspects. “Cicerone” now designates a person with demonstrated expertise in beer who can guide consumers to enjoyable and high-quality experiences with great beer.

What is a sommelier?

The word “sommelier” designates an expert wine steward. Twenty or thirty years ago when beer was much simpler, those whose primary expertise was wine could fairly claim to know a great deal about beer. But today the world of beer is just as diverse and complicated as wine. As a result, developing true expertise in beer takes years of focused study and requires constant attention to stay on top of new brands and special beers. While it is certainly possible for someone to be expert in both wine and beer, the only way to prove that is by examination and certification in both fields. Only those with the title “Certified Cicerone” or “Master Cicerone” have demonstrated their expertise in selecting and serving fine beer.

How is a Cicerone different from a Beer Sommelier?

A Cicerone is a tested and proven expert in beer while beer sommelier is a self-designation that can be adopted by anyone. Because there are no criteria for the title of beer sommelier and because those who use the title have not subjected their knowledge and skills to an independent examination, consumers and employers can’t be sure just what a non-certified beer server knows or how they treat and serve the beer.

For an interesting insight into the history of beer and the attitudes about beer, that have got us in this sorry state, listen to these basic brewing podcasts.

December 7, 2006 - Ambitious Brew Part Two
We continue our discussion about the history of beer in the USA with Maureen Ogle, author of "Ambitious Brew - The Story of American Beer." Part two takes us from Prohibition to the present day.
Kirk's photo from the Grand Canyon


November 30, 2006 - Ambitious Brew Part One
We learn about the history of beer in the USA from Maureen Ogle, author of "Ambitious Brew - The Story of American Beer." Part one takes us from the Pilgrims to Prohibition.

Go here and scroll down till you find the above podcasts http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=60
 
I think it's a Phenomenon that IS changing, albeit very slowly.

However, I am in the Pacific North West, where the Microbrew industry has had a solid foothold for quite some time.

Don't forget, it's a relatively new development to have so many styles of American beer to choose from.
 
I went to a Morton's Steakhouse in Anaheim, CA and asked what they had on tap. Nothing on tap. Ok, so what do you have in bottles besides the big three? Um, well uh, one second. He just got done reciting the entire menu to us by heart and the ****** can't remember what beer they have. It's not like it was an extensive list. Sam Adams and Chimay was it. Nothing "west coast", Stone, Bear Repub.. nothin. Ok, Chimay it is. Woah, $22 a bottle.
 
Bobby_M said:
Woah, $22 a bottle.

Well, that might be one of the reasons. They can easily do this with wine and people actually think that the wine tastes better when it is more expensive. This is a study that they mentioned on npr a while ago.

Kai
 
I have been seeing a trend lately to include a small (but fantastic) complementary offering of craft beer on the menu at a number of upper mid range restaurants in my area. One has an all local beer menu with zero BMC products.
 
Oh, major props to the Red Robbin chain. The last time I was in there, they had Red Hook Long Hammer IPA, Stella, and Fat Tire on tap. Not amazing beers by any stretch, but good enough for a burger joint.
 
Funny, most of the establishments in my area, even the fairly low budget ones, have a decent selection of beers. I can't remember the last time i went somewhere and they didn't have at least 2 or 3 non-BMCs.
 
rdwj said:
Funny, most of the establishments in my area, even the fairly low budget ones, have a decent selection of beers. I can't remember the last time i went somewhere and they didn't have at least 2 or 3 non-BMCs.

Yeah I feel like I am on a decent streak, seems like I've been able to get at least a Sierra Nevada PA, or our upstate NY version, Saranac. Also, lately I've been in the mood for wheat and Blue Moon seems pretty common.
 
Simple economics, the profit margins on wine by the glass are enormous. They get 4-6 glasses of wine from a bottle and sell each for their cost of the bottle. Even by the bottle, a restaurant will sell at triple their costs.

My solution is to go to brewpubs and if I want a specialty food, to stay away from chains. Even then, you'll see the bias. My favorite brewpub has 10-12 brews on tap, but the wine list is six pages long.
 
down here in south jersey, there are a few restaurants that have really good beer selections - one place has 7-8 good beers on draft and numerous bottles. although they do maintain that their Weihenstephan Weissbier is from Belgium for some unspecified reason. i had a discussion with the waiter about it last time and he tells me "our distributor must be lying to us then because he says it's from belgium". going to talk to the boss next time i go - it just kind of annoys me that it's wrong. or is there another weihenstephan in belgium - surely not.
 
Alamo_Beer said:
Check out the menu for this local restraunt:

http://www.brewsterstreet.net/wiki/BST/Menu (Beers are about halfway down the page)

It's seriously laughable. I've never heard of Guiness being described as a "Special Premium Import" before...or for $4.25!!

You should have known not to go anywhere near a place with the phrase "Ice House" in their name.

BTW, I like the term "Super Import" :D It reminds me of how some manufacturers put the word "Deluxe" in front of their products to make them sound "special".

What I never understood (I actually got into a verbal dispute with a bartender once) is that most bars/restaurants will have a special on "Domestic" beers. Well the definition of domestic is that it is produced in this country, so how can they charge more for micro/craft beers? I guess to bars the word "domestic" is synonymous with "Crappy".
 
Alamo_Beer said:
It's seriously laughable. I've never heard of Guiness being described as a "Special Premium Import" before...or for $4.25!!

It's even more funny that they have Blue Moon listed as an import.
 
cd2448 said:
down here in south jersey, there are a few restaurants that have really good beer selections - one place has 7-8 good beers on draft and numerous bottles. although they do maintain that their Weihenstephan Weissbier is from Belgium for some unspecified reason. i had a discussion with the waiter about it last time and he tells me "our distributor must be lying to us then because he says it's from belgium". going to talk to the boss next time i go - it just kind of annoys me that it's wrong. or is there another weihenstephan in belgium - surely not.

A few? Oy, I only know one and that place is pretty expensive. It would really be nice not to have to go into Philly every time I wanted to go out for a good beer.

As for restaurants not carrying good beer... well I guess I've started including that in my criteria of where to go to eat. That, or I tend to go to a lot of BYO restaurants and I'll take a look at the menu ahead of time and bring something to match. I would really love to see more local places start carrying some of the local beers around here. Its ridiculous how few places in SJ carry Flying Fish, and its brewed within 15 minutes of the restaurant. Also you'd think that a beer called Philly Pale Ale could make it on to more lists. Maybe the new Philadelphia Brewing Co. will get some distribution with their name.
 
Bobby_M said:
Oh, major props to the Red Robbin chain. The last time I was in there, they had Red Hook Long Hammer IPA, Stella, and Fat Tire on tap. Not amazing beers by any stretch, but good enough for a burger joint.

hell yea, Bass Ale and Newcastle at the one here in Columbia, SC
 
I'm glad that at Cap Ale here in Richmond at least their domestic list (which is on special on Sundays, $2 or $3 a glass depending on what it is) is all domestics on tap. Bells, Rogue, whatever. They have BMC, but it's in bottles and it's not on the menu.
 
McKBrew said:
Very slowly. Eventually restaurants will realize that beer is the new wine.

Brewtopia made a post about the cicerone a few weeks ago. Anyone can actually create an acount and take a practice quiz.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=51378

Just took the quiz. I removed the answers in case you are planning to take it yourself. I'm going to go gloat now.


You scored 10 out of 10

Congratulations! You got every question right!

Here are the answers:

How much beer is contained in a standard ½ barrel US keg?
»you answered which is correct

Which if the following is most likely to help preserve the freshness and flavor of bottled beer?
»you answered which is correct

In the beer world, “SRM” is a measure of what beer characteristic?
»you answered which is correct

A properly operating draft system delivers cold, carbonated beer with an attractive foam head at a rate of about 1 gallon per minute. What three elements of the draft system must be in balance to achieve this?
»you answered Twhich is correct

The clove or nutmeg flavors associated with 4-vinyl guiacol (a phenol) are typically found in what style of beer?
»you answered which is correct

What role does “choker line” play in a draft system?
»you answered , which is correct

Compared to a Bohemian (Czech) Pilsner, a German Pilsner will usually be:
»you answered which is correct

Hops contribute to what aspects of beer taste?
»you answered which is correct

Which beer style is likely to have the highest alcohol content?
»you answered ,which is correct

A normal-strength beer that has been stored at room temperature for nine months would most likely exhibit what off-flavor:
»you answered ,which is correct
 
I went to Bravo! last weekend and uh...They had nothing on tap only bottles and the only thing they had that wasn't BMC was Amstel so I drank that at 4.50 a bottle!
 
Last summer, me and a buddy of mine went to a fine dining restaurant in philly. It just so happened that it was a Monday night, in which they ran a BYOB special. Not even considering that beer might be a problem, I ran to the local beer mega mart to pick up some Belgian imports to match our meal. On my way to pick him up, I decided to call the restaurant to see if there were any corking fees and how they pertained to bottles of beer. I couldn't believe what I heard when they told me they didn't allow beer!!! Guess they thought we were gonna walk in with a 6er of bud. Was a shame too, because the brew I bought would have went great with some of the courses we had. :(
 
You can boil it down to two things.
1. economics.
2. training.

It costs money to add taps, kegs and lines to a commercial draft system.
If the restaurant is making a profit with the existing system, it will most likely not add or change. Change is very expensive.

My current cashier staff is made up of part-time students. Some high school, some first and second year college. I am lucky. They speak English and count money accurately.

Other restaurants are not so lucky.

I could add additional beers to my menu, and my crew could handle it. they would grasp the difference between an IPA and a Hefeweizen.

The guy next door... his crew would need a few hours of concentrated hand holding, flashcards and a tickle me Elmo to carry out any changes to his menu.

back to economics.
15.5 Gallon Keg of Bud is $99.00 sell a pint for $4 equals $$$$$
15.5 Gallon Keg of Langunitas pale ale is $169.00 Sell a Pint for $4 equals $$

More money in BMC -vs - Craft brews. Simple.
 
Oh, major props to the Red Robbin chain. The last time I was in there, they had Red Hook Long Hammer IPA, Stella, and Fat Tire on tap. Not amazing beers by any stretch, but good enough for a burger joint.

All distributed by A-B if I remember right. having one source for beer makes it an easy decision for the bar/food and drink manager to make.
 
I went to a local cavery chain had a look at them food counter and the beer selection. They had crap beer on tap but 10 different types of bottled ales promenantley displayed at the back of the bar so I decided to stay and eat
I sat and ordered the food and a bottle of Black Sheep.

You know what's coming.

We don't serve black sheep sir.
Yes you do it's from the bottle selection.
Oh! they are just for decoration we don't sell them.
Okay, bye bye.

I went home had a sandwich and a pint or 3 of goblinII.
 
You people wouldn't have this problem if you took a little extra time in selecting your dining experience:

Step 1 - Does the word Brewery or Brewpub appear in the name?

Admittedly, I'm lucky that the owners of Golden Valley Brewery & Restaurant raise their own beef and they have a head chef that is a wizard with seafood.
 
Man, that sucks for you. The vast majority of places around here have at least a few local breweries on tap. I tend to avoid most restaurants that don't serve beer though.
 
Last summer, me and a buddy of mine went to a fine dining restaurant in philly. :(

Where did you go in Philly that was BYOB but wouldn't allow beer?

I won't let a beer menu dictate where I eat. I would would enjoy the meal, and possibly go to a better place afterwards. UNO's Chicago Pizzeria is a chain with mediocre food and excellent beer though.
 
It was La Croix at the Rittenhouse. After dinner, it was a quick cab ride down to Monk's for dessert, so that made up for the lack of beer while eating. :rockin:
 
It's seriously laughable. I've never heard of Guiness being described as a "Special Premium Import" before...or for $4.25!!

$4. 25 for a Guinness? Do you think that is expensive? That's on the low to average price in NY. Hell, the local bar sells Bud in a bottle for just a little less.
 
It was La Croix at the Rittenhouse. After dinner, it was a quick cab ride down to Monk's for dessert, so that made up for the lack of beer while eating. :rockin:


I dunno about when you went but Lacroix has a liquor license, which likely doesn't permit them to allow you to bring beer on premises.

Course, you made up for that just fine w/ desert :)
 
In Omaha it kind of varies. Obviously the main stream Applebee's, Chili's and such are strictly BMC, however some of the local restaurants seem to understand and appreciate the varied and vast selection of beers and have a tendency to stock while not a lot of them, a decent selection, which more cases than not will satisfy a more discerned palate.

We also have a few specialty restaurants that cater to beer snobs such as myself. One the Dundee Dell is famous for its vast selection of beers from around the world. It also has a very large selection of Scotch, Whiskey's, and more recently a great selection of Tequila.

The owners/managers are very nice people too, and are more than willing to assist in pairing food with beers. If you ever get to Omaha you should definately check it out. http://www.dundeedell.com/
 
Rural PA is sort of a different story - in addition to the big three, we have Lager, the yeungling lager, which is on tap at any and every establishment. Only at a sushi bar will the waitress not understand when someone simply asks for "lager, please". Maybe it's the PA german thing, but I don't ever have trouble finding a fair selection of respectable micros & imports. In my town we have an Irish pub with a truly spectacular tap & bottle selection and another place that has a revolving beer menu that even shows the new beers they will be bringing in.
 
One of the good things I've found about my new home (Rapid City, South Dakota) is a little place called the Firehouse. It's an old fire station that's been converted into a brewpub. They've only got 9 original brews, and they rotate in availability, but every one of them is amazing. All of their waiters are able and willing to suggest which of their beers will pair well with your meal. Oh, and they have an ale gorgonzola soup that is just... well... it's beer and cheese. You figure it out :p
 
a lot of brewpubs and even simple restaurants are begining to have rotating taps, meaning when they run out of one beer they get a whole differnet beer. most of them have anywhere from 5 to 30 microbrews on tap. almost all of them have the good beer on tap and the macros in bottles which i think is great. by the way im from buffalo ny.
 
back to economics.
15.5 Gallon Keg of Bud is $99.00 sell a pint for $4 equals $$$$$
15.5 Gallon Keg of Langunitas pale ale is $169.00 Sell a Pint for $4 equals $$

More money in BMC -vs - Craft brews. Simple.

I think the issue is that there is a large and growing crowd of people who
would gladly spend the money for a proper beer selection when they go out.
I don't expect restaurants that cater to bud drinkers to start carrying Stone,
but it would be nice to see more places that DO cater to people that want
to drink craft beers.

To be fair, in the two metro areas I've lived in there have been no lack of
places with a 100+ beer selection. I don't think I've ever even had time to
read the whole list at Brickstore
 
Where did you go in Philly that was BYOB but wouldn't allow beer?

I won't let a beer menu dictate where I eat. I would would enjoy the meal, and possibly go to a better place afterwards. UNO's Chicago Pizzeria is a chain with mediocre food and excellent beer though.

I was wondering the same. You know what doesn't count in this "no beer" byo policy? 22 ozers. Those are treated more like wine. I took a couple Iron Hill champagne corked 22 ozers to the LaCroix and they didn't bat an eye.

LaCroix is not really a byo in the traditional sense though. It has a liquor license yet allows you to bring bottles in.

One of the things I love the most about Philly is that there are so many excellent BYO restaurants. Not just 5 or 10 or a couple dozen. But probably a couple hundred. Really good restaurants. + I get to bring my own homebrew. FTW!

True there also some good taprooms and brewpubs but I hate to pay 3-400% markup for beer or wine. I am very much spoiled by BYO.

The wife and I ate dinner at the Fountain at the Four Seasons last weekend and the tab with wine was $540. (yes, for two) $260 of that was wine! Never asked about beer.

By contrast last month we went to Marigold in University City and the tab was $240. This meal was better than the Fountain meal.

I've gotten to the point where I hate to find out that a restaurant has a liquor license.
 
Oh, major props to the Red Robbin chain. The last time I was in there, they had Red Hook Long Hammer IPA, Stella, and Fat Tire on tap. Not amazing beers by any stretch, but good enough for a burger joint.


+1

The kids love the place and the beer selection makes it a good outing :mug:
 
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