What does tannin extraction taste/smell like?

Yakima 728
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cscade

cscade

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I brewed this beer, which is now in my glass:

Recipe: Safale Pale
Style: 8A-English Pale Ale-Standard/Ordinary Bitter

Recipe Overview
Wort Volume Before Boil: 8.00 US gals
Wort Volume After Boil: 6.00 US gals
Volume Transferred: 5.00 US gals
Water Added: 0.00 US gals
Volume At Pitching: 5.00 US gals
Final Batch Volume: 4.25 US gals
Expected Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.030 SG
Expected OG: 1.041 SG
Expected FG: 1.011 SG
Expected ABV: 3.9 %
Expected ABW: 3.1 %
Expected IBU (using Tinseth): 25.6
Expected Color: 4.0 SRM
Apparent Attenuation: 72.9 %
Mash Efficiency: 90.0 %
Boil Duration: 60.0 mins
Fermentation Temperature: 70 degF

Fermentables
US Pale Ale Malt (Briess) 6lb 10oz (90.9 %) In Mash/Steeped
White Wheat Malt (Rahr) 300g (9.1 %) In Mash/Steeped

Hops
UK Fuggle (4.0 % alpha) 40 g Loose Pellet Hops used All Of Boil
UK Fuggle (4.0 % alpha) 30 g Loose Pellet Hops used 5 Min From End

Other Ingredients
Whirlfloc Tablet 1 used In Boil
Servomyces 1 used In Boil

Yeast: DCL S-04-SafAle

Mash Schedule
Mash Type: Full Mash
Schedule Name:Single Step Infusion (68C/154F) w/Mash-Out
Step: Rest at 154 degF for 60 mins
Step: Raise to and Mash out at 168 degF for 25 mins​
​

It's a very simple, clean, light beer. Honestly, I'm extremely pleased with it, especially for a "throw it together from what I had" recipe. I have never brewed a beer this light, and it has an odd grainyness in the top palate when you exhale after taking a drink.

It's not present in the aroma before taking a drink, or during on the palate, or after swallowing. But then if you take a breath and exhale through the nose (I often do this to get a "reflection" on the bittering hops aroma when tasting), you get this pronounced, raw sort of bready/grainy sensation in the nose. It smells bready and feels grainy if that makes any sense. I noticed this in the post-fermentation gravity sample as well, so this is not an artifact of packaging.

This is both the lightest beer I have ever brewed, as well as the first and only time I have done acid adjustments to the mash and the sparge.

Any thoughts? Does anyone recognize this? Tannin extraction? DMS perhaps?
 
Here's a photo;

image-2745546769.jpg
 
Thanks for that link! Definitely not tannin extraction then. DMS maybe? Seems weird to be getting that with pale ale malt on a 60 minute full boil though.
 
Pale Ale Malt (not 2-row) plus wheat mashed at 154 will give you more mouthfeel than you may expect from a lightly colored beer. Chances are you're just tasting malt and the silk from the wheat.
 
tre9er said:
Pale Ale Malt (not 2-row) plus wheat mashed at 154 will give you more mouthfeel than you may expect from a lightly colored beer. Chances are you're just tasting malt and the silk from the wheat.
Click to expand...

Yes, you have succeeded in making a good tasting beer. Assuming you like it.
 
You guys crack me up ;)

Seriously though, the aroma, flavor, mouthfeel, and overall impression are all very good. I'm pleased with it! That said, I've had an awful lot of good beer in my life with a good majority of them being "session" scale and this thing I'm describing is something I've never experienced even once. I'm pretty stoked that nobody's like "oh yeah, obviously there was a groundhog in your mash, I've had that" or some other crazy flaw. Now it's an adventure! If it doesn't change with age, I'll ship out some bottles for tasting :D
 
Ya know - I just brewed an English mild (1.039) that had a sort of grainyness and breadyness at first. It was not unpleasant but not as polished as I'd like...

Anyhow, it went away as soon as the beer completely cleared, I guess it was a little yeastyness left over from the US 04. I'd wager that after another week or two your beer will shine and the flavors will round out too.

p.s. I noticed your photo shows a little sediment still in suspension (yeast? protein?) :mug:


M
 
Rip said:
Ya know - I just brewed an English mild (1.039) that had a sort of grainyness and breadyness at first. It was not unpleasant but not as polished as I'd like...

Anyhow, it went away as soon as the beer completely cleared, I guess it was a little yeastyness left over from the US 04. I'd wager that after another week or two your beer will shine and the flavors will round out too.

p.s. I noticed your photo shows a little sediment still in suspension (yeast? protein?) :mug:


M
Click to expand...

Yeah, how long did it sit in primary? Cold crash? Secondary? What's it in now, kegs, bottles? How long? If kegged, did you pour off the first pint or so? I bet if you leave it alone for a week or a few days at least, then pour off the first pint...it will be much better.
 
Did you ever pinpoint what this flavor/smell was? I think I am experiencing the same thing as you describe, a grainy, maybe yeasty taste only when exhaling through the nose after taking a drink. Ive had it on a few brews now, with different yeasts and malts. I think i am getting it the mash somehow, or possibly from oxygenating, or maybe trub in the fermentor. I use ro water and build back minerals while keeping ph in check. Let me know if you have any more info.
 
With such a simple recipe like this (pale malt and wheat malt) it's probably safe to say that the grain / yeast / bready flavor is due to the yeasty and maybe fermentation conditions.

If you don't like it, scratch that yeast off your favorites list or change the fermentation conditions.
 
Hey guys, I missed that this thread was still active. Apologies.

Here's what happend since my last post;

1. The beer is long gone :)
2. Over time (4+ weeks) the flavor/aroma described subsided, but slowly and never completely.
3. The beer cleared to crystal long before the 4 week mark, and the clearing had no effect on the perception of this. Implies: not yeast in suspension.
4. I have now experienced it in two other beers of mine, with different yeasts and conditioning. Implies: not the yeast.

The common thread in all three beers in which I detected it was: Briess Pale Ale malt. It showed up BIG in this beer, because that was the primary malt. When I have used it again in more complex and bigger recipes, the thing is there again, just less obviously. In the beers brewed without that malt, on the same process (even using S-04) I can't detect it.

So that's my non-scientific conclusion in my environment on my system. I won't be using that malt anymore :)

Veedo - were you using it by chance?
 
Negative, I have had it with rahr and some 2 row from farmhouse brewing. Do you dump all the cold and hot break into the fermentor? Maybe its the whirlfloc? I searched forever trying to find someone with the same description. Glad I'm not alone.
 
Damn. I was hoping for an easy alignment!

The whirlfloc is a maybe I suppose, however I have been using 1 tab/5gal for 3 years now, and never saw this until this year. So I'd doubt it.

Process wise, I do a 10 minute rest post boil, then drain through a hop screen into a plate chiller, into a conical. I get very, very little break material compared to what most people are used to. Here's what it looks like immediately after chilling:

01.jpg


My mash is a HERMS, I do a 60 minute mash, with a mash out to 168F for 20 minutes before fly sparging with acidified water. Before settling on the grain as the problem, I was suspecting the mash. My previous system was a static mash (functionally equal to what people do with coolers) with no recirculation, and I never had this. It only started showing up with the HERMS system. That was why I initially thought tannins, because I suspected I was picking up character from the husks as a result of the constant recirculation.
 
Hmm, I am brewing via biab, so quite a Difference in process to have the same problem. I am planning an extract brew to see if i still get this problem. I am doing 5 gallon batches, mashing 60 Minutes with 6 gallons, pull bag and squeeze, then top off before boil. Ph is always in check with appropriate water adjustments. After boil i chill with an immersion chiller and transfer wort to my bucket through a screen by pouring everything in. Hop matter is screened out, but most of the trub goes into the bucket i am sure. I oxygenate with a stone and pure o2 also.
 
Very different process. If anything though, that should help us narrow to the real issue. :)

I oxygenate with a stone as well, but not with dry yeast (and my most pronounced batch was S-04). I adjust my water with Gypsum and Calcium Chloride, but only in small amounts (I like a chloride/sulphate ratio around 1). I use potassium metabisulfite for chlorine/chloramine removal at 0.5g/20gal. Depending on grain composition and thickness my mash pH varies from 5.4 up to 5.7 (by meter). I sparge with acidified water.

I was about to suspect a change in water since we're not too far apart, but you say you build back from RO, so that's not it.

I'll keep updating with more findings as I have them (like if it presents with other grains).
 
we should be able to figure it out! my worst batch was with s-04 also. but i have a pale ale with wlp01, and an esb with 1968, and they both have it, although not as bad. i have a wheat on tap that doesnt have it, but im not sure i would be able to detect it with the funky wheat yeast. i keep ferm temps in check with a temp controlled freezer, so i should be good there. only thing that keeps jumping out at me is the trub. after using whirlfloc and chilling, if i leave the kettle sit for a few minutes i get some serious seperation, but i always dump it all in anyways. so many others have luck with this method it is hard to believe.
 
I find that Pale Ale malt has a much different flavor than 2-row, and I actually rather like it. I use it for most brews unless I'm making a light wit, pilsner, or fizzy yellow type beer. It has more malt characteristic, even at a low mash temp, than 2-row and I prefer it, even in pales and IPAs where I want the hops to shine. Just a preference, personally, but I'm wondering if perhaps you just don't fancy that particular malt.
 
its something i have never experienced with commercial beers. take a sip, swallow, then breath through the nose. i only pick it up when breathing through the nose, very strange. i really dont know how to explain it, other than maybe yeasty, grainy or bready. i dont like it.
 
any progress?

the more i think about it, the more i keep thinking its in the mash somehow. my first few all grains did not have this flavor, and for those beers, i did a 60 minute mash, with frequent stirring, and then 10 minute mash out at 168. for my last few batches ive been doing a 60 minute mash with no stirring and no mash out. (biab). i know that most recent research states that conversion is complete in less than a half hour, but maybe its different with the extra water with biab. it could be unconverted starches that carried over? how thick do you mash?

i have an extract batch fermenting now, we shall see if i get any of the same flavors.
 
Nothing worth mentioning yet. My most recent batch into kegs is a pale beer with US-05, and there's no sign of the "thing".

I mash at 1.5qt/lb, which is pretty middling. Mash thickness is a bell curve as it relates to conversion. A thinner mash will improve conversion up to a point because of better surface exposure, but as you continue to thin it out conversion drops off from dilution of the amylase enzymes and less-ideal pH from the relatively lower buffering capacity of the grist.

I'm still thinking mash as well, so my next place to look will be at water adjustments, which for me are unique per beer. Do you have a report for the water you are working with? Mine is attached from July of this year.

 
ive been using RO with additions. i use ezwatercalculator and always keep my ph between 5.4-5.6 at room temp.
 
Any updates on this? Have you had it happen again? Just curious, how clear is your wort after mashing? I think my issue may be excess grain dust, etc, left in the kettle after pulling my bag. Next brew I am going to loosen up my crush a little and try a mash tun.
 

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