Mashing, sparging and brewing in a single pot?

I'm about to brew my first batch, and it's a partial mash. After buying all of the equipment, I only had enough $$ left for one 5-gallon stainless steel pot. I'm wondering if it's possible to mash, sparge and boil in that single pot.

The instructions for my Oatmeal Stout from Seven Bridges Collective suggest that it is. Here's the relevant section:

1a. Heat 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 gallons of water to 160-165, then turn the heat off. Add the grain bag and stir well. The temperature should be 150. Adjust if necessary by adding heat, hot water, or cold water.

1b. Allow the grains to soak for 40 to 60 minutes at 150. Do a starch test to see if the mash is done.

2a. Heat 1 1/2 gallons of water to 170 in a separate pot [my note: I have an 8 qt. pot that can handle this much water]. Sparge the grains with this water when the mash is complete.

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[Here is the technique they recommend for sparging in the mashing pot]

First, heat your sparge water (1 to 2 gallons, depending on your recipe) to 170 oF. Open the top of the grain bag and hold it up so that the level of the grains inside the bag is slightly higher than the level of water in your brew pot (see picture, left). Using a ladle or a measuring cup, slowly pour the sparge water over the grains inside the bag. Try to pour most of the water as close to the center of the bag as possible; this will extract the highest possible amount of sugars. Allow the sparged grains to drain for a few minutes, then squeeze the bag gently to extract more of the remaining liquid. If the bag is too hot to handle, set it aside to cool- you can squeeze the bag into you brew later in the brewing process.

It is important to not try and wring out every last drop of liquid from the grains, as this will add too much solid matter to the brew and can affect the taste and clarity of the finished beer. The spent grains are no longer needed for the brew, as the flavor and color have already been extracted.

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After the sparge is complete I would put about 1.5 gallons of the wort aside to cool and add to the primary fermenter (because I'm doing a partial boil) and use the remaining 3 gallons in the pot for brewing with the extract.

Does this make sense? Will it work well?

i'm not an expert on partial mashing in the least, but here is my opinion. i would just re-calculate the water so you didnt have to put any wort on the side un-boiled. i dont know if adding un boiled wort would have any effects (aside from the obvious sanitation issue) but i wouldnt do it. maybe drop the mashing water down to 2 gal and sparge with 1 gal, boil and top off to 5 with water in the fermenter?

Do some reading on "Brew in a Bag."

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4650

DeathBrewer has a great thread sticky at the top of this page about doing partial mashes using only two pots. With pics and all. It is a great source of info.
I will be following it for my next (first partial mash) brew.
Dave

Mash in your 5 g pot. You really don't have to sparge but if you wanted to, heat 1 gallon in the small pot up to 180F and dunk the grain bag in there after the mash is done. Remove the bag, discard, then pour that wort into the main pot. Pouring water into a grain bag is a horrible way to sparge.

I looked at the DeathBrewer thread and that seems like a good approach for me. If I use 2.25 gallons for the mash and 1.5 gallons for the sparge, then I can easily boil the full 3.75 gallons of wort with the extract in the 5 gallon pot and just add 1.5 gallons of sterilized water to the primary fermenter to top it off.

Thanks for the tips!

Totally off topic. A+ user name, switters.

carnevoodoo said:

Totally off topic. A+ user name, switters.

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Ah, another Tom Robbins fan!

This link is great.
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4650

Its a breeze to brew this way. I tend to stir the mash constantly if I need to add heat and will continue for a few minutes after. Most of time I don;t need to fire the kettle during the mash as I put the lid on and found a cardbord box that fits nicely over the kettle.

I think the few people in the link above who don't like the method haven't tried it. Its awesome for 5gallons or less all grain.

This can EASILY be done. Sparging obviously will be difficult, but you could mash out.

You're efficiency will be low, but it's a good method for partial mash brewing if you're just beginning to learn how to mash.

EDIT: I've had better efficiencies doing this method than AG outside in the mash tun, sparging and all that crap.

switters said:

I looked at the DeathBrewer thread and that seems like a good approach for me. If I use 2.25 gallons for the mash and 1.5 gallons for the sparge, then I can easily boil the full 3.75 gallons of wort with the extract in the 5 gallon pot and just add 1.5 gallons of sterilized water to the primary fermenter to top it off.

Thanks for the tips!

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keep in mind the grains will absorb water (PM usually about half gallon) and an hour of boiling usually evaporates at least a gallon for me.

petep1980 said:

This can EASILY be done. Sparging obviously will be difficult, but you could mash out.

You're efficiency will be low, but it's a good method for partial mash brewing if you're just beginning to learn how to mash.

EDIT: I've had better efficiencies doing this method than AG outside in the mash tun, sparging and all that crap.

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Which method are you referring to? The one in bigjoe's post?

elmetal said:

keep in mind the grains will absorb water (PM usually about half gallon) and an hour of boiling usually evaporates at least a gallon for me.

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Thanks for the reminder. So I guess if I mash with 2.5 gallons and sparge with 2 gallons I could expect to end up with maybe 4 gallons of wort pre-boil? After boiling I might expect to end up with 3 gallons, which means I'd be adding another 2.25 of water to the fermenter to top it off to 5.25.

switters said:

Which method are you referring to? The one in bigjoe's post?

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I've done that deathbrewer's method which has worked well.

But the following seems like it would work (at least in my buzzed up mind right now):

1. In a giant sparge back place grains.
2. Heat up mash in water to proper temp and add grains
3. Mash in, and cover (remove from head)
4. After time is up you can add heat to the bottom until you get to mash out temps.
5. Remove bag
6. Continue brew as usual

It's not ideal, but it'll definately make good beer.

switters said:

Thanks for the reminder. So I guess if I mash with 2.5 gallons and sparge with 2 gallons I could expect to end up with maybe 4 gallons of wort pre-boil? After boiling I might expect to end up with 3 gallons, which means I'd be adding another 2.25 of water to the fermenter to top it off to 5.25.

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it'll probably be closer to 5 gallons preboil but YMMV

beersmith and promash do a decent job of telling you how much water you'll need and everything

petep1980 I don't sparge either, but Im using almost double the water volume of the OP. I think the thinner mash doesn't require it to get a decent efficiency. I did this method last sunday and got 77% efficiency (no sparge). I mashed out, but if I wasn't direct firign I wouldn't most likely. I ramped up to quick sunday and only mashed out for 5 minutes at the most before I pulled the grain bag.

I guess what I'm saying is mash with as much water as you possibly can. You increase your efficiency, if you don't want to sparge.

I don't agree with mashing with as much water as you can. You can go too thin. You probably shouldn't exceed 2.5qts per pound of grain. You'll be diluting your enzymes and could be causing pH issues depending on what your water makeup is. If anything, mash a little thicker and then chuck a gallon of hot water in right before you remove the grain bag. I'd still recommend the dunk sparge in your smaller second pot.

My biggest pot is 5 gallons so I will be mashing with 2.5 gallons (4.75 lbs. of grain), which is in line with Bobby's recommendation for not exceeding 2.5 qts. per pound of grain. I'll use perhaps another 2 gallons for sparge to end up with 4 gallons or so of wort pre-boil.

As others have pointed out, you really want a better sparge. Here's an idea that's somewhat similar to what I do and it only requires one pot but also requires a plastic bucket fermenter:

You could mash in your kettle, dump it into your fermentation bucket, and while everything is draining heat your sparge water with your kettle and sparge directly into the kettle using the deathbrewer method. Then dump the first runnings back into the kettle from the fermenter and away you go...

The big problem would be that you can't heat your sparge water until you're already collecting your first runnings. That might take a while. My exact method is a bag method similar to deathbrewer but mashed in a 5 gallon Gott water cooler. (I the cooler lying around and didn't want to permanently alter it.)

Let me qualify "as much water as you can".

As much as you can in your 5 gallon pot with 4.75 lbs of grain, I doubt you'll get over the 2.5 quart threshhold but maybe you will.

I do 10 lbs of grain in 5.5 - 6 gallons (22 quart) for a 1.050ish brew. Thats 2.2 - 2.4 quarts per pound. Thats as thin as my mash will get.

Sorry for the confusion.

You'll be good with 10 qts water / 4.75 lbs grain = 2.1 qts per pound of grain.

Edit: I don't think you need to sparge.

I just didn't want anyone to think mashing 2lbs in a full 5 gallon pot would be a good idea. I think we all agree.

hal2814 said:

As others have pointed out, you really want a better sparge. Here's an idea that's somewhat similar to what I do and it only requires one pot but also requires a plastic bucket fermenter:

You could mash in your kettle, dump it into your fermentation bucket, and while everything is draining heat your sparge water with your kettle and sparge directly into the kettle using the deathbrewer method. Then dump the first runnings back into the kettle from the fermenter and away you go...

The big problem would be that you can't heat your sparge water until you're already collecting your first runnings. That might take a while. My exact method is a bag method similar to deathbrewer but mashed in a 5 gallon Gott water cooler. (I the cooler lying around and didn't want to permanently alter it.)

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This is a good idea for you, IMO, although I'd go a bit further and just say mash in the fermentation bucket! Heat your mash water (I definitely agree with Bobby M. that you shouldn't mash too thin. I've used DB's method very successfully, and I've found that about 1.5 qts/lb gives me ~70% efficiency every time), pour it into the fermentation bucket, mix your grains well, check temps, etc. Then wrap the bucket in a few heavy towels to keep heat.

About 20 minutes before your mash is done, start heating up sparge water in the 5 gallon pot. Follow DB's method from there.

Really easy and produces excellent beer.

Basically, as long as you can insulate it, you can do your mash in any vessel. When I did this method I used a nice 4-gallon pot that I had. Wrapped in a towel, it wouldn't lose a degree in 60 min, especially if I calculated things so that there was very little headspace in the pot. Some people also use smaller coolers. Just make sure you insulate.

My advice (FWIW, definitely) would be to use DB's method for a bit, since if you're planning on moving to AG anytime, it gives you a great way to get used to the process, learn the steps, etc.

Thanks, Palefire. So it sounds like you recommend using a little less water for the mash than I was planning to. With 4.75 lbs. of grain @ 1.5 qts/lb. it would be 1.8 gallons.

What about the sparge water volume? Is it also a good idea to use less, rather than more, water in that step? How much sparge water would you use in this case?

Perhaps I wasn't clear to begin with. I do have two kettles. One is a 5 gallon, the other is a 2 gallon. So, I can do the initial mash in the 5 gallon, turn off the heat, and insulate it with some heavy towels. Meanwhile, I can heat up the sparge water in the 2 gallon pot and then sparge according to DB's method in that one. I would then add the sparge water back to the wort in the 5 gallon pot, and add enough sterilized water to get it to approx. 3 gallons for the boil (I'll be doing a partial boil).

Oops, I just realized that the idea is to minimize head space as much as possible when mashing. So if I'm doing 4.75 lbs. @ 1.5 qts/lb., that will take up 2.16 gallons of space. If I use a 5 gallon pot, that's a lot of headspace and I imagine it will be harder to maintain at 150. The problem is that my other pot is only 2 gallon so I can't really use it for the mash with this volume.

But I guess what Palefire is saying is that as long as it's wrapped and insulated well, the vessel shouldn't lost much heat regardless of how much headspace there is?

Getting complicated and it doesn't need to be. I think you had it here:

So, I can do the initial mash in the 5 gallon, turn off the heat, and insulate it with some heavy towels. Meanwhile, I can heat up the sparge water in the 2 gallon pot and then sparge according to DB's method in that one. I would then add the sparge water back to the wort in the 5 gallon pot, and add enough sterilized water to get it to approx. 3 gallons for the boil (I'll be doing a partial boil).

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Insulate with towels, blankets, oven set at 150F, cardboard box, rotting deer carcus, etc...

Direct heat also an option, but doubt you'll need to if you insulate.

Head space isn't an issue if it's heated where you want it. When I mash in my cooler, I overshoot my strike temp by about 5 degrees. Then I dump it in, seal it, wait 5 minutes, and stir to cool it to my actual strike temp (if needed). Even with partials in a 5 gallon cooler, I get negligible heat loss over the course of an hour with this method.

switters said:

Oops, I just realized that the idea is to minimize head space as much as possible when mashing. So if I'm doing 4.75 lbs. @ 1.5 qts/lb., that will take up 2.16 gallons of space. If I use a 5 gallon pot, that's a lot of headspace and I imagine it will be harder to maintain at 150. The problem is that my other pot is only 2 gallon so I can't really use it for the mash with this volume.

But I guess what Palefire is saying is that as long as it's wrapped and insulated well, the vessel shouldn't lost much heat regardless of how much headspace there is?

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Yes, exactly. If it's well insulated, head space shouldn't matter.

As far as sparge water amount goes, you basically don't ever want to go over 4 qts. (total, i.e. mash + sparge water) per lb of grain. But, especially if you're doing partial mash, you should sparge with as much water as you can, since you'll get better efficiency that way. So in this case, if you mash with 1.8 gallons of water, you have almost 3 gallons you can sparge with. I'd use them all!

So the process would be something like this: mash in whatever well-insulated container you want with 1.8 gallons. After an hour, pull out the grain bag, let it drain fully, then sparge with the 2.9 (or whatever - just do a little less than 3) gallons of sparge water you've heated in your 5-gallon pot. Mix well, let sit for 10 minutes, pull the bag out, drain. Then add your mash water to the sparge water and boil! You should have something like 4.2 gallons of wort in your 5-gallon pot. If you watch carefully or use Fermcap, you can easily boil that much without boiling over.

Do a late extract addition (search for threads on that) to get full hop utilization. After your wort is boiled and cooled, top off with enough cold water to get 5 gallons in the fermenter.

Good luck - should go great.

You guys are the best. Thanks a lot for everyone's help.