Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

Last night some friends came over and we polished off another 13 liters of various batches – Seven with wild yeast and five with various other yeasts.

The overall favorite was a bottle of farmhouse cider made by the guy who runs the press where I get most of my juice. He gave me a couple of liters at the beginning of the year, from a barrel that they let ferment naturally in one of the sheds. It was a mix of Staymans and Winesaps and at the time was very sweet – sg of 1.030 when I drank the first liter. The second liter has been sitting in my fridge since January. It must have continued to carbonate in the fridge because it popped and started foaming hard as soon I opened it. I had to snap the top back on to keep it in the bottle. My guess is that the SG dropped at least another 5 points or so while it was in the fridge. Fortunately it didn’t crack the bottle. It tasted a lot like a JK Scrumpy. Distinct natural yeast taste, fairly sweet, but not overly so.

Just behind the farmhouse cider, rating-wise, was another wild yeast cider - a keg batch I made last Fall, from Staymans and Romes, pressed Nov 24. The SG was 1.064 and I crashed it on Dec 19 at 1.014. It wasn’t quite as sweet as the farmhouse – more like a Samuel Smith than a JK Scrumpy. Some folks like it better because it wasn’t so sweet, but on average the farmhouse batch scored a little higher.

Number three, and my personal favorite of this round, was from the same Stayman/Rome batch, no extra sugar and S04 yeast. Crashed at 1.010 on Dec 20. I left it in the secondary until March 12, hoping it would clear, but it never did. The two liters I pulled from the keg finally did clear. Its probably more accurate so say they are still in the process of clearing. Most of the bottle was clear as a bell, with about an inch of sediment on the bottom that hasn’t compacted yet. Overall, it was nice and crisp with great apple flavor. Even the sediment tasted good.

Almost tied with the Staymans/Rome/S04 batch was a bottle of York and Fuji with Wyeast 3068 – always a crowd favorite. I don’t think it was quite as good as when it was in the keg and my girlfriend agreed. Still very drinkable, but maybe a little past its peak. I didn’t put any k-meta in this batch, and its been almost 6 months since pressing, which might have something to do with the taste peaking.

The other ale yeast batches were mostly OK – nothing to write home about though.

The other 5 wild yeast batches were interesting – unfortunately not in a good way. These were all from single gallon batches, Staymans and Winesaps pressed on Oct 30 with sg of 1.50. I made three liters from each gallon. The first round was tasted in January (see page 7) and it was not all that great. Six months later the taste has changed somewhat, but not really gotten any better. These batches were the first time that I was able to get wild yeast to ferment down to 1.002 without picking up some sort of weird taste. However they don’t have much taste at all, except for the two that I sorbated (which taste mostly like sorbate, even though I only used half the recommended dosage). The ones that I added the k-meta to had lost the k-meta bitterness, but not much else to take its place

The interesting thing is that the three that I cold crashed all started fermenting again. They were very well carbonated even though I bottled them still – even the two that I added varying amounts of k-meta to. That would lead me to believe that wild yeast doesn’t cold crash very well, especially since the only bottle I’ve every burst was with a wild yeast batch last summer. However – the Stayman/Rome wild yeast batch, mentioned above, crashed just fine. I kegged that batch at 1.014 in January and saved a couple of liters when I finished the keg in March. It wasn’t any more carbonated than any of the other liters that I filled from kegs earlier this year. That make me wonder if for wild yeast, it is not just the cold crashing that stops the yeast, but cold crashing followed by kegging at 25psi. I’m not sure why that would make any difference, but it’s the main difference I can think of. It could also be different wild yeasts, although the apples were all from the same orchard and press. Both mixes used Staymans and it seems unlikely that Winesaps and Romes would have different yeast on them, but maybe.

I’m tempted to not touch the last bottle of Stayman/Rome wild batch and see if it eventually starts carbonating. But since it’s the last bottle and its good, I’m more tempted to drink it soon, just in case it does burst. Next season I’ll do more wild yeast keg batches so hopefully I’ll have enough extra bottles at this time of the year that I can afford to sacrifice one or two to see what happens. On the other hand, I’m going to let the last 5 Stayman/Winesap wild yeast bottles sit another 6 months. Since I bottled them at 1.002, I don’t see how they could get much more carbed. If one does burst I wont have lost much, and the taste can only improve from here.

So, I got some US04 yeast, and dumped a bit of maple syrup in it, and got the SG up to about 1.055. But I to an SG reading today, and it was already at 1.002. And that's after about 4 days. Now, maybe it's because I'm using pasteruized yeast, or something else, but I don't have any idea how you can let cider go for 25-30 days without it being completely fermented. Is it the honey?

Worth noting is that for this batch I added some yeast nutrient as well. I wonder if that made is work so much faster? I'm just trying to get a system in place for when I can get some fresh cider and do a 5 gallon batch. This batch was a 1 gallon batch.

So, I racked it into another one gallon bottle, and added some honey. I'm planning on watching the SG more closely this time, and trying to stop it around 1.010. We'll see how it turns out.

Brad - Its mostly the temperature. Fermentation speed increases exponentially with temp.

I brew in my basement, which is a lot cooler than the rest of the house. The first batch of the season is usually ready to crash in 8-10 days. As it gets later into the season, the basement gets colder and fermentation times get longer. The last batch of the season went well over a month before crashing

Gallon batches ferment faster than 5 gallon batches and the yeast nutrient probably speeds things up as well

I prefer a slower ferment, because its easier to manage multiple batches. I suspect it may also be easier to crash a batch that isnt fermenting so vigorously, but I'm not sure about that. I've never used yeast nutrient. The only time I've ever had a stuck fermentation was this past season on my first keg batch using 3068. It started at 1.060 and stuck at 1.030. It tasted great and my girlfriend said it was the best one yet, so at this point, getting another stuck fermentation seems more like good luck than a problem.

Last Sunday I cohosted a cider dinner with some friends . We checked out 14 liters of last season’s cider to see how they hold up over time. Twenty folks were kind enough to fill out rating sheets. About half of these are brewers and/or winemakers and I got some good feedback. Of the three tastings that I’ve done in the past six weeks, this bunch came out the best.

The juice was from three different apple pressings, made in five gallon keg batches. The juice was pressed 6-8 months ago. Most of them were kegged within a month or two after pressing, These bottles were poured off when the kegs ran out, which was 2-5 months ago, depending on the batch. Carbonation was good on all bottles. None started a new fermentation or lost fermentation, just a nice pop from the keg filling and bubbly till the last drop. They have all been sitting in closed cartons in my basement since bottling. The basement is cool and has dehumidifier but not AC. Temps usually swing from 70 to 80.

Here are the ciders with (scores – rated 1-10, with 10 highest) and [overall ranking] for top five

Stayman and Winesap apples, Pressed 10/30/08, sg 1.050, pH 3.7, ½ k meta added:
(6.56) – 3 lb Orange Blossom Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.006
(6.39) – 1 lb Turbinado ½ lb Dextrose, Nottingham ale yeast, Raspberries in secondary, fg 1.002
(6.47) – 1 lb Turbinado ½ lb Dextrose, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.006
(6.83) – 1 lb Turbinado ½ lb Dextrose, Wyeast 4184 meade yeast, fg 1.000

Stayman and Rome apples, Pressed 11/23/08, sg 1.064, pH 3.8, ½ k meta added (except wild batch):
[5] (7.40) – No sugar. Wild yeast, fg 1.014
(7.17) – 2lb Clover Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.010
(7.14) – 2lb Wildflower Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.010
[1] (8.51) – No sugar. S04 ale yeast, fg 1.010
(6.88) – No sugar. US05 ale yeast, fg 1.004

York and Fuji apples, Pressed 1/5/09, sg 1.050, pH 3.9, no k meta:
(5.21) – 1 ½ lb Basswood and 1 ½ lb Clover honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.002
[3] (7.66) – 1 lb Turbinado ½ lb Dextrose, Wyeast 3068 Weizen Yeast, fg 1.020
(6.45) – 3 lb Wildflower Honey, US05 ale yeast, fg 1.006
[4] (7.60) – 3 lb White Sage Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.008
[2] (7.71) – 1 lb Turbinado ½ lb Dextrose, US05 ale yeast, fg 1.004

My personal top five is almost identical to the consensus ratings. I would have put the Stayman/Rome, Wildflower Honey, S04 in the 3 spot instead of the 3068. The drier ciders didn’t score very well on the average, but a few people liked these a lot. It also seems that these are still improving. The Stayman/Winesap 4184 batch seemed to be the favorite of the dry cider drinkers.

The breakdown of the ratings seems to confirm the three keg rule – something dry, something sweet and something in the middle and almost everyone can find at least one or two ciders that they’d rate 8 or higher. On average, only one batch broke 8 overall (even the popular batches that had lots of 9s got low ratings from folks who liked a different style).

All the honey I used for these cysers was from Northern brewer, White Sage and Wildflower Honey worked the best overall with the apple taste. I’d use Orange Blossom again also, even thought it didn’t score as well as clover honey. The basswood batch came out really dry, I liked it better in a sweeter cider.



The Stayman/Rome batches were all cloudy when I kegged them. After they sat in the basement a few months, all batches besides the wild yeast one cleared – sort of. You can see from the pic, the first, third and sixth bottles in the front row have varying amounts of sediment in the bottom of the bottles. The sediment had the consistency of runny applesauce and was actually pretty tasty – every drop was consumed. The wild batch is the third from the right. As you can see it was still a little cloudy All of the Stayman/Rome batches looked like this when I bottled them. I’m not sure what it was that finally caused them to clear. Even though these were all really tasty, I probably wont try to save cloudy batches for summertime consumption again.

I still have one more tasting to do in August. Eight batches that I havent tasted yet, plus eleven more that are repeats. I’m starting to check out my options for juice next season. The cider mills don’t start up until mid September, but good early juice apples will be available soon. I have a friend who has a good manual apple press and I’m hoping to press a few carboy’s worth in a few weeks, just to have something in the pipeline until the big presses start up.

When I saw the thread title I thought 'ok, hooch maker here. Will we be comparing koolaid flavors here and getting recommendations on which bread yeast to use?'

Could not have been more wrong. Knew that as soon as I saw the picture.

Thanks for the info.

Hooch is my roots! - starting about a dozen, maybe fifteen years ago when a friend rented a house on a farm with a bunch of untended apple trees and a crappy hand press in the garage. We used champagne yeast and sometimes added honey. It almost always got too dry and we would backsweeten with fresh juice. There were a few lucky batches that just happened to be at the right point of fermentation at the time of a party. Mostly it was pretty hoochie tasting, but high enough alcohol content and low enough drinking standards on my part made it all work out. Thankfully, several years ago, a friend turned me on to ale yeast, which transformed the cider from a cheap fun buzz to something that my friends and I actually enjoy drinking.

Just recently I’ve been learning more about the role of nitrogen in fermentation. I think that one reason I’ve had pretty good success stopping fermentation with cold crashing and racking may be that I've never added nutrient (which is mostly nitrogen) to the cider.

It appears that while low nitrogen levels can cause some problems, overall low nitrogen makes the yeast easier to control and could be a possible avenue for home brewers to bottle carbonate sweet cider. Check out this link on the UK cider page, particularly the last few paragraphs: Nitrogen - the Forgotten Element in Cider Making

Also thanks to Elfmaze for this link to this podcast, JKS Cidermaking Podcast where Jim Koan, owner of JK Scrumpy’s who talks about the importance of limiting nitrogen in the cider making process (the interview starts at minute 3)

These two links help explain something I observed over the last few seasons - if I added enough sugar to bump the sg to 1.060 and used ale yeast or 3068 I could often get a batch of cider to stop fermenting just by racking once or twice. I originally thought perhaps the higher sg from the extra sugar made the yeast drop to the bottom where it could be siphoned off. Now I think there is a good chance that taking the cider off the lees also deprived it of nitrogen, which was a major contributing factor in causing the ferment to stop – basically inducing a stuck fermentation.

Nitrogen levels may also help explain a question from the tasting before last - why the Stayman/Rome wild yeast batch, which was cold crashed at 1.014, was still stable 8 months later, while the Stayman/Winesap wild yeast batches, cold crashed at 1.002, had started refermenting.

The difference is probably in the racking. After cold crashing the Stayman/Rome batch at 1.014, the sg stayed stable, but I racked the carboy two more times and cold crashed it a second time, trying to get it to clear. It never got very clear – but it did drop some sediment on each racking, which was probably nutrient as well as yeast. In contrast, the Stayman/Winsap batches were nice and clear after cold crashing, so these went straight into bottles from the cold crash. So they were really only racked once and may have retained more nitrogen. Usually I rack back into a secondary after the cold crash to make sure it is stable. This extra racking step also probably helps the yeast and nutrient reduction.

If one could reliably induce a stuck fermentation by removing and/or depleting the nitrogen in the cider, then it should be possible to bottle carbonate by using a champagne yeast that can survive just long enough in a low nitrogen environment to add a few psi of pressure. It appears that this may be what some of the French and British cider makers do and it would not surprise me if JKS does this also. It would take a bit of experimenting to figure out exactly when to add the champagne yeast so that there is enough nitrogen to get a little fiz, but not enough to crack a bottle.

I never understood the point of keeving apple juice before, but it makes sense if you are trying to purposely achieve a stuck fermentation. It seems to me that you can probably achieve something pretty close for a lot less work by purchasing organic (meaning no nitrogen fertilizer applied to trees) apple juice.

Sometimes the cider does get a bit of a sulfer smell after cold crashing and/or racking. Some of this may be due to nutrient depletion. Usually the smell dissipates in a month or two in the keg. If not, charging the cider with CO2 and then letting the pressure back out can scrub out most sulfur smells. That is another handy thing about having kegs for conditioning. I suppose if you wanted to bottle condition, then you would need a yeast and juice combo that does not get stinky when the nitrogen runs out.

It appears that the only way to cheaply measure nitrogen is with formal titration, which looks like a PIA to do. I’m not ready to make that leap yet, but I’ll do what I can to find out about how much fertilizer was on various batches of apples in the upcoming year and maybe try to find an all organic batch next season to see how that compares with other juice.

In the meantime, I would advise anyone who wants to cold crash, rack and/or otherwise make a sweet cider by stopping fermentation, that you probably don’t want to use extra nutrients, or else limit the amount you use. If you want to ferment completely to dryness then the nutrient could be helpful, but for sweet ciders, it is probably working against you, plus is one less thing to purchase.

CvilleKevin - Just thanks man, just thanks. Loads of great information here. I've been doing some 1 gallon experimental batches trying different yeast and sugar additions, nowhere near as planned and methodical as your testing, more like shooting in the dark. I've had mixed results, but have decided I really like cider and enjoy making it. The information in this thread, while still trying to absorb all of it, puts me years ahead of where I'd be based on my random experiments. Thanks so much for sharing.

Thanks for all the info Kevin... it has gotten me excited for this pressing season.

My question for you is simple:

How little k meta have you been able to use to stop initial (wild) fermentation?
I know this will vary based on several things...

A little background:
I will be using a mix of Jonathan and Golden Del. apples pressed late Oct.

I need to transport the unpasteurized juice back home.. a 4 hour trip. I want to produce a consistent cider (if possible), so I want to eliminate wild yeast fermentation with the k meta. I will then use the S04 ale yeast.

Also... One other option I have is to freeze the fresh pressed sweet cider b/f pasteurization. Have you thought about this to give yourself a yearround supply of sweet cider for production?

Depending on the pH of the juice, it should take between 1/16 tsp to 1/8 tsp of k-meta to knock out the wild yeast in 5 gal of fresh juice (1/4 to ½ of the recommend dose used for grape juice). That’s assuming the press uses good sanitation, good quality control on the apples, etc. If the mix is mostly Jonathan (tart, low pH) , it will be closer to 1/16 tsp, if mostly golden delicious (sweet, high pH), more like 1/8 tsp.

You could also do it by taste, setting aside a glass of the fresh juice before you add anything. Then add a little bit at a time until you can taste the difference between what is in the carboy and the untreated juice. Once you can taste a slight difference, don’t add any more.

If you pick up more than one carboy of juice, you might want to experiment with different amounts of k-meta to see what you like. Even if you use no k-meta, the S04 will overwhelm the wild yeast fairly quickly and dominate the flavor profile, so it will be pretty consistent, even though you will get some character from the wild yeast. From the tastings I’ve done, most of my brewer, winemaking and beer/wine aficionado friends like having a bit of the wild character. Most everyone else (which is the majority) prefers about a half dose of k-meta, which is enough to kill the wild yeast, plus give it a little k-meta tang at the finish.

I havent tried freezing. I don’t have the space. I’ve accidentally partially frozen a couple of batches while cold crashing, which didn’t seem to hurt it. If I had a chest freezer, I’d rather use it for slowing down the ferment on the first few batches of the season and lagering later batches. I suspect that freezing before fermentation would affect the taste. That is based on the fact that JK Scrumpy’s has built a sophisticated cold storage facility for their apples, so that they can press fresh all year round. It would be a lot easier to just press and freeze all at once, and I dont imagine they would go to the trouble and expense of cold storage unless there was a noticeable taste advantage from fresh pressed over frozen. On the other hand, it could be that freezing just kills the wild yeast, in which case this might not matter to you.

A few weekends ago we finished off another 16 liters from last season - which is about all I had on hand that was drinkable. Seventeen friends were good enough to share their feedback and rate the ciders.

On average I would say these were not quite as good as the ones from the previous tasting, but there were a few really good ones. Here are the ciders with (scores – rated 1-10, with 10 highest) and [overall ranking] for top five

The first eight ciders were all from the same pressing, which was Staymans, Empire, Golden Delicious and Granny Smith, pressed on 10/9/08. Sg was 1.042 and I didn’t check the pH on these. These got a full dose of k-meta. Four of the liters were from keg batches.
(5.78) – 1½ lb Turbinado ¾ lb Dextrose, US05 ale yeast, fg. 1.008
[3] (7.95) Basswood Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.010
(6.91) – 1½ lb Turbinado ¾ lb Dextrose, S23 lager yeast, fg 1.002
(6.83) – 1½ lb Turbinado ¾ lb Dextrose, Nottingham ale yeast, fg. 1.008

The basswood honey was a little strong for the first several months, but has mellowed really nicely. I thought the S23 should have got a higher score. I would have put it in the top 5. For a dry cider it had a lot of flavor, and a few people really liked it, but overall dry ciders don’t get much love

The other four liters were from experimental gallon batches, to check out some different yeasts. These yeasts all fermented very fast and came out really dry, without much flavor. Aging didn’t seem to improve them much and none scored very well:
(5.41) – 4oz Turbinado 2oz Dextrose, Breferm lager yeast, fg 1.004
(5.65) – 4oz Turbinado 2oz Dextrose, Lalvin 71B wine yeast, fg 1.000
(6.03) – 4oz Turbinado 2oz Dextrose, Coopers ale yeast, fg 1.004
(4.06) – 4oz Turbinado 2oz Dextrose, Danstar Munich wheat beer yeast, fg 1.002

The last eight ciders were all repeats from previous tastings. Some have improved, others have peaked

Stayman and Winesap apples, Pressed 10/30/08, sg 1.050, pH 3.7, ½ k meta added, all from keg batches. All still improving:
[5] (7.69) – 3 lb Orange Blossom Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.006
(7.24) – 1 lb Turbinado ½ lb Dextrose, Nottingham ale yeast, Raspberries in secondary, fg 1.002
[1] (8.14) – 1 lb Turbinado ½ lb Dextrose, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.006

Stayman and Rome apples, Pressed 11/23/08. sg 1.064, pH 3.8, ½ k meta added. All still improving
[2] (8.12) – 2lb Clover Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.010
[4] (7.85) – 2lb Wildflower Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.010

York and Fuji apples, Pressed 1/5/09 sg 1.050, pH 3.9, no k meta:

3 lb Wildflower Honey, US05 ale yeast, fg 1.006
3 lb White Sage Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.008
1 lb Turbinado ½ lb Dextrose, US05 ale yeast, fg 1.004

The York/Fuji batches have definitely peaked and have picked up just a tad of a vinegar taste. We didn’t get around to scoring them as it was getting late by the time we tasted these and there were just a handful of folks left. The one with the white sage honey was the only one that was still fairly drinkable, but still not as good as last month (when two of these were in the top five). These tasted great up through mid July, so six months seems like the limit of how long they will keep with no k-meta.

I still have the five kegs of Jonathan juice that I let go all the way dry at the beginning of last season. These are just now starting to get drinkable. “Sippable” is probably a better word. They sorta work as a dry white wine with a nice finish, and I know a few folks who I think will really like these, but I doubt they would get much interest if I tapped them at a party. We’ll see I guess. Hopefully they continue to improve.

The last two carboys of York/Fuji are finally clearing, but unfortunately also picking up a bit of vinegar taste. The S23 batch has a great apple finish which is almost worth putting up with the initial taste. The wild yeast batch tastes kinda boring, so I’ll probably give it to a friend to make vinegar. I’ll try to sweeten up the S23 batch first, but will probably give that one away as well

Monday I’m picking up the first juice of the 2009 season, which looks like its going to be a mix of Galas and Cortlands (hopefully with some Jonathans if the press gets some over the weekend). I’m planning on picking up 60 gallons and doing 7 keg batches (current 7 favorites, more or less in order):

S04 with no sugar
S04 and wildflower honey
US05 with turbinado/dextose
Wild yeast
S23 with turbinado/dextose
3068 with turbinado/dextose
4184 with turbinado/dextose

I’m planning to let the 4184 go all the way dry and keep it till next year. The rest I’m planning cold crash and tap as soon as drinkable.

For all of these, I’m not going to add k-meta prior to pitching yeast, I’m planning on adding 1/3 dose to the 4184 after fermentation for storage and might add some to others if it looks like I might save them for a while.

The rest of the juice I’m going use for single gallon batches. After reading all of the graff posts, I’m looking forward to experimenting with some DME, so I’m planning to do a 3 x 5 experiment with three types of DME, (light, dark and wheat) with five yeasts (Nottingham, S23, SO4, 3068 and US05). I’m planning to use enough DME to bump the sg to 1.060 or 1.065 (depending on what I’m starting with) and let them all ferment out without cold crashing, to see what sort of residual sugar I get with the DME.

I also have a few more dry yeasts I want to check out (RHST, Safale K-97, Enoferm AMH Assmannhausen, Vintner's Harvest MA33 and Safbrew T-58). Later in the season, I’ll be checking out some more liquid yeasts

First Juice of the season!



I picked up 60 gallons from the press this morning. It’s a mix of Cortland, McIntosh, Gala and Jonathan. Sg was 1.050, pH 3.7. Great smell, the taste starts appley and finishes tart. Could use a little more body in the middle, but for the first juice of the season, I’m happy.

I decided to hold off on checking out the five new dry yeasts, and do a second keg of S04 with no sugar instead. I don’t want to bite off more than I can chew with too many experimental batches this early in the season. I’m hoping the 15 DME gallon batches will ferment out with some residual sugar so I don’t have to cold crash them – otherwise I’m going to have my hands full in about a week. I ended up putting 6oz of DME in each gallon. I just mixed it straight into the juice like I was adding sugar. The wheat DME was a little clumpy at first, but after sitting about an hour, it dissolved pretty well. I’ve never used malt before. The stuff smells great. The dust from it gets everywhere tho.

The S04 batches were fermenting with airlock activity within 4 hours after pitching the yeast. The US05 was next with airlock activity after 5 hours. The 3068, S23 and 4184 kicked in about an hour later. The only thing not fermenting now is the wild yeast batch. Those usually take a few days to start. Temps in the basement are still a little too warm – around 72, although temps are supposed to drop to 60 tonite. Tomorrow, I’m going to move the desk and put an AC unit in the window to see if I can keep the daytime temp to 65.

That's awesome. If you don't mind me asking, what do you pay per gallon of cider? I went to the closest orchard here a few weeks ago and they wanted $9 per gallon. My parents live in upstate NY where apple growing is/was one of the main industries and I think Cider there is between $4 and $5/gallon.
I'm assuming from your handle that you live in Charlottesville. I'll be up visiting my brother there sometime this fall and I was also wondering where you get your cider and if there's anyone at the mill I can talk to if I do go up there.

Thanks,
Brad

Carboys and growlers and airlocks, oh, my!!

YEAH KEVIN! Looks awesome. I am excited about DME cider... just picked some up this w/e, and I hope to set something sometime this week.

Hey, are you going to the cider workshop this w/e?

Brad - $5 bucks for a single gallon is about right for retail. I've been paying 2.85/gal for minimum 30 gallon pickup. I've paid as little as $2 for minimum 25 gallons, but that was before the State started requiring pasteurization for retail sales. Upstate NY or any place with a large apple industry will likely be cheaper. Where are you located?

When you call around to orchards, ask them if they have their own press. A lot of them dont - they get someone else to press the juice, and store it in a fridge, so they are less likely to cut you a break because they have already paid for packaging, distribution and storage. If they dont have a press, ask them where they get their apples pressed. When you find a place with a press, ask them what is their price for bulk juice. Usually there is a 25-50 gallon minimum before it drops to less than $3/gal, but a lot of places will knock a buck or two off the price per gallon if you bring a carboy and get 5-6 gallons or more at a time. It usually helps to let them know that you are making hard cider.

The website All About Apples has a pretty good listing of orchards in each state.
All About Apples | Apple Orchard and Farm listings

The place I get most of my juice from is Showalters Orchard which is in Timberville (near Harrisonburg, a little more than an hours drive from Cville.). If you are coming up from the South, there are some other mills in Southwest VA which are probably closer. I'll be getting more juice about once a month, through the end of the year. If you are in Charlottesville next time I go to Showalters, I'd be happy to pick up an extra carboy or two. I dont know how much flexibility you have visiting your bro, but the press runs on Monday and Thursday. Staymans should be ripening in about a month, and I'll be making another trip as soon as those are available. Also, there is an orchard just south of Cville - Vintage Virginia - that has great cider apples. Their juice retails for $10 gal, but is very good. Depending on how their harvest goes, I may be able to get with some of the other local homebrewers later this Fall and put together a big enough buy to get some of their juice at a decent rate, but that is still TBD. If you dont find a reasonable price local source, PM me when you are getting close to visiting your brother and I'll try to hook you up while you are here

Hey Marc - I didnt know there was a workshop this weekend. I went to one last weekend at the Heritage Harvest Festival. Great apples and juice blends. Unfortunately the presenter didnt know of anyone who is selling them. I dont have the patience to plant an orchard.

Three Day Update



Three days in and all of the yeasty boys are chugging along. The wild yeast batch started airlock activity after about 24 hours, which is a little early for a wild batch, but it has been going nice and slow which is a good sign. Its the carboy on the back shelf which is still close to the original color.

I was able to get the temp down to 68 with the AC. Not as low as I hoped, but we had a string of days where it hit 90 outside, so I'm glad I moved it to the basement. Now its cool again, so no longer needed, but I'll keep it in place until Oct, just in case it warms up again

I had to put blowoff tubes on all of the 3068 and US05 DME batches. I should have expected that for the 3068, but usually US05 is pretty mild mannered. I ended up adding honey instead of sugar to the 4184 carboy, and that one needed a blowoff tube also. I had to change the water in the 3068 blowoff glasses several times because foam would come through the tube, collect on the top and start to reach the top of the glass. I've found for the 3068 keg batches that it is good to use a deep blowoff container - that way there is more pressure from the water column, which helps keep the foam in the carboy. In retrospect, I should have used something deeper than these pint glasses for the 3068 DME blowoffs because I lost about a cup of juice from each jug from the foam escaping. Hopefully I'll still have enough to fill three liters after racking.

Between not adding any k-meta and the DME batches, the basement smells great! Usually, 2-3 days into a new ferment, the basement is really stanky, but this batch is really quite pleasant.

Kevin, thanks for starting this thread and posting all of this great information! I am very new to this and without this thread I would be lost. I do have a few questions I was hoping to have answered before I get started.

1. Can I add the K meta and then pitch the yeast right after, or should I wait 12-24 hours after?

2. I purchased EC-1118 dry yeast based on some prior reading I have done. I have two 5gram packs. Should I only being using one of these per 5 gal batch? (I bought it before reading this. I will being trying some of the other yeasts mentioned here for my next batch)

3. I do not have a keg system and I plan on cold crashing the cider. I would, however, like to have carbonation in the bottle. If I understand this correctly, this is not possible. Do I have any other options for this? Priming sugar will not work when I bottle?

I was going to do this today, so any pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Scott...

Scott,

1. If you add k-meta, wait 24 hours before pitching the yeast. You dont need k-meta unless the juice is unpasteurized. If the juice is fresh and the press looks like they run a clean operation, I'd recommend skipping the k-meta and pitch the yeast now. If any doubts, use no more than half the recommended dose of k-meta and pitch the yeast tomorrow.

2. You only need one pack. Pitch 1/3 of it at a time, wait for it to sink and then pitch a little more until it is gone. When the last bit sinks, give the carboy a shake to distribute the yeast before putting the airlock on.

3. The point of cold crashing is to get the yeast out of your cider, so if you are successful, you wont be able to get a bottle ferment.

Bottle carb is tough. You have a couple of options. In either case you dont want to cold crash: You can let the cider ferment all the way dry and then use priming sugar. That will give you a very dry, but sparkling cider.

If you have fridge space and dont mind taking a few risks, you could bottle as soon as you have just a little more than the final level of sweetness you want. Let them sit at room temp for a couple of days and then start drinking one a day. When they get to the level of carb you want, put them all in the fridge and keep them cold. You run a few risks here tho - if the yeast is not evenly distributed in each bottle, you might end up blowing one before you get them all in the fridge. And if a housemate or SWMBO decides to make space in the fridge by putting your ciders somewhere else, that could be bad news.

I'm pretty sure that it would be possible to bottle ferment a sweet cider by nitrogen deprivation - using a yeast such as 3068 that uses a lot of nitrogen and purposely inducing a stuck fermentation, followed by a secondary fermentation with a yeast like EC-1118, that is tolerant (but not too tolerant) of low nitrogen. That would take some time to work out tho.

Thanks for the quick reply Kevin. The facility I purchased the cider from was small and very clean. It was from Tandem Ciders in Sutton's Bay, Mi and he had just pressed the apples the day before we got there(9\17). Unpasteurized as well. I think I may just pitch the yeast tomorrow and see how it goes.

As far as the carbonation goes, I would rather not add sugar at the end. I want the full flavor from the apples. I am thinking I will just go get a corny keg with the fixin's necc to fill the bottles and cork them. I do not have the fridge space or a kegerator to keep it in. Will this work if I just use the corny keg to fill the bottles and cork them?

Thanks, Scott...

That'll work. Once you put it in the keg it will take about a week to get fully carbed. I like to use swing tops, because it is easy to snap the top on with one hand, right when they are full. If you are corking, it will help to have another set of hands so you dont lose any carb before the cork goes in. Also, I fill the bottles a little higher than normal because the CO2 will come back out of the cider until enough pressure builds up in the top of the bottle to keep any more from coming out. I leave about a half inch, just in case a get a re-ferment, but I've never had a problem filling from kegs so far.

Sounds good. Do I need to have the keg in the fridge for that week or is it OK to leave out once the cider is in the keg? Do the bottles need to stay in the fridge after corking? Sorry about all questions.

Sincerely, The New guy.

The cider will carbonate faster if it is cold but you can do it at room temp. It takes about a week at room temp and a few days in the fridge. Just leave the gas on, with the regulator set to about 25psi.

The bottles should also be fine at room temp - however, I have to warn you that back when I was using champagne yeast, we used to drink it all within a few weeks of crashing, so I cant say for sure how long the EC1118 will stay stable. You might want to keep the 1118 batch in the keg and pull off bottles or growlers as needed, just to be safe. Used kegs are pretty cheap. I've saved lots of bottles that I pulled from kegs of ale yeast batches and kept them over six months at room temp with no problems.

so Kevin, what is your all time favorite cider recipe. its gotta be hard to pick 1 out of all your experiments?

If I could make the same batch over and over, it would probably be Stayman and Winesap apples with S04 yeast and no sugar, crashed at about 1.008.

Whew! – the last couple of days have been crazy. Sunday after dinner (six days after pitching the yeast), I checked the sg’s of the ciders. They were a lot further along than I expected. I’ve been keeping the basement at 68-72, which is about normal for this time of year, and usually the first batches of the year go around 8-9 days before they need to be crashed.

The two S04 keg batches with no sugar were already at 1.004, and a little more tart than what I wanted.
The S23 batch with dextrose/turbinado was at 1.010 – nice and smooth, ready to crash
The US05 batch with dextrose/turbinado was at 1.012 – also very tasty and ready to crash
The S04 wildflower honey batch was at 1.018 and still a little sweet
The 4184 white sage honey batch was at 1.020 and still a little sweet
The wild yeast batch was at 1.020 and tasted pretty good, but was fermenting like crazy
The 3068 batch with dextrose/turbinado was still at 1.044

I only had room in the fridge for one carboy, so I crashed one of the S04 batches and racked the other one to slow the ferment down. Then I started checking the DME batches

Most of the DME batches had already fermented out too far and were fairly sour and raw tasting, although the finish was decent. The S23, Nottingham and S04 batches were mostly at 1.004, with a few at 1.006. These didn’t taste nearly as good as the S04 keg batches that were also at 1.004. The US05 batches were at 1.010 – 1.012 and tasted a little better, but again not nearly as good as the US05 keg batch with the same sg. The 3068 batches were still at 1.036 – 1.040 and tasted pretty good

All the DME batches smelled great, even though the taste wasn’t all that. Generally the wheat malt batches were a little smoother than the light malt. The dark malt tasted maltier – more like what I was expecting.

There was still a lot of airlock activity on all the DME batches and it was pretty clear that they werent going to have a lot of residual sugar if left to ferment out on their own, so I stayed up all night and crashed 12 of them (all but the 3068 batches)

*********

Monday after work I racked the crashed S04 batch back into its original carboy and checked the keg batches again, which were as follows

The S04 batch that I racked had moved a little below 1.004, but thankfully not much
The S23 batch dropped 4 points to 1.006, still tasting pretty good.
The US05 batch dropped 2 points to 1.010, still tasting pretty good
The S04 wildflower honey batch dropped 4 points to 1.014, now tasting very drinkable
The 4184 white sage honey batch was still holding at 1.020 and still a little sweet
The wild yeast batch had dropped a whopping 10 points to 1.010 and tasting a little thin
I didn’t bother checking the 3068 batch this time

Since the wild yeast batch seemed to be the most risk of going really bad, I crashed that one. I also racked all of the other batches except for the 3068 and 4184, to get them off the yeast cakes and slow down the ferments until I have time to crash them over the next few days.

I tried a few of the DME batches that have been in the fridge for a day. They were a little better, but still pretty raw tasting. The light malt and wheat malt batches are clearing nicely, but the dark malt batches don’t seem to be dropping any sediment. At this point, it seems pretty clear that the DME wont leave enough residual sugar to skip the cold crashing step. I bumped the cider 15 points with the malt (from 1.050 to 1.065) so maybe if I had gone really high on the sg I would have had some more residual sugar. I’ll give them a few more days and then try to decide if any of them are worth bottling or whether I should just give them to a friend for vinegar stock, so they don’t count against my production limit for this year.

There have been a fair number of questions about cold crashing, so here are a few pics that hopefully will make it easier for folks to see what is going on:

The picture below is of four carboys, seven days after pitching yeast. After six days, they all looked like the two carboys on the right – very light in color, completely opaque and with active ferments going on.

At six days, I cold crashed the carboy on the left, racking it into the jug you see and putting it in the fridge. The carboy next to it was just racked, not cold crashed. The pic was taken just after I took the crashed jug out of the fridge. It had been in the fridge about 20 hours.



The jug that was crashed is very clear (a little hard to see because of the condensation) and has a nice compact layer of sediment on the bottom. The carboy next to it, which was racked at the same time but not crashed has also cleared a little bit, but not nearly as much. The ferment has slowed down, resulting in the juice coming back to its natural color, but again not as much.

Below is a picture after the crashed carboy was racked back into its original container, giving you a more “apples to apples” comparison between the four carboys.



The crashed carboy is now stable. Because I only left it in the fridge for 20 hours, it will continue to drop some sediment for probably another week. At that point, I’ll either rack it to a keg or to a five gallon carboy. Ideally, I would have left it in the fridge for 2-3 days to get it completely clear, but I have a backlog of kegs that need to be crashed. Maybe one of these days I’ll get a chest freezer, but doing them sequentially usually works pretty well (as long as I don’t wait too long to check them, like I did this time).

Also, on the table you’ll see a little tool I made with a CO2 keg charger and a 4 inch pipe nipple. After I rack a carboy and have some headspace like you see here, I’ll give the top a little blast of CO2 to push the air out and fill the headspace with CO2, so I don’t get any oxidation or contamination from the air. You can still see a little CO2 mist on the top of the carboy on the left. One CO2 cartridge is enough for about 5-6 carboys.

Ale yeast batches almost always end up brilliantly clear (last year I had a batch with Staymans and Romes that didn’t clear but that seems to be the exception). The ones fermented with honey clear even faster. Wild yeast fermented batches usually don’t get as clear though. Not sure why.

Fantastic information!

I'm going to start my first batch of cider tonight and am looking forward to it. I'm planning to pitch 3 packs of Notty on 10 gallons in a Sankey and purge with CO2. I am also planning on adding several pounds of brown sugar to reach at least 1.060.

Two quick questions.

Do you boil the sugar in water to sterilize before adding or do you add the sugar directly into the fermentor?

Do you typically rehydrate your dry yeast/Notty before pitching?

EDIT: Not sure if it matters, but I am using UV pasteurized cider.

Thanks in advance!

I dont boil the sugar - I just pour it in the top, put a solid bung in, and roll the carboy around on the floor until all the sugar is dissolved. That might be harder to see if you are using a Sankey. It usually takes about 15 minutes for the sugar to dissolve completely, although I'm usually doing 5-8 carboys at a time, so I'm not rolling them all at once. If you cant see it, roll it for a bit, do something else, roll it a bit again, etc for about 15 min and you should be good. Same thing for honey. Warming honey up a bit in a hot water bath will help it pour better, but it still takes some time to fully dissolve.

Brown sugar ferments out a little too caramel for my taste, but that is a matter of taste.

(yeast rehydration comes up a lot in other posts, so sorry for the long answer below)

I pitch the yeast directly on the cider a third of a packet at a time, so that the yeast have a nice smooth re-hydration. Sprinkle it lightly so that they spread out evenly over the surface and form a film of single cells - you dont want any little piles of yeast on top of the cider. You can lightly tap the carboy on the side to encourage the yeast to spread out to make a nice even film while they are rehydrating. Then when the first round sinks, add some more. I keep a solid stopper in the carboy when I am doing this (other than taking it off briefly to add a little more yeast) and also fold the top of the yeast packet over and put a paper clip on it between pitchings to keep everything as sterile as possible during this period. For a fermentation bucket, where there is more surface area than a carboy, you might be able to get the yeast to spread out enough to get an even film all across the top with a single pitch, but I would probably do at least two pitchings just to be safe.

If you are using a Sankey keg I'm not sure how well you will be able to see what the yeast is doing, so it might be easier to make a starter. Using a starter is generally considered to be best practice, although I havent found it to be necessary. Since I usually do a lot of batches at a time, I try to avoid steps that are not absolutely needed. I've done a few hundred batches this way and never had one that didnt start strong. I usually get ferments starting in 6-8 hours, always by 24 hours.

You also may want to make a starter if you are pitching into cold cider. When I get the cider home I first take it to the kitchen to measure sg, pH, add sugar, etc. That room gets a lot of sun so by the time I pitch the yeast, the cider is at about 75F, which the yeast seem to like. After the last pitch of yeast sinks, I give the carboy a good shake to mix it all up. Then I move it to the basement so that it will be cooler for the ferment, puff a little CO2 on the top and add the airlock.

UV pasteurized is fine, it just finished a little cloudy. Personally, I'd rather drink it cloudy that add anything to clear it, although that is your call. Using honey to boost the sg usually does cause pasteurized to clear during the cold crash. Not sure why this is.

CvilleKevin

Thank you very much for your timely response and depth of information. I'm sure looking forward to trying something new. I think in light of pitching into the Sankey and only doing a single batch at the moment I will rehydrate the yeast in some boiled (Cooled to 100F) water before pitching.

Thanks again.

Damn, it is good to have cider on tap again!

Last night I kegged the S04 Wildflower Honey batch and left it on gas in the fridge so that I could pour a decently carbed liter off for SWMBO to share with some friends this afternoon. It could still use another day of carb, but it tastes very very nice. life is good.

Just about all of the September 14th pressing is stable now and either clearing in secondaries, or about to go into kegs. Over all, the Cortland/McIntosh/Gala/Jonathan juice mix did great. This is the best round of batches I have ever done this early in the season. Five of the eight are highly drinkable now, less than two weeks after the pressing. There is a little more citrus taste in these batches than other, probably because these are early harvest apples. This batch was a little more work than usual because they fermented a couple days faster than I expected. Also the natural ferment crash had problems which forced me to repeatedly rack the others to slow them down. But now its all good.



The keg batches, from left to right across the back are:

(in fridge) S04 and wildflower honey – I racked this one three times on 9/21, 9/23 and 9/24 to slow the ferment down. The three rackings were nearly enough to stop it completely. I cold crashed it on 9/26, which stopped it dead at 1.010, Great smell, taste, & mouthfeel. The honey comes through but doesnt overpower the apple taste.

3068 with turbinado/dextose - This is SWMBO’s favorite batch. She had creative control on this one. I crashed it on 9/29 at 1.026, which does not taste nearly as sweet as you would think because the citric acid is so prominent. Its more of a mango/orange/apple juice sort of taste. This could go right in the keg now, but I’ll let it sit for a few more days and maybe rack it to a secondary to let it clear some more

Natural ferment – This tastes pretty crappy and it is my own fault. It got off to a slow start, then started fermenting like crazy. I cold crashed it on 9/21 at 1.010, thinking that this might be my best natural fermented batch yet. Then it got cold, the temps in my basement dropped, and the carboy froze halfway solid during the crash because the temp control on my fridge sucks. In retrospect, I should have just racked it anyway and left the ice behind with the lees, but I tried to let it thaw instead. When it finally thawed, I was at work and it took off fermenting again, and dropped another 8 points in less than 12 hours to 1.002. I crashed it again, but this time it took 3 days for it to clear, causing everything else that needed crashing to get delayed. Now its pretty flavorless, but tastes OK mixed with some of the 3068 batch.

S04 with no sugar (2) – crashed on 9/20 at 1.004. Racked to secondary on 9/26. I’ll be kegging this one next. Its on the dry side but has loads of flavor. Nice and smooth. Its one of the few batches this dry that I would go back for another glass rather than going for something a little sweeter.

S04 with no sugar (1) – this one I racked three times instead of cold crashing. The third racking stopped it dead at 1.002, a little drier than its brother batch. I’m planning to add some raspberries to this one and let it go a little longer.

4184 with turbinado/dextose – this one got a little further than I wanted before crashing on 9/27 at 1.004. Crashing cleared it nicely, but this yeast is pretty resilient to crashing and its continued to drop another 2 points since then, Flavor is good though. I figured from the getgo that this one would probably ferment all the way out and not get drinkable till next summer. That seems to be where it is headed.

S23 with turbinado/dextose – this is another great dry batch. Racked on 9/21, 9/22 and 9/23 to slow it down before finally crashing at 1.004 on 10/2. Its crisp and fruity, with great apple taste and good balance, could maybe stand less citrus. This one could also easily go into a keg right away, but I want to keep an eye on it for a while and make sure it stays stable before kegging it.

US05 with turbinado/dextose – this one is my favorite of this batch so far. Racked on 10/21, crashed on 10/22 and racked to secondary on 10/26. Very quaffable. I’ll get this one in a keg soon as well

The DME batches were mostly underwhelming. They all smell great, and I might do a little experimenting to see how little DME I can use to get that smell. The citric acid is much more prominent with these than with the keg batches. I crashed all of them except for the 3068 batches on 9/20 and they are all stable. They have mellowed a bit, but still not great. It tastes like a lot of the apple sugar fermented away leaving some malt sugar taste behind which is drinkable, but doesn’t really stand up to the keg batches.

I racked the 3068 DME batches on 9/29 to see if I could stop them just with a racking (at the urging of SWMBO) who liked the taste of these. The light malt batch was at 1.032, Wheat malt was 1.032 and Dark malt was 1.026. The light malt batch stopped dead in its tracks, the others have dropped a couple of points since then. These all taste pretty good, or at least interesting.

Of the others, the US05 batches taste the best. They have all got a little more mellow since crashing, but I cant see how these are going to be really good anytime soon. If they continue to improve by the time I get new juice next week, I’ll probably dump them all into a few kegs and let them continue to age, or else they might become vinegar stock.

This post is full of so much valuable information. I finally, after meaning to do it for 2 years got a batch of cider going thanks to this post. Great information. A few questions for you though. last year you were saying that nottingham is one of your favorite yeasts but you don't seem to be using it much this year. Any reason for that? your dme experiments don't seem to have gone to well. Do you plan on tinkering with this anymore? I'm thinking LME might have a better effect, reminds me more of honey than DME. Anyone else on board with me on this? or am I missing something? It could just be that the flavor profile of the apples is just too delicate to handle something like malt altogether. Gives me a couple of pretty radical ideas, although I don't have the means (or space for that matter) to try it. Any all grain brewers out there fooling around with cider at all as well? honey nut brown cider anyone?

True, I havent been using Notty on the last few rounds of keg batches. Its a good all around cider yeast and I still like it a lot, although for specific styles there are others that I like better. S04 is a little better for cysers and fruity tasting ciders, US05 is better for something a little darker. S23 is a PIA to control, but makes a great dry cider if you can catch it right before it munches the last of the sugar. Brewers, wine makers and aficionados like the wild yeast batches (when I dont screw them up) and the Ladies Love 3068. Notty can cover all of these bases, but not as well as the other can individually, although in fairness to the Notty, I have it used it since eliminating the use of k-meta before the yeast pitch. All the batches I've made with other yeasts have improved since then, and since I still have a package of Notty in the fridge, I might use it for the next round.

Yeah, my DME experiments were pretty much of a bust, although they did make the basement smell great. I may tinker some more with it, but probably not for a while. I was mostly interested in whether it would ferment out on its own, without having to crash and still leave a decent amount of sugar behind. The answer to that is no. It tastes like all the apple sugar fermented off and left just the malt unfermentables. It might be that a later season juice mix, without so much citrus acid would have worked better, but I doubt it. I used the same juice and yeast combinations in the keg batches with sugar and honey and they are much smoother and more balanced.

Its possible that using DME is one application where it really is better to start with the bland store bought stuff, in which case you're really making something more like a Magic Hat #9, but with apples. That would probably taste pretty good but its not really what I'm going for. I want something with some terroir. I'm with you on using liquid instead of dried extract if I were to experiment with this again. I might try some pilsen syrup because my girlfriend likes pilsners.

I tell my friends who are brewers that making a really good keg of cider is comparable to all grain in terms of effort - except that all of the work comes after the yeast pitch instead of before (actually, its a bit of work to locate a source of good juice, but you only have to do that once or twice). That said, a honey nut brown cider sounds pretty good.

For the next round of experiments, I'm checking out six new wheat yeasts, plus Wyeast's pilsner Urquell (that is SWMBO's favorite beer right now), to see how these stack up against the 3068. So far, I've tried a couple of dry wheat yeasts which have been disappointing, but I'm hoping that some of these liquids will have the same properties of the 3068, namely:
1) SWMBO likes it a lot
2) Most women like it a lot, guys are OK with it, the keg almost always floats first at parties
3) Its easy to get the fermentation to stick at high SGs, just by racking. I'm pretty sure that this is because the 3068 consumes a lot of nitrogen and other nutrients, compared to other yeasts. If one wanted to do a bottle fermented sweet cider, one alternative to starting with juice that is low in nitrogen or keeved would be to use a yeast that will use up most of the nutrients, stick it, and then maybe use a ale or champagne yeast to bottle carb. For this season, I'm just trying to find some more decent tasting yeasts that I can reliably get to stick.
4) did I mention SWMBO likes it a lot?

Kevin,
Thanks for all this amazing information, wonderfully complete and well-written. I really appreciate your methodical brewing and tasting.

I'm <very> new to brewing and am brewing my first cider very soon. Like so many, I'm also looking for a semi-sweet, mildly-alcoholic cider with lots of apple flavor. I'm also on a budget, am using all my own fresh-pressed apple juice, and would really like to bottle carb. I'm starting to realize that until someone finds the right yeast, that might not be possible. But then I read a more recent post of yours-

CvilleKevin said:

3. The point of cold crashing is to get the yeast out of your cider, so if you are successful, you wont be able to get a bottle ferment.

Bottle carb is tough. You have a couple of options. In either case you dont want to cold crash: You can let the cider ferment all the way dry and then use priming sugar. That will give you a very dry, but sparkling cider.

If you have fridge space and dont mind taking a few risks, you could bottle as soon as you have just a little more than the final level of sweetness you want. Let them sit at room temp for a couple of days and then start drinking one a day. When they get to the level of carb you want, put them all in the fridge and keep them cold. You run a few risks here tho - if the yeast is not evenly distributed in each bottle, you might end up blowing one before you get them all in the fridge. And if a housemate or SWMBO decides to make space in the fridge by putting your ciders somewhere else, that could be bad news.

Click to expand...

That last part seems like a great plan to me. You covered the danger of those bottles being removed from the fridge- which I assume would allow the yeast to start fermenting the left over sugar and eventually blow the bottle. However, I am wondering-

Would it be possible to chill or heat the bottles to kill the yeast? This way, I wouldn't have to keep them cool indefinitely. I am thinking it would work just like a cold crash does in your larger vessels.

I was also curious, how exactly do you cold crash your cider? Is there minimum length of time, or temperature you aim for?

Thanks in advance,
Max

I'm not sure whether you could kill the yeast by freezing the bottles. It might, but my guess would be not. Heating them to pasteurization temps is more likely to kill the yeast, but I'm not sure what that would do to the taste. It probably wouldnt be any worse than fermenting it dry and adding some nonfermentable sugar.

You could try making a gallon, bottle a few and see if either method works. Just make sure the bottles are in a place that is easy to clean. Making a proper bottle of champagne is tricky business and you can be sure that the traditional cider houses burst plenty of bottles while working out their process, so make sure you are working in a space that is easy to clean when you experiment with new bottle carb methods.

Remember, you can always drink it still. Cider is a lot more like wine than cider and tastes perfectly good still. Its not like beer, which doesnt taste right if its not carbed.

When I cold crash, I rack to a sanitized carboy and then chill the carboy for at least 24 hours. Sometimes it takes 2-3 days, but the ale yeasts usually clear in 24 hours. Then rack back into the original carboy (after cleaning it) Dont try to get all of the juice on the 2nd rack because that is where the yeast is. I usually leave a pint behind, which you can always pour out and drink while you are cleaning the carboy you just emptied. During the crash I try to get it as cold as I can without freezing, which is a bit of a challenge because I have an old fridge and the inside temp drops a bit when the basement temps drop. One of these days I'll get a decent chest freezer with a good temp control.

Another option for cold crashing that a buddy of mine used last week is to sit the carboy in a keg bucket and ice it down for 24 hours. His cleared beautifully and no need to worry about accidentally freezing the cider or clearing enough space in the fridge. Only cost is a couple bucks for ice. I'll probably try this myself if I ever get into a situation where I need to crash more than one at a time again.

I just made another run to the orchard this morning. 104 gallons, which is a record haul for me. Six of the carboys are mine, the other eight are for friends



The juice is a mix of 50% Stayman, 25% York and 25% Empire. SG of 1.054 and pH of 3.9 - thats the highest PH of any juice I've got since I bought the meter last year. It tastes great. It doesnt start as sweet (even though higher sg) or finish quite as tart as the last batch, but it has much more flavor in the middle and a lot more mouthfeel

The six keg batches will be five that are the same as last time (except no sugar for the 3068) and a new Notty batch:

S04 with no sugar
S04 and wildflower honey
US05 with turbinado/dextose
3068 with no sugar
Wild yeast
Nottingham with turbinado/dextose

I also got another 21 singles so that I could do a 3x7 experiment with some different liquid yeasts - six wheat and one pilsner urquel. For each of the yeasts, I'll do one batch with no sugar, one with 6oz of turbinado/dextrose and one with ~7oz of wildflower honey. The yeasts are:

Wyeast 1010 American Wheat
Wyeast 3056 Bavarian Wheat Blend
Wyeast 3333 German Wheat
Wyeast 3638 Bavarian Wheat
Wyeast 3942 Belgian Wheat
Wyeast 2001 Pilsner Urquell
White Labs WLP380 Hefeweizen IV

So we'll see how easy these are for inducing a stuck fermentation and how SWMBO likes em, compared to the 3068. Hopefully the basement will stay nice and cool and crashing these will be easier than the last batch!

Approximately how much sugar and or honey are you adding to your 5 gal batches? About 2lb?

Any have you had any problems fermenting in just the gallon jugs? I just picked up 5 gallons and I am trying to decide if I should make a 5 gal batch or try what you are doing and make all 5 different.


Thanks for all the great info!

Ryan

2lbs sugar or 3lbs honey. If original SG is greater than 1.060, I'll dial it back a bit

I've never had any problems using gallons. They are easier to crash and you can toss them in the recycling bin when done. Plus if something comes out really wretched, its not so bad giving up just a gallon.

I highly recommend playing around with different yeasts, because juice is different everywhere and tastes are different - then when you find one that is really great for your juice you can scale it up.