Need help picking steel for a brew rig

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CidahMastah

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Hye all.

I found a local place that does small orders for precut steel stock and my thought was to request a quote for all precut steel square tubing so we would only have to assemble via welding.

I found this site:
http://www.murphynolan.com/

Only issue being that I don't know what exactly I should be looking for. I was considering 1x1 inch or 1x 1.5 inch square tubing for either a single tier build or possibly a 2 tier build with 1 pump. Right now I am 66% electric with a direct fire mash tun. I will likely be making the MT an eherms, but I want to be sure any steel I buy will be fine direct fire (I assumed all steel would be ok).


Am I looking for carbon steel or alloy steel?

Can someone help me ID the type of steel product I should be requesting from this company?


thanks!!
 
I'm also looking for help on this front, hope you dont mind if i piggyback :).

Were you looking to powder coat?

I'm looking to do all propane banjo burners so if all you homebrew metallurgists could lend some knowledge I'd be much obliged.

-MOOMOO
 
I used 3x2x.083 tubing for my 3 tier. I would recommend you not use less than 1.5x1.5x.065. I plan to build a single level from stainless next spring and will use 2x2x.065. Better safe than sorry when it comes to open flames and boiling liquids.
 
Piggy back is totally cool with me.

I probably will not powedercoat unless I can do it for supercheap. Likely it will be painted, but I am more looking for functionality with my rig. TOo much money has been flying out lately ;)

I am not going the route of a stainless rack just based on cost. Also, I don't mind a regular steel stand since I won't be eating off of it :)

You think 2x2 square tubing is really needed for a single tier? I have seen people build them out of 1'' square tubing. 2x2 seems like overkill
 
I like 2" for the stability that it gives the kettles. It also makes the stand more rigid so that vertical upright supports are not needed on the front or back. I put dimensions in my build thread located in my sig if you're interested.

I did powder coat my stand. The top level still gets beat up and I think high temp paint would hold up just as well and be easier to touch up. At some point I will end up sanding the top level of my stand and painting it.
 
Very cool set up Jon - love the software portion (now all you have left is to go electric! ;))

For sure your budget on this is bigger than mine!

I like the idea of recirculating in the HLT to keep the temp accurate. I was hoping to get away with using one pump, but I can see how nice it is to have three. The question becomes how much hardware is needed to make 1 pump do the jobs of 3. I was thinking about making a copper manifold for the three pots to run three lines into the pump opening, then having three lines to run out the pump to each. my thought was, as long as you have ball valves on the pots, I would only need 3 more ball valves on the exiting manifold, per line.
 
You won't be able to fly sparge on a single level with one pump if that was somthing you wanted to do. If you want to stay with one pump, I would go with a two level design similar to a Sabco (two kettles higher, one lower) or do a design with just one higher (HLT) and put the MLT and BK lower. Use the single pump for recirc of the MLT and then switch it over to pump into the BK.
 
You won't be able to fly sparge on a single level with one pump if that was somthing you wanted to do. If you want to stay with one pump, I would go with a two level design similar to a Sabco (two kettles higher, one lower) or do a design with just one higher (HLT) and put the MLT and BK lower. Use the single pump for recirc of the MLT and then switch it over to pump into the BK.

I don't plan on fly sparging, but hate to take the option of the table. Why is it that the pump can't accommodate a flysparge? Are the march pumps that limited in their lift capacity? guess what I am saying is... what is different from fly sparging than recirculating?

Clearly you have experience with this, just wanted to understand.
 
By the way - what was your wall thickness on the 2'' mild steel?
 
CidahMastah said:
I don't plan on fly sparging, but hate to take the option of the table. Why is it that the pump can't accommodate a flysparge? Are the march pumps that limited in their lift capacity? guess what I am saying is... what is different from fly sparging than recirculating?

Clearly you have experience with this, just wanted to understand.

You misunderstand what he is saying. The pumps work fine for flysparging, but because it involves simultaneously filling and draining the MLT, it requires TWO pumps if you go single-tier.
 
Fly sparging requires two simultaneous transfers. You need to run off from your MLT into the BK and at the same time add back sparge water from the HLT. The pump can only be doing one job at a time. If you went with a two level design like the Sabco Brew Magic style, you could gravity drain the MLT into the BK while using the pump to move sparge water from the HLT to the MLT. Alternatively, you could have just the HLT elevated and let it gravity drain into the MLT while the pump moved the wort from the MLT to the BK.

I will need to look up the wall thickness - I don't remember that off hand.
 
You misunderstand what he is saying. The pumps work fine for flysparging, but because it involves simultaneously filling and draining the MLT, it requires TWO pumps if you go single-tier.

yeah I just was coming to that conclusion in my head haha! Sometimes my firm grasp of the obvious er well... waivers.
 
And for that wall thickness, I was looking for a ball park. I am interested in asking the steel guys for a quote of precut steel to see how much this will take costwise. I was actually going to submit your stock cut list.

Update:


Reading some threads I think I will be going with 2x2'' 11g or 1/8'' square tubing for my build (mild steel). I like the added rugged factor and the relative ease of tapping the stock so I can add things (i.e. brew controller). Now I just have to get a quote and see about custom cutting vs. plain stock.
 
And for that wall thickness, I was looking for a ball park. I am interested in asking the steel guys for a quote of precut steel to see how much this will take costwise. I was actually going to submit your stock cut list.

Update:


Reading some threads I think I will be going with 2x2'' 11g or 1/8'' square tubing for my build (mild steel). I like the added rugged factor and the relative ease of tapping the stock so I can add things (i.e. brew controller). Now I just have to get a quote and see about custom cutting vs. plain stock.

Pretty sure mine is 1/8". At that thickness, you don't need vertical uprights in the front or rear of the stand. I know my stand could hold a car on it!

I use self tapping screws for mounting all my electrical underneath, J-boxes, pumps, chiller, etc. Even my new tippy dump was added with self tapping screws and it is solid as a rock.
 
Pretty sure mine is 1/8". At that thickness, you don't need vertical uprights in the front or rear of the stand. I know my stand could hold a car on it!

I use self tapping screws for mounting all my electrical underneath, J-boxes, pumps, chiller, etc. Even my new tippy dump was added with self tapping screws and it is solid as a rock.

Awesome! That sounds like very easy installation that will look very good.

Was just quoted about $185 delivered for 2x2 in precut stock from your cut list. Of course I didn't have them do the mitre cuts, but man that is VERY tempting to me. Though I am sure it would be a bit cheaper to get full length stock and cut it myself.

2qty 60'' length
2qty 18'' length
2qty 56'' length
8qty 14'' length
4qty 24'' length

CARBON STEEL SQUARE TUBING HREW A-513 TP 1 PICKLED & OILED

I assume this is the stuff I shoudl be looking for (see steel description above)?
 
I just got an e-mail from the guy who picked up my steel and he said he thinks it was 16 gauge (.065").

That sounds right. I've been researching for my eventual single-tier build and it seems 1.5" square 16 gauge was right in the middle of what people have been using...

Cheers!
 
anyone have any comments about stainless?

Sure: "$$$" ;)

I'd love to build a stainless single tier stand, as I have stainless kettles, stainless burner wind guards, stainless valves, stainless QDs and all fittings...but damn that stainless tubing stuff is pricey.

Still, it might happen, if my contract work holds up...

Cheers!
 
Im in the same boat looking at steel. I built the single tier in autocad and designed it using 1" X 1" angle at .125 (1/8") thick with a 1" X 1" square tubing border or collar. I too will "piggy back" your thread.
 
anyone have any comments about stainless?

My single tier stand was made with 1.5 inch 16 gauge (.065") stainless steel tubing. I sanded and polished the tubing after it was welded and it looks fantastic. I went with stainless steel plumbing for all the gas pipe and also used stainless tri-clover fittings. It costs a lot more, but I am buying all of my parts a little each month, so it doesn't mess with the budget. It takes longer to complete the build this way but I love the look of all stainless. The quality of this rig is amazing, this thing will last forever.

One thing with .065" tubing is that it is fairly thin and not thick enough so you can't tap it for threads to attach screws. I needed a flat rectangle piece of stainless steel to support the gas pipe underneath the top frame so I could use a pipe clamp to support the weight (I have a more elaborate configuration with drip legs), and I could not use a screw to mount the metal piece underneath the top of the frame. I thought about it for awhile and I was able to use two stainless steel pop rivets. I drilled two holes in the rectangle piece and under the top frame and then just pop riveted the metal piece to the underneath portion of the top frame. It worked like a charm, very solid, problem solved. Of course I could have had the metal piece welded to the underneath portion of the frame (I don't own a welder), but I already had polished the stand and didn't want to mess it up and have to sand and polish it again.

If your budget will allow it stainless looks great, you don't have to paint it, it won't rust if you don't ding it up and gouge it to badly (even then you could always repassivate it), and you don't have the flaking paint issues from the flames. If you decide to have a reqular steel stand powder coated, the cost to have this done is also expensive and you might save some money just buying stainless steel tube from the begining. Just my two cents though.......

John
 
I just got an e-mail from the guy who picked up my steel and he said he thinks it was 16 gauge (.065").

So sounds like if you went with 16g, you could still tap it reasonably? Sounds awfully thin to tap though i know it is doable based on project boxes I have built. Difference being I was tapping for small screws and small components.

hmm... maybe 1/8 is too much overkill? Probably heavy as heck as well. The wall thickness on my quote was .120
 
My single tier stand was made with 1.5 inch 16 gauge (.065") stainless steel tubing. I sanded and polished the tubing after it was welded and it looks fantastic. I went with stainless steel plumbing for all the gas pipe and also used stainless tri-clover fittings. It costs a lot more, but I am buying all of my parts a little each month, so it doesn't mess with the budget. It takes longer to complete the build this way but I love the look of all stainless. The quality of this rig is amazing, this thing will last forever.

One thing with .065" tubing is that it is fairly thin and not thick enough so you can't tap it for threads to attach screws. I needed a flat rectangle piece of stainless steel to support the gas pipe underneath the top frame so I could use a pipe clamp to support the weight (I have a more elaborate configuration with drip legs), and I could not use a screw to mount the metal piece underneath the top of the frame. I thought about it for awhile and I was able to use two stainless steel pop rivets. I drilled two holes in the rectangle piece and under the top frame and then just pop riveted the metal piece to the underneath portion of the top frame. It worked like a charm, very solid, problem solved. Of course I could have had the metal piece welded to the underneath portion of the frame (I don't own a welder), but I already had polished the stand and didn't want to mess it up and have to sand and polish it again.

If your budget will allow it stainless looks great, you don't have to paint it, it won't rust if you don't ding it up and gouge it to badly (even then you could always repassivate it), and you don't have the flaking paint issues from the flames. If you decide to have a reqular steel stand powder coated, the cost to have this done is also expensive and you might save some money just buying stainless steel tube from the begining. Just my two cents though.......

John

I was sort of feeling the same way about it, powder coating is just another step i dont want to have to deal with if i can avoid it.

any of you guys care to comment on the minimum thickness for tapping screws? i was looking to put some casters on the bottom and side of my stand (so i can store it vertically.
 
i used 1" angle and it's plenty strong enough, there are two 1" flat-bar columns between keggle locations though. I do wish i went with square tube btw, easier to grind down and angle has different stiffness on different axes.
 
So sounds like if you went with 16g, you could still tap it reasonably? Sounds awfully thin to tap though i know it is doable based on project boxes I have built. Difference being I was tapping for small screws and small components.

hmm... maybe 1/8 is too much overkill? Probably heavy as heck as well. The wall thickness on my quote was .120

Now that I think about it, it almost has to be thicker than 16g. I don't think it is up to 1/8" though. The only way I can measure it is to pull one of my casters out of a leg and use a caliper on it. It would be this weekend before I could do it.
 
Now that I think about it, it almost has to be thicker than 16g. I don't think it is up to 1/8" though. The only way I can measure it is to pull one of my casters out of a leg and use a caliper on it. It would be this weekend before I could do it.

If you don't mind that would be great just so I know I am not getting myself into a super heavy beast for no reason :) - I am still designing so no rush.

I mean the stock I was quoted at .120 it is a fuzz under 1/8 inch thickness, but darn close. However just talked with the guy and he said he doesn't stock smaller thickness in the 2x2'' tube steel. If I wanted a different size they would have to order it and it would be just slightly more expensive than the .120 stuff. i.e. I would like to stick with the tube steel in 1/8. If I don't I would have to consider 1.5x1.5 or similar.



outside92129 - I had heard angle was a B!tch to work with versus tube steel. Originally I was planning on working with that.


as for the tapping question, you can tap just about any thickness, depending on your thread sizing. For casters on a similar sized rig as Jon's I would think you would need thicker than 1/16 for them to be tapped reliably. You want some thread or you will end up putting all the stress on a tiny surface area and possibly strip the internal threading if you say, whacked into an obstacle while moving it. Not sure how likely that would be. Even if you stripped the threading, it is unlikely the caster would come off since the rig will be weighted over the caster's bolt.


lastly, I should be getting my new 100 qt mega pot tonight (have been using my electric 60qt HLT as BK too). So finally I will be able to lay them all out and get the tolerances set in reality, then on paper! Of course that also means my night will be setting it up with the electrics :rockin:
 
I'll get it measured. I don't think he was right with .065. I think .120 is closer and would be more than enough.

Take a look at the pics for my wheels. They mount inside the legs. They slide in and then you turn them to expand a large rubber sleeve that locks them in place. This is by far more secure than a bolt or self tapping screws could provide. They also lock the swivel and roll of the wheel.
 
I'll get it measured. I don't think he was right with .065. I think .120 is closer and would be more than enough.

Take a look at the pics for my wheels. They mount inside the legs. They slide in and then you turn them to expand a large rubber sleeve that locks them in place. This is by far more secure than a bolt or self tapping screws could provide. They also lock the swivel and roll of the wheel.

I didn't see the wheels on your thread ...looking now... - where did you source them from (if you recall)?
 
I bought them new, but second hand from someone.
They look very similar to these:
industrial-medium-duty-caster.jpg
 
Very cool. As with many of the things on your awesome rig - I bet they weren't cheap ;)
 
Very cool. As with many of the things on your awesome rig - I bet they weren't cheap ;)

$40 total for the set! Bought second hand, but new.

You would be very surprised at the bargain shopping I've done to build my rig. Fortunately, I had a (much simpler) previous rig that I used while I took my time sourcing everything for my current rig.

Get the base stand done first and then you can build it in steps from there. Just keep your eyes open for deals and you can save a lot.
 
$40 total for the set! Bought second hand, but new.

You would be very surprised at the bargain shopping I've done to build my rig. Fortunately, I had a (much simpler) previous rig that I used while I took my time sourcing everything for my current rig.

Get the base stand done first and then you can build it in steps from there. Just keep your eyes open for deals and you can save a lot.

Good advice. Walker, a HBTer that helped me with my ebuild, knows first hand how impatient I am once a start a project haha. I usually ended up paying for it! This time I will try to heed your advice since I know this will be a winter project for me. Since I have a good idea where my ultimate brew stand is headed I want to do it right the first time through.

I would totally give you $40 for those casters! ha That is an insane deal.
 
I was sort of feeling the same way about it, powder coating is just another step i dont want to have to deal with if i can avoid it.

any of you guys care to comment on the minimum thickness for tapping screws? i was looking to put some casters on the bottom and side of my stand (so i can store it vertically.

1/8 inch thick is probably the minimum thickness that could reliably be tapped, so enough screw threads would be present to hold the screw and whatever your attaching safely.
 
I just used a caliper on the leg of mine and the measurements varied from .094 to right about .1". Not as thick as 1/8 inch, but more than 1/16 inch. Some of the variance is probably due to sanding and painting.
 
I just used a caliper on the leg of mine and the measurements varied from .094 to right about .1". Not as thick as 1/8 inch, but more than 1/16 inch. Some of the variance is probably due to sanding and painting.

Awesome ! thanks for digging into the details on that for us all.



Thanks for the caster link as well. Once you start looking at casters the sky is the limit on price, and there are so many varieties you can get lost. Good to know a set that just works
 
I looked all over when I built my rig. Ended up building a 3 tier and use one pump. I like direct drain to the MLT from the HLT. As far as the frame, I just used 1 1/2" x 1/8" angle. Cheap and way strong enough. I used casters with cast wheels because the heat from my burners. Was concerned about anything that could melt. I painted it with grill paint and have had no issues with rust or not holding up. Bought the brush on and can't imagine spending for powder coat. Good luck on the build.
 
Dog house - I was originally going to do 3 tier, but have been debating 2 or 1 now. The main reason for the change was that I wanted to have teh option to brew in my basement (lower ceiling than garage) and in my garage. I have an electric system with direct fired tun. In my designs the HLT kept ending up at 5'9'' on paper, if I started with the BK at 14'' from the ground. That left me with very little room to fill the HLT and pumping to fill it seemed like a PITA. Anyway, now I am debating between a 2 tier and 1 tier.

Just got my new BK from AHS yesterday and they sent me a crap pot. Had a deformity in the bottom rim, dings, scratches and rust on the side that someone had tried to scuff off with an abrasive pad... Needless to say I am none too pleased. I am returning it for a new one but this just adds another delay. I really need to line the pots up together and see what things look like in reality, and not on paper before I decide to commit to a design.

I have been toying with the idea of using a heavy duty lockout slider too. Basically I would make it so the HLT was framed in directly above the MT on the rack. However the MT would be on a shelf that could be pulled out and locked out for the brew session so I could direct fire it. This would make a bit more of a compact footprint and keep the HLT gravity driven. Only issue I am debating is how much I will have to offset the weight of the extended drawer with a loaded MT on it! Or I could just commit to going eherms and be done with the fire concern. That is sounding more and more ideal.


Just out of curiosity, how much was the angle material cost-wise?
 
A few quick comments on structural builds.

Tapped holes generally should have 2 to 2-1/2 threads engagement. This means that a 1/4-20 thread should have 2/20 or .1 inch thick minimum material to avoid thread pull out. 3/8-16 bolts require 2/16 or .125 inch thick minimum material.

Structural angle causes problems cleaning the welds on the inside of the angle. Tubing is easier to clean up.

Material thickness for US sheet plate :
8 ga. = .1644"
10 ga. = .1345"
11 ga. = .1196"
14 ga. = .0747"
16 ga. = .0598"
18 ga. = .0478"
20 ga. = .0359"

This makes 1/4-20 threads the maximum size in 11 ga. material. If you need larger diameter threads, you should drill a hole and weld on a nut, or weld on a plate and drill and tap through it.

Hope this helps with brew stand build.

Note: I haven't yet built a welded brew stand, but I have 30 years experience in manufacturing engineering of mechanical and structural parts.

Chuck
 
That is a drag on the pot. I'm upgrading my HLT to a 25 gallon stainless pot. My local restaurant supply was the cheapest for me. Anyway, if I had my build to do over I would have built a 2 tier with my MLT higher in the center. I would love to have an all electric rig, especially if I were brewing indoors. I do love my 20 tip jet NG burners though. I can boil 22 gallons in 30-35 min. Never changing a propane tank is great. Everyone has different ideas and needs. That's what makes this place so nice. You can always find an answer here. :mug:
 
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