DFH 120 minute clone

sfrisby said:

Any thoughts on using brown sugar for the secondary additions. I am planning a stout with the dfh 120 technique. Thanks.

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Just a bump to see if anyone has tried secondary fermentation sugar additions with brown sugar instead of corn sugar. Any experience with flavor profiles or theories about flavors in a high gravity stout?

I can't speak for doing this with the 120, I used dextrose. But I can say I brewed a high gravity cider using dark brown sugar to bump the ABV and it ruined the flavor. Well ruined is harsh, lets say it took over the flavor, it's all you could taste. I had only used a couple pounds, I'd recommend you maybe use a pound max to get a little taste and flavor then stick to good ol corn sugar.

Hope that helps!

Great. Thanks. This isn't the batch I want to experiment too much with.

In the context of this thread, I don't know what you mean by "high gravity stout." But I frequently use 2-3 lbs of dark brown sugar in my Imperial stouts that range 10-11% abv. The key is much of the time store brands tend to have a better flavor than the major brand. These stouts have scored very well in comps and are greatly enjoyed by many critical beer connoisseurs. No worries on off flavors! Also, I brewed an 8g batch of 22% barley wine...err..brandy where I added 8lbs of light brown sugar. Again, no off flavors. Quite the contrary, this brew has been raved over at tastings at the LHBS. The point is if you have a good malt base, there is no reason to fear brown sugar.

I have a base stout recipe with a target OG of 1110, no sugar added. Then, as primary fermentation dies down, like with this dfh 120 thread, pitch a big wlp099 starter and begin sugar additions. This is where I was looking to add brown sugar. Thanks for your thoughts.

Well, I my had my last attempt at this to like 26% ish, I now have like 3lbs of Amarillo, citra centennial and 2 of simco on the way now. I think imma do a 10 gallon batch and limit it to 15-18 abv....getting excited!

Well I finally attempted this bad boy and man what a fun beer! My plan was to use the grain schedule from the beginning of this thread, and then use Pacific Jade Hops for bittering, and Citra, Nelson Sauvin, and Pacific Jade through the rest of the boil. I wanted to have the beer finish out at 15%.

I missed my OG by a few points, and ended up at 1.090, no big deal since I can make up for it with the sugar additions. I used 6 oz of Pacific Jade between 90 and 60 minutes. I stood outside with the temp at 28* and with a 30 mph wind blowing, tossing in a few pellets at a time. I then combined 2 oz each of Pacific Jade, Nelson Sauvin, and Citra and added these in equal increments between 30 and 0 minutes. Then at flame out I added another 3 oz of Citra, and 2 oz of Nelson. Holy Shiz talk about soup. I pitched a 6 liter starter of San Diego Super Yeast to get the party started, fit it with a blow off tube, and within 6 hours it was rockin and rollin. The yeast tore through this at an amazing pace. I checked gravity at the 48 hour mark and it was already at .028. I added 6 oz of sugar and had to beg my High Gravity Yeast Starter to hurry. I added 12 oz of sugar twice the next day and then pitched a 4 liter starter of the High Gravity Yeast. I added a total of 5 lbs of Dextrose for a total OG of 1.125. The yeast did an awesome job, and after 2 weeks in the primary, I am down to .010. I am sitting just a touch over 15%.

I am amazed how sweet this beer is at that gravity. The Hop flavor is out of this world! lots of Citrus flavor, with passion fruit, and a nice hint of sauvin flavor from the Nelson. I am surprised that the bittering is actually pronounced, after reading the other posts. The plan is to do 3 different dry hop additions once I transfer this to the secondary, with Citra and Nelson. I am stoked, this beer is going to rock!

Cool story bro! It's sweet at that gravity because it's actually not at that gravity - the super high alcohol is making it read lower than a beer with the same amount of residual sugar and less alcohol would. But, I'll bet it will come down more. That 099 is a creeper. Mine finished at "1.00". Sounds delicious.

Just an update for those that are still following this thread. I transferred my beer from the primary to secondary last night and the gravity has stabilized at .007, not too shabby. Tasted the sample again, and HOLY CRAP! Grapefruit and Citrus central. It is not nearly as sweet and syrupy now, but the aromas are top notch. Added my first dry hop addition of 1oz each Citra, Nelson and Pacific Jade, Hop Bomb here we go!

Being that I didn't find any threads with solid info on The Bruery's Black Tuesday or Chocolate Rain, and since this thread was my inspiration, I thought this would be the best place to inquire.

I am brewing an attempt at Chocolate Rain. That is Bruery's boubon barrel aged imperial stout aged on cocoa nibs and vanilla beans. I did a stout that went from 1.120 to 1.029 with S-05. I then pitched a 6L starter of WLP099 and added a 50-50 split of brown sugar and corn sugar in 8oz increments. This is where it gets weird. It seems if done right, you all are adding 8oz sugar every 12 hours. So the yeast is burning through it at about 8 points a day. Mine is working through it at a rate of 1 point every 2 days. It was that rate at the beginning and is still going strong, but at that same slow rate since Dec 19th.

At one point I was concerned and did another 1L starter of 099 that I stepped up to 2L and pitched that. Still the same rate. Good news is it has been consistant and keeps plugging along after 7 of 12 planned sugar additions. Temperature in temp controlled fridge in garage doesn't get above 60 right now, so I have it in a closet upstairs at 68-72*. Any thoughts on the difference in 099 progress? Thanks.

What temp did you mash at? I did mine at like 147 to maximize fermentanles

148*. And I would expect the temp to be associated with the s-05 to get it to 1.029, not the sugar additions with 099 afterwards.

Ahhh very true... did you add any yeast nutrient or servo

kosmokramer said:

Ahhh very true... did you add any yeast nutrient or servo

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I did to the boil, not to the 099. I added O2 to the 099 starter. That was the only addition to the starter.

"Tactical Nuclear Kraken" Time to Release the Kraken (e.g. Krausen)!
Brewed 2/23/13 at my friend's house in another state and he has been managing the fermentation.

24gal batch
76.5# Pilsner 2-Row Malt
2# Amber Malt
2# Crystal 45L Malt
MASHED 90min at 147F
BOILED 100min
Late extract add (last 10min): 2# DME & 4# Dark Liquid Candi Sugar 180L
HOPS:
First Wort - 16oz Warrior
20min - 2oz each of Amarillo, Simcoe & Zeus
15min - 2oz each of Amarillo, Simcoe & Zeus
10min - 2oz each of Amarillo, Simcoe & Zeus
5min - 4oz Citra & 2oz each of Amarillo, Simcoe & Zeus
0min (flame out) - 4oz Citra & 2oz each of Amarillo, Simcoe & Zeus

PITCHED 12 packs Safale American US-05 (no starter). Added 2tbsp yeast nutrient.
Oxygenated with O2 stone prior to pitching and each day for first 7 days in primary.
On Day 3, started adding 40# of Dextrose, 24oz at a time, 2x per day.
On Day 5, Pitched 3 gal starter of SHG WLP099 with a lot of Yeast nutrient (starter included 0.5gal of wort from the batch).
His 27gal Blichmann Fermenator didn't have much headspace left so drained some trub from bottom prior to pitching 3gal starter.

Day 8: Have added 20# of dextrose so far (missed a day) and gravity prior to adding was 1.020 (~16-17% ABV).

There are some different things in the recipe like the 180L candi sugar and a mix of hops. We had a lot of Zeus laying around so decided to use that after we cleaned out the LHBS when buying all the Amarillo, Citra & Simcoe. Our mash wasn't very efficient so we added the DME and 180L to increase the OG. Once the yeast starts dying off (we are shooting for 20%+ ABV) then we'll drain the yeast cake from the bottom then start the secondary conditioning.
DRY HOP:
14 days: 4oz each of Citra & Zeus + 3oz each of Amarillo & Simcoe
7 days: 4oz each of Citra & Zeus + 3oz each of Amarillo & Simcoe

After 14 days of secondary, cold crash for 2-3 days, rack to cornys, force carbonate (~2.2vols) & bottle in 12oz bottles with scottland's wax tops. Sample liberally :cross:

Wow, that is flipping awesome. We're going to need some pictures when it's done.

Brew Magic RIMS system with 27gal Fermenator and Chill Wizard. We combined two ~12 gal batches into one 24gal batch. Wort picture is Tactical Nuclear Kraken on Day 8.

Insane brew and great system you have there.

Look at that setup.............!

No kidding, talk about brewing bling.

I'm brewing a high ABV QIPA (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/13-hop-qipa-aka-plinyfish-heady-120-a-437125/index3.html) based off your recipe and just read through this entire thread. Looks like I might not want to push it past the 1.150 OG it's at now because 1.020 will be too sweet for my tastes. I also want to bottle condition, so I guess I will try champagne yeast. Just wondering if anyone has a suggestion for how much champagne yeast and sugar to add per bottle. I normally add 2g of sucrose to my DIPAs and get what I would say is 2.0-2.2 volumes of CO2 after a week or two.

nvrstck said:

"Tactical Nuclear Kraken" Time to Release the Kraken (e.g. Krausen)!
Brewed 2/23/13 at my friend's house in another state and he has been managing the fermentation.

24gal batch
76.5# Pilsner 2-Row Malt
2# Amber Malt
2# Crystal 45L Malt
MASHED 90min at 147F
BOILED 100min
Late extract add (last 10min): 2# DME & 4# Dark Liquid Candi Sugar 180L
HOPS:
First Wort - 16oz Warrior
20min - 2oz each of Amarillo, Simcoe & Zeus
15min - 2oz each of Amarillo, Simcoe & Zeus
10min - 2oz each of Amarillo, Simcoe & Zeus
5min - 4oz Citra & 2oz each of Amarillo, Simcoe & Zeus
0min (flame out) - 4oz Citra & 2oz each of Amarillo, Simcoe & Zeus

PITCHED 12 packs Safale American US-05 (no starter). Added 2tbsp yeast nutrient.
Oxygenated with O2 stone prior to pitching and each day for first 7 days in primary.
On Day 3, started adding 40# of Dextrose, 24oz at a time, 2x per day.
On Day 5, Pitched 3 gal starter of SHG WLP099 with a lot of Yeast nutrient (starter included 0.5gal of wort from the batch).
His 27gal Blichmann Fermenator didn't have much headspace left so drained some trub from bottom prior to pitching 3gal starter.

Day 8: Have added 20# of dextrose so far (missed a day) and gravity prior to adding was 1.020 (~16-17% ABV).

There are some different things in the recipe like the 180L candi sugar and a mix of hops. We had a lot of Zeus laying around so decided to use that after we cleaned out the LHBS when buying all the Amarillo, Citra & Simcoe. Our mash wasn't very efficient so we added the DME and 180L to increase the OG. Once the yeast starts dying off (we are shooting for 20%+ ABV) then we'll drain the yeast cake from the bottom then start the secondary conditioning.
DRY HOP:
14 days: 4oz each of Citra & Zeus + 3oz each of Amarillo & Simcoe
7 days: 4oz each of Citra & Zeus + 3oz each of Amarillo & Simcoe

After 14 days of secondary, cold crash for 2-3 days, rack to cornys, force carbonate (~2.2vols) & bottle in 12oz bottles with scottland's wax tops. Sample liberally :cross:

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I just picked up a 27 gallon heated and cooled conical and can't wait to brew this again but with that much grain and sugar I would hate to make a mistake although my last 7 gallon batch was amazing

kosmokramer said:

I just picked up a 27 gallon heated and cooled conical and can't wait to brew this again but with that much grain and sugar I would hate to make a mistake although my last 7 gallon batch was amazing

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I think you'll do fine. No worries. This beer has been incredible! We didn't realize how huge the yeast cake was. Thought we had drained most of it from the bottom of the conical after primary was done but when we went to transfer to Corny's realized the entire cone was plugged up. Cooling will be nice since that yeast cake in the cone put off some serious heat. This brew yielded four full 5gal Corny's.

nvrstck said:

I think you'll do fine. No worries. This beer has been incredible! We didn't realize how huge the yeast cake was. Thought we had drained most of it from the bottom of the conical after primary was done but when we went to transfer to Corny's realized the entire cone was plugged up. Cooling will be nice since that yeast cake in the cone put off some serious heat. This brew yielded four full 5gal Corny's.

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mine was great the first time too, and having a conical will make it so much easier....the other awesome thing is since the last time i brewed this i have opened a homebrew shop, wholesale costs plus tax deduction =

this time i will do a ten gallon batch of a low grav pale with 007 and pitch the whole washed sluury and then make a couple 5000 ml starters of 099, i didnt aerate at all last time and the drop of olive oil work awesome so ill prolly go that route again.... thanks for the encouraging words

Are you guys puling a sample and mixing in the dextrose or just pouring on top?

kosmokramer said:

Are you guys puling a sample and mixing in the dextrose or just pouring on top?

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When I made mine I melted it down in a little water to make a syrup. It doesn't take much water and I doubt if it diluted it noticeably.

I used a glass measuring cup and mixed the sugar with my sample before I poured it back in.

OK, so this has been such a long journey for me. I did a 15 gallon batch.

....long story short

The batch is stuck @ 1.070
O.G. with all of the sugar calculations is 1.177

I have tried pitching a 6 gallon (decanted) starter of WLP099 back onto it....nothing happened after weeks of waiting. I also tried raising the temperature to 70 degrees....nothing.

I figured WTH, it may be OK, so I dry hopped anyways, and kegged it. I figured that the carbonation and hops would help the flavor. I just tried it tonight, and it's disgustingly sweet. I've talked it over with a friend, and he had an idea that may save me from dumping all 15 gallons.

What if?
1. Take it out of the keg and dilute it 50% with water.
2. With the now lower gravity and ABV, repitch.
3. Once fermentation hopefully finishes out....ice concentrate the beer.
4. Rekeg it to force carbonate it.

I could really use some input here.

That's an interesting idea. Desperate times call for desperate measures I suppose you have nothing to lose by trying it out. I might pull off a couple liters and try it on that scale before diluting the whole 10 gallons.

What was your OG before the sugar additions? Is it possible you had mash issues which lead the malt portion of the wort to be very unfermentable? (In which case you may need some fresh enzymatic activity to save it)



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No, it is not from unfermentables. I've seen the gravity as low as 1.030 before adding any sugar at all.

Then if it is all simple sugars, maybe add some champagne yeast that is cheap, high alcohol tolerance, and should chew up simple sugars.

Bumping up the gravity from 1.030 to 1.070 is definitely not the way to go for a high ABV beer, if you do such a batch in the future, you should bump it up by 10 points at a time tops and wait for it to come back down before adding sugar. It seems like you added way too much sugar and overwhelmed the yeast. Also, if you already added WLP099 and it didn't get the job done, no other yeast is. Diluting sounds like a good idea though. It will get your gravity lower and then maybe some ACTIVE (meaning don't cold crash your starter) WLP099 can do something. Also I would recommend using http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/ and use your calculated OG from your original wort before adding sugar and a target pitch rate of 1.25 to figure out how many cells you really need. I'd also recommend stepping up multiple starters rather than making one big starter.

I have a few things to try yet. Here is what I'm going to do.

1. Take a 1 gallon glass jug and fill it 3/4 full with what I have that is 1.070
2. Pitch a freshly hydrated packet of EC-1118, and see what the gravity looks like in several days.
3. If that doesn't work, then I could try the same experiment with WLP099, but this time don't cold crash it to decant off the starter beer. I'm reluctant to try WLP099 again since I decanted 2 x 6 gallon starters and the second time it did nothing (but maybe that's because it wasn't really active since I cold crashed it).
4. If that doesn't work, then I'll try again but dilute the beer first...then freeze concentrate it afterwards.

I figure that the dilute, then repitch, then freeze concentrate method will be the absolute last resort option to try.

BigIrukandji said:

I have a few things to try yet. Here is what I'm going to do.

1. Take a 1 gallon glass jug and fill it 3/4 full with what I have that is 1.070
2. Pitch a freshly hydrated packet of EC-1118, and see what the gravity looks like in several days.

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Your beer is about 15% ABV so it will be tough to get that restarted. Try making a small starter with the EC1118 first using a 50/50 mixture of water and the 1.070 beer so the yeast isn't shocked when it is pitched to the 15% ABV. When you made the 6 gal starter, did you step it up to that? You need more than 2 trillion cells and you definitely have to get there using 3 steps if starting with 50-200 billion cells.

I wonder if anyone has tried gently stirring the massive yeast cake to get the yeast back into solution? In my 24 gal batch, there was easily 3 gal of sludge in the fermenter.

Yes it was stepped up. First a gallon, then 3, then 5. I concur with the 3 gallons of yeast when I emptied the conical.

Here's where I'm at.

I tried pitching the rehydrated EC-1118 on a gallon of the beer with zero results. Next I tried the same thing with 50/50 water and beer. It's now fermenting nicely on that 1 gallon. Tonight I decided to try the same thing with the WLP099 to see how well that works. I'm going to do 1/2 gallon of beer, 1/4 gallon of water, 1/4 gallon starter with 1 vial. I also threw a small amount of the yeast from the initial fermentation into the starter.

A few big questions are now on my mind:
1. If the EC-1118 and WLP099 do equally well on the diluted beer, then which yeast do I decide on?

2. Once I decide on a yeast (leaning towards the WLP099), do I dare to pitch it directly onto 4-5 gallons of beer to see if it can handle it; or do I dilute again 50/50 or 60/40ish?

If I dilute (which I'm strongly leaning towards), then I still planning on freeze concentrating it once the fermentation is done again. I currently have about 15.5 gallons of beer. So diluting will give me around 25-30 gallons of fermented beer. I'll have to freeze concentrate it by 50% once I'm all done if I go that route. I really wonder how much this will effect the taste, but at this point I'm not sure I'll be able to dry it out any other way.

I don't like the idea of you having to dilute the entire bacth then freeze distilling after all the work you've already done so far. I would save that as the last resort. I was only suggesting diluting the beer that would be used to rehydrate the yeast. Now that that started going, you can turn that gallon into a bigger starter using some more beer. Then I'd repitch that starter to the full batch and I think it should take off. The idea is to get the yeast used to the fermenting your beer instead of a DME starter solution. I have used WLP099 to ~19+% ABV and don't have experience with the EC-1118 at this gravity so I'd stick with the WLP099. To answer your second question, I guess you could try adding some of the beer directly to the starter to step it up that way without diluting it. You could measure the gravity of your starter after the first 50/50 step then add the right volume of 1.070 beer to get the starter gravity to 1.035-1.040. So if your 1gal starter is now at 1.020, then if you add 0.75gal of 1.070 beer, you'd now have a 1.75 gal starter that is used to fermenting your beer and probably is ready to pitch to the entire batch. I may consider doing that once again (eg, stepping the 1.75gal to ~3gal) depending on how well you think the yeast is doing. I don't know, I'm just making all this up on the fly but that is one of the awesome things about beer, you can MacGyver the hell out of it. I've never had a batch of beer go bad...one time I turned a pale ale into an undrinkable banana ester beer by underpitching by a huge amount (it turns out that you shouldn't wash yeast using starsan, lol) but saved the whole batch by pitching brett to it and waiting several months- it ate all the esters and I ended up with a funky pale. Be sure to give your yeast some more yeast nutrient and maybe even hit it with some oxygen on your first step.

One unrelated lesson I learned from my DFH 120min is to wait until after you have reached terminal gravity to dry hop. Otherwise the yeast will blow all that aroma right out of the airlock while it's viciously fermenting.

OK, so I ended up using EC-1118 since it was all simple sugars. In the end, I ended up adding roughly 4 gallons of water throughout the process to get the gravity from 1.077 down to 1.040. The main activity has slowed down, but there should still be several days of fermentation yet. I'm hoping I can get it down to at least 1.035, where it should be drinkable. Once the fermentation is done, I'll pull off a bit to try and see how sweet it is at that point. At that point I'll make a decision if I'll just stick to the 18-19 gallons that I have right now, or if I'll freeze concentrate it down to 15 gallons or so. Either way, it looks like this batch has been saved...although it won't taste nearly as hoppy...it'll probably taste more like a barleywine.

I'll post another update in a few weeks or a month or so.

You might want to try alpha amylase. I hear that can make a big difference.

I am both a brewer and a mead maker and was thinking of doing this clone. I have a boatload of honey right now and was thinking of substituting the dextrose in this recipe with the honey I have. I would use it in the exact fashion as the recipe calls (adding in doses throughout fermentation). Any thoughts on how this would work?

berny88 said:

I am both a brewer and a mead maker and was thinking of doing this clone. I have a boatload of honey right now and was thinking of substituting the dextrose in this recipe with the honey I have. I would use it in the exact fashion as the recipe calls (adding in doses throughout fermentation). Any thoughts on how this would work?

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I've heard honey attenuates much slower. If that is the case it would not be a good substitute for dextrose. You need something that attenuates fast.