MrManifesto
Well-Known Member
about not needing to aerate dry yeast. This is completely false info and I can just picture noobs taking this in and having a ton of stuck ferments. Let's nip this in the bud! Aerate, people!
There's Some Bad Info Going Around
- Thread starter MrManifesto
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JonK331
Well-Known Member
Good point. All worts should be aerated regardless of type or form of yeast.
i'm with ya there, bro!
i've been seeing this and another piece of bad info being given to new brewers. the second is that you don't need to make a starter with liquid yeast. i think it's bad for folks to be advising new brewers against proper technique because they can make decent beer without starters and proper aeration. pitch rates, aeration and fermentation temps are crucial to great beer. i know people make good beer while ignoring these facts, but i think new brewers should be informed that with a few very simple steps, they can make great beer, and not just good beer.
big thumbs up to you, MrManifesto! Prost! 
Diver165
Well-Known Member
I noticed my beer quality improved greatly with aeration and sticking to the proper fermentation temps. I'm just now getting into starters. I'll be picking peoples brains in the days to come.
D_Ranged_Eskimo
Well-Known Member
I got a stir plate for Christmas and can't wait to use it to see what the difference will be. I've made decent beer for what I was expecting so far, but can't wait to throw in proper pitch rate!
JustLooking
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The leading figure in yeast research in the UK and someone who actually worked for lallemand/danstar on yeast viability told me (and other commercial brewers in a lab session/lecture) specifically NOT to aerate.
But hey, what would they know.
But hey, what would they know.
For the first three posters, I'm sure you all believe what you say, but to state your beliefs as facts without anything to back them up isn't helping anybody.
-a.
-a.
wildwest450
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Do some research before posting, it is NOT necessary.
Threads like this make me sick.
Just because the majority believe something, that doesn't make it so.
Threads like this make me sick.
Just because the majority believe something, that doesn't make it so.
wildwest450 said:
Me too! I'm actually a little bit angry that the op is making us out to be people spreading bad information (even though we're using information from the company and scientists) and then he offers no evidence to support his claim that our advice is 'completely false'.
It's actually a little be insulting.
From Danstar:
So, do you want to believe some guy on the internet or the company who makes the product?
But fermentis says to aerate with their yeasts. So do you want to believe the makers of Notty, or the makers of us-05?
This is another one of those arguments that probably will never be resolved and will be argued incessantly. And like all the others will have no resolution, so it's stupid to argue, just choose what you believe, and do it.
I was taught to aerate will all yeasts....And I personally don't plan on stopping. It may not be "necessary," but I don't think doing it is harmful either.
wildwest450
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Especially since he's taking this from another thread where faulty information is being touted as gospel.
wildwest450
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It isn't and never was presented as such. After many, many batches with dry yeast and never a stalled or incomplete fermentation, coupled with what experts say, I have no doubt.
The problem lies when people blame stalled fermentations on improper aeration, which is complete nonsense.
terrapinj
Well-Known Member
there's a good thread about this on the brewing network board
Beer Forum • View topic - Should you oxygenate/aerate dry yeast?
good explanation by Dr. Clayton Cone from Danstar/Lallemand
Aeration and Starter Versus Wort | Danstar Premium Beer Yeasts - The Dry Yeast Advantage
Beer Forum • View topic - Should you oxygenate/aerate dry yeast?
good explanation by Dr. Clayton Cone from Danstar/Lallemand
Aeration and Starter Versus Wort | Danstar Premium Beer Yeasts - The Dry Yeast Advantage
Revvy said:But fermentis says to aerate with their yeasts. So do you want to believe the makers of Notty, or the makers of us-05?
I was taught to aerate will all yeasts....And I personally don't plan on stopping. It may not be "necessary," but I don't think doing it is harmful either.
A) Nottingham is the best selling dried yeast in the world... just sayin'
B) everyone can do what they want and have their opinion, but the op shouldn't be starting a thread like this (in my opinion, of course)
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But fermentis says to aerate with their yeasts. So do you want to believe the makers of Notty, or the makers of us-05?
okay, Revvy, I'll bite.
Fermentis recommends to aerate to mix the wort/yeast completely.
Fermentis said:
Now, we know the main reasone adequate aeration is needed with liquid yeast is because plenty of oxygen is needed during the initial reproductive phase (which isn't needed with dry yeast pitching rates).
So, while Fermentis may recommend aeration, it certainly isn't to increase oxygen levels; it's solely for mixing of yeast/wort.
And Fermentis has never had any of their yeasts recalled have they?
(I personally think Notty sucks.)
I'm really not getting into this argument, if you look at what I wrote, I said it's stupid to argue about it. I just was pointing out the different view....
There's actually a very interesting discussion of all this on pro-brewer about the fact that 2 different companies state different things. Undortunately my computer crashed and I can't find the link, or if it was probrewer or another forum.
Most of the folks in that thread were of the mindset to just do what works for you....I tend to agree.
I just was pointing out that fermentis says one thing and danstar says another.
I agree that the OP need not have jumped the gun and said it was bad advice. It's really like so much brewing stuff, just another opinion.
You need to better understand yeast life-cycles.
kmk1012 said:
Read some of the info on this thread.
Revvy - wasn't arguing. And I partially agree on Nottingham. It's ok when used cool (like homebrew temps), but at temps some commercial brewers are trying to use it at round here it's sulfur bombing their beer.
Keep in mind that Fermentis and Lallemand might be using different processes when making their yeasts. Lallemand might have more lipids than Fermentis, creating different o2 needs.
Even if Lallemand doesn't need o2, it is a best practice to do it every time, so you're in the habit of it when you do need it.
Even if Lallemand doesn't need o2, it is a best practice to do it every time, so you're in the habit of it when you do need it.
That's a good question. There's all sorts of info out there why it is unnecessary, but I don't think it can cause any harm. Unless there is an increased possibility of bacterial contamination. Also, I remember hearing a podcast of where excessive O2 was the cause of an off flavor (a Jamil podcast I think).
Search for Dr. Clayton Cone and you'll find all the trustable info you want on dry yeast.
I dunno, every time I've attempted to aerate dry yeast, it just flies all over the room...
wailingguitar
Well-Known Member
I always aerate, BUT according to the manufacturers it isn't necessary... at least not when pitching the dry, it is when using slurry derived from it
Beer Home Brewing Why use Fermentis Yeast
Frequently Asked Questions | Danstar Premium Beer Yeasts - The Dry Yeast Advantage
This is part of my reasoning for continuing to do it. I try to have a consistent process in my brewing practice. Keeps me from forgetting things like pitching yeast or sanitizing or adding hops, so even if I'm drunk, answering questions while brewing, or if there's any chance of interruption, my process is steady, and works for me. "Step w" aerate, step x pitch yeast, step y sanitize lid/stopper, step z seal fermenter.'
NochEineMassBitte said:I dunno, every time I've attempted to aerate dry yeast, it just flies all over the room...
Haha, much needed humour in this thread.
FYI I was told it can increase staling. Yeast won't take up ALL the oxygen you add (or so the oxygen meter at work tells me). So if you don't specifically need it, it's best not to add it.
I dunno, every time I've attempted to aerate dry yeast, it just flies all over the room...
Made me think of the movie where, I think it was, Woody Allen that sneezed on the line of coke and blew it way.
PoppinCaps
Well-Known Member
Short answer, depending on the manufacture date of the vial, you might have anywhere from 30-70 billion viable cells in there, for a needed 190 billion or so for a 5 gallon batch. It will make beer, but a starter will get you to better pitching rates.
MrManifesto
Well-Known Member
wildwest450 said:
Jamil Z seems to think it's necessary, as do most books I've read.
A producer of a product is in selling product, not making sure you've got the best beer possible. I'm not saying they're bad people, but it's business.
I'm posting from my phone so it's hard to site sources but google the maltose falcons and they research they've done.
MrManifesto
Well-Known Member
wildwest450 said:
Lol...am I? I don't even know what thread you're talking about.
If you're talking about THIS, on first glance I think they're really only talking about liquid cultures. I only scanned it, but they keep talking about smack packs and tubes.
MrManifesto
Well-Known Member
Revvy said:
Could be right, it's been a couple since I've read it. Thing is, though, yeast is yeast. Only difference between dry and liquid is that dry has been through a different process (that's pretty tough on them) to make them "dried". They're still the same beast, though and if we're agreeing that it's good to aerate liquid, why not dry? Someone smarter than me may very well know, I'm not trying to present myself as the end all, be all of homebrew but it just doesn't stand to reason with what I know now.
I acknowledge that's there's more to know and if someone can present some real, clear info, I'll change my mind.
Of course, it can become a thickly scientific topic quickly when you move from anecdote to proof. But I think Dr. Clayton Cone knows what he's talking about - this has been referred to a couple of times now. Here's a link and a quote from it. I'd suggest that if you like your beer, just keep doing what you are doing
"Yeast need a trace amount of oxygen in an anaerobic fermentation such as brewing to produce lipids in the cell wall. With out O2 the cell cannot metabolize the squalene to the next step which is a lipid. ... Lallemand packs the maximum amount of lipids into the cell wall that is possible during the aerobic production of the yeast at the factory. ... When you produce 3-5% alcohol beer this is no problem. It is when you produce higher alcohol beer or inoculate at a lower rate, that you need to add O2 to produce more yeast and for alcohol tolerance near the end of fermentation. You definitely need added O2 when you reuse the yeast for the next inoculum."
Aeration and Starter Versus Wort | Danstar Premium Beer Yeasts - The Dry Yeast Advantage
Of course, it can become a thickly scientific topic quickly when you move from anecdote to proof. But I think Dr. Clayton Cone knows what he's talking about - this has been referred to a couple of times now. Here's a link and a quote from it. I'd suggest that if you like your beer, just keep doing what you are doing
"Yeast need a trace amount of oxygen in an anaerobic fermentation such as brewing to produce lipids in the cell wall. With out O2 the cell cannot metabolize the squalene to the next step which is a lipid. ... Lallemand packs the maximum amount of lipids into the cell wall that is possible during the aerobic production of the yeast at the factory. ... When you produce 3-5% alcohol beer this is no problem. It is when you produce higher alcohol beer or inoculate at a lower rate, that you need to add O2 to produce more yeast and for alcohol tolerance near the end of fermentation. You definitely need added O2 when you reuse the yeast for the next inoculum."
Aeration and Starter Versus Wort | Danstar Premium Beer Yeasts - The Dry Yeast Advantage
Right, and who is making 3% beer here? I want them BANNED!
sudsmcgee
Well-Known Member
Completely false? The only statement that's completely false is that you're a paid member who values this site enough to fork over some cash for a membership. :fro:
You CAN, but don't NEED to aerate when using dry yeast. I've done it both ways and it makes no difference that I can perceive.
