Metallic/Astringent OFF flavors in all my batches, absolutely stumped, please help me

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Dane

Dane

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OK, I'm absolutely fed up with this ongoing problem I've been having. I've dumped over 30 gallons and cannot find the source. My latest dumpage was a wit that had the same taste. I can only describe it as a bit tart, minerally, maybe metallic, it's just off, here are my conclusions.

1. Bad co2 or co2 lines: It's a new batch of co2 so.. Checked my lines, all clean, regulator is clean, taps, etc. However I brewed a stout that came out fine on the same co2

2. Abbrasive scrubbing of the keggle. I don't this this is highly likely, I've always scrubbed it out and had great beer

3. Bad storage of my grain but this last batch was fresh ground from Northern Brewer

4. Overcarbing the brew, but this batch is on day one at 15 psi and has that taste

5. The local water: I have a nice filter that has worked great but I moved to a different part of town and used RO water last, same taste.

6. Forgetting to purge the O2 out of the tank: I forget to do this often but when I do it never results in a consistent foul taste. I've forgotten to purge on many beers that turned out fine

7. Bad beer lines: I switched them all out, same

I've boiled down this problem to two options. One is not regulating my PH mash and sparge water, I never have. The other is forgetting to purge giving the brew an off flavor.

I've noticed that this problem has only occurred on the lighter beers. It's been either my blonde's or wit's. The hoppier darker beers always turn out great.

Man I'm stumped can anyone offer other idea's? I know this is a long thread and lots to read but this problem is really really pissing me off, especially watching my beer go down the drain over and over.
 
I think you need to start eliminating some of those possibilities. Start by figuring out which point in your system might be causing this. It looks like your not sure if its the kegging system or whether its occurring at some point in your brewing.
I would start by eliminating the kegging system by bottling your next batch and go from there.
 
Well I've read that a slight metallic flavor can be noticed from oxidized beer. Astringency can come from over sparging and too high PH or too high of mash temps. Or mashing too long I use 5.2 and am happy. Some don't like or use it. Some say it causes salty beer. I tasted it. It is slightly, but even still a little salt in 5 gallons is negligible at best.
 
I climate control all my brews through a johnson control unit, it's not the typical hoof prints of bad fermentation. The kettle is a converted stainless keggle, I'm quite positive it is sound, even after abrasive scrubbing. It may be a combination of high mash temps( I have a RIMS system) and can jump up into the 156 on a 152 mash and I fly sparge at 170 for 60 everytime. Nonetheless, I have brewed dozens on my system, one placing silver, and I cannot figure it out.

Of course I can go with the eliminating problems by bottling a batch, pain in the ass and a shame when I have a dual tower kegerator but it may come down to this. Is it the process or the kegerator. I've never been this stumped and disappointed in my brew, sucks
 
elpenoso said:
I think you need to start eliminating some of those possibilities. Start by figuring out which point in your system might be causing this. It looks like your not sure if its the kegging system or whether its occurring at some point in your brewing.
I would start by eliminating the kegging system by bottling your next batch and go from there.
Click to expand...

Good advice right here. Eliminating certain aspects will help you narrow down what it is you're looking for.
 
How bout this? How much time before you are deciding this problem? There are so many variable,its wise to write down everything you do when making a batch,your whole process from cleaning to drinking.
 
I think it has something to do with your water/PH and lighter kilned malts. You say that your dark beers come out great and only your lighter beers have the issue. If it was bad sanitation/fermentation practices I would think all your beers would have the problem. It must be really bad though because I can't imagine dumping 30 gallons unless it was nastiest, infected beer.
 
Phunhog said:
I think it has something to do with your water/PH and lighter kilned malts. You say that your dark beers come out great and only your lighter beers have the issue. If it was bad sanitation/fermentation practices I would think all your beers would have the problem. It must be really bad though because I can't imagine dumping 30 gallons unless it was nastiest, infected beer.
Click to expand...

I am also leaning to this. Have you thought about doing an extract batch with your water? or even with spring water from the store? Maybe you could do 2 half batches - one with your water and one with Store bought. Do same recipe, yeast and ferm temp and see what happens.

You could get ph strips for your mash, or maybe a water report of you water? These are all pricey options, so maybe (if you already have the equipment) bottle the next batch like elpenoso suggested

At the Very least, take a LOT of notes. If you already are, double or triple it. Then start looking at the patterns. If it is water related there are TONS of variables - you didn't mention mash to grain ration (could affect ph) or how many total quarts/liters you are using per lb/kg of grain.

Hope this helps
 
I was thinking it was oxidation for a while now, but I'm beginning to think it's not after the problem rearing it's ugly head again after, what I thought, was a perfect brew day. I'm thinking it may be a water issue. I will say I do half store bought spring water and half treated spigot water (camden tablets, 5.2) and I do check with ph strips and all seems fine. My second theory is that its the better bottle carboy.

After doing tons of searches about the Metallic flavor, it seems there is no definitive answer. Really annoying.
 
erockomania said:
I was thinking it was oxidation for a while now, but I'm beginning to think it's not after the problem rearing it's ugly head again after, what I thought, was a perfect brew day. I'm thinking it may be a water issue. I will say I do half store bought spring water and half treated spigot water (camden tablets, 5.2) and I do check with ph strips and all seems fine. My second theory is that its the better bottle carboy.

After doing tons of searches about the Metallic flavor, it seems there is no definitive answer. Really annoying.
Click to expand...

I'm confused... you were not the OP, right? haha
 
What do you use for sanitizer?

What is your water chemistry?

What type of plastic is your beer line made from?

How old is the beer before your taste and dump?

Darker beers tend to hide off flavors. It's entirely possible that you are getting the same flavors in your darker beers, but can't taste them.
 
here is a quote from Palmer's "How to Brew"

Metallic
Metallic flavors are usually caused by unprotected metals dissolving into the wort but can also be caused by the hydrolysis of lipids in poorly stored malts. Iron and aluminum can cause metallic flavors leaching into the wort during the boil. The small amount could be considered to be nutritional if it weren't for the bad taste. Nicks and cracks ceramic coated steel pots are a common cause as are high iron levels in well water. Stainless steel pots will not contribute any metallic flavors. Aluminum pots usually won't cause metallic flavors unless the brewing water is alkaline with a pH level greater than 9. Shiny new aluminum pots will sometimes turn black when boiling water due to chlorine and carbonates in the water.
 
Dane said:
I've noticed that this problem has only occurred on the lighter beers. It's been either my blonde's or wit's. The hoppier darker beers always turn out great.

/QUOTE]

What is your ferm temps? It sounds like high ferm temps could be your problem...sometimes, people refer to off flavors as metallic when they are actually phenolic. At least its something to consider.

Beers with more hops and darker malts tend to have more flavors/aroma to hide behind in the finished product. The flavor you describe might be easily hid behind the vast hoppiness/maltiness of your darker brews..

I noticed you did not include your ferm temps. That might be your culprit
-jefe-
Click to expand...
 
1Mainebrew said:
here is a quote from Palmer's "How to Brew"

Metallic
Metallic flavors are usually caused by unprotected metals dissolving into the wort but can also be caused by the hydrolysis of lipids in poorly stored malts. Iron and aluminum can cause metallic flavors leaching into the wort during the boil. The small amount could be considered to be nutritional if it weren't for the bad taste. Nicks and cracks ceramic coated steel pots are a common cause as are high iron levels in well water. Stainless steel pots will not contribute any metallic flavors. Aluminum pots usually won't cause metallic flavors unless the brewing water is alkaline with a pH level greater than 9. Shiny new aluminum pots will sometimes turn black when boiling water due to chlorine and carbonates in the water.
Click to expand...

Yup, I read the book. The problem is that I have nothing that fits into any of these categories. :drunk:
 
JefeTheVol said:
What is your ferm temps? It sounds like high ferm temps could be your problem...sometimes, people refer to off flavors as metallic when they are actually phenolic. At least its something to consider.

Beers with more hops and darker malts tend to have more flavors/aroma to hide behind in the finished product. The flavor you describe might be easily hid behind the vast hoppiness/maltiness of your darker brews..

I noticed you did not include your ferm temps. That might be your culprit
-jefe-
Click to expand...

My ferm temps have been under 72deg. Usually around 68-70 for the "important" days. I do have a little variance in temps on hot days but I do water baths to try and minimize the changes. Over the course of a day the temos will go from 68 to 72 or so... could THAT be the issue?

common things in the 2 brews I've had like this:
Great Western 2-row and Vienna from same HBS (crushed at the HBS as well)
Half spring water/Half spigot water with camden tabs and 5.2 mash stabilizer
both had a water bath for carboy
both highly hoppy ales
both mash-in-a-bag brews
both had the flavor BEFORE bottling
both had spent about 3 weeks in the primary with dry hops for 10 days or so
ferm temps between 68-72



Sorry, not meaning to highjack the OPs thread, but I figured this insight may help other folks with the problem and without opening another thread.:mug:

I would LOVE an answer on this
 
If leftnin primary too long with all the sediment. It can create an off flavor. Also if your temp is fluctuating too much. How the lighting. Even the smallest light can cause skunk beer. What are you using for air lock?
 
Dane said:
OK, I'm absolutely fed up with this ongoing problem I've been having. I've dumped over 30 gallons and cannot find the source. My latest dumpage was a wit that had the same taste. I can only describe it as a bit tart, minerally, maybe metallic, it's just off, here are my conclusions.

1. Bad co2 or co2 lines: It's a new batch of co2 so.. Checked my lines, all clean, regulator is clean, taps, etc. However I brewed a stout that came out fine on the same co2

2. Abbrasive scrubbing of the keggle. I don't this this is highly likely, I've always scrubbed it out and had great beer

3. Bad storage of my grain but this last batch was fresh ground from Northern Brewer

4. Overcarbing the brew, but this batch is on day one at 15 psi and has that taste

5. The local water: I have a nice filter that has worked great but I moved to a different part of town and used RO water last, same taste.

6. Forgetting to purge the O2 out of the tank: I forget to do this often but when I do it never results in a consistent foul taste. I've forgotten to purge on many beers that turned out fine

7. Bad beer lines: I switched them all out, same

I've boiled down this problem to two options. One is not regulating my PH mash and sparge water, I never have. The other is forgetting to purge giving the brew an off flavor.

I've noticed that this problem has only occurred on the lighter beers. It's been either my blonde's or wit's. The hoppier darker beers always turn out great.

Man I'm stumped can anyone offer other idea's? I know this is a long thread and lots to read but this problem is really really pissing me off, especially watching my beer go down the drain over and over.
Click to expand...

Are you sure that the new batch of Co2 is food grade? I don't keg but I believe I read on here there is two kinds, one for beverage dispensing and one for something else?
 
Clann said:
Are you sure that the new batch of Co2 is food grade? I don't keg but I believe I read on here there is two kinds, one for beverage dispensing and one for something else?
Click to expand...

I don't know about that. I get mine from the welding supply store in town, and I know they fill other people's Co2 tanks used for beer because the first time I took it in, they asked if my beer was going flat, and I hadn't even mentioned what I used it for.

It may be worth it to try a different source though. Who knows.
 
I always get my Co2 from a welding supply store, and haven't had any off flavors from it.
 
Carb up a batch of seltzer water with your kegging system. A pretty cheap method to find off flavors and eliminate them from the equation. Obviously use the same water you brew with and the same treatment to it.
 
samc said:
Carb up a batch of seltzer water with your kegging system. A pretty cheap method to find off flavors and eliminate them from the equation. Obviously use the same water you brew with and the same treatment to it.
Click to expand...

+1

If you are still tasting off flavors after trying this, take apart your faucets and soak them in oxyclean. A buddy of mine showed me how to do this after noticing off flavors in my beers. Seems like you have covered everything else so this may be worth a shot.
 
Try using BEERSMITH SOFTWARE. if your doing any thing wrong it will let u know. Ec temp. Mash time. Sparge time and temp. Worth a check
 
HI,

So I am quite new to brewing, but I started a thread awhile back just like this. All by brews tasted similar a metallic/mineral flavor. I think I fixed it with the following, I bet this is your issue(s):

1) Was just using a smack pack (no starter) for the yeast.
2) Fermentation temps to high. I was at about 68-72 as you and was told that 65ish was better. I now use this: http://www.bayareamashers.org/gadgets/Dave's Cheap n Easy fermentation chiller.pdf

I let my metallic beer age out in the bottle (or keg) for another 3-4 weeks and it was much better not great but drinkable!

Try that IMO - someone correct me if I am wrong with anything.

I really hope this helps as I know the frustration this can cause, someone correct me if I am wrong.
 
One of the biggest problems is that your "metallic" taste and my "metallic" taste might not be the same? esters + yeast also goes to "metallicy" sometimes, IMO ( but thats just it ...my opinion?)
 
It's a long shot ,but how does the heating element in your RIMS unit look? I started getting a metallic taste about 4 or 5 batches before one of my heating elements went out.
 
Thanks for all the replies on my post, every bit helps in homebrewing. It's been sitting in the kegs for a couple of day's and the taste is not going away. I got my yeast from a local brewpub (may be the problem but it's a pro wyeast wit strain so...) I'm stumped. I would say it's a combination of water, mash temps, PH, and lighter kilned malts. Those lighter beers really give you no room for error. I just brewed a chocolate hazelnut porter on this same system and it is perfecto so back to the drawing board on those lighter beers.
 
Dont feel bad, bells octoberfest this year was more like a metallicfest.Same with summits octoberfest,whats up with those octoberfests and metal mayhem?
 

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