When to pitch second yeast?

I was wondering when to pitch the second yeast for say a barley wine (using an ale yeast and a champagne yeast)? Ive only found one place that even mentioned it and it said to pitch when the krausen subsides a bit. I dont know if this is right or not...and thoughts?

If you're talking about pitching extra yeast after a very extended aging time, most recipes I've seen say 3 days before bottling.

really?...i would have thought the second stage of fermentation due to the second pitch wouldnt be over in enough time to bottle?....maybe im wrong cause ive never done this before...and im not sure how much unfermentables will be left by the ale yeast...

also the recipe im doing calls for a 4 month age before bottling...im not sure what this does but its probably what youre talking about in terms of "extended aging." I tasted the wort before i put it into the carboy and DAMN it definately needed to mellow. It was WICKED sweet as well as over hoppy. This particular recipe used 2 oz. galena, 2 oz. willamette. and 2 oz. cascade....so im assuming its for the purposes of mellowing...?

the barleywine recipe i followed suggested pitching the champagne yeast after the ale yeast was almost stopped(1 or 2 bubbles per minute in the air lock)
the champagne yeast can live in a higher alcohol environment than most ale yeasts and so will continue the fermentation the ale yeast started

i brewed mine dec 10/05 at 1.102 and it is still in secondary today, down to about 1.022.
i am planning to bottle mid april as there are still bubbles on top and the airkock pops once a minute

chris workman said:

really?...i would have thought the second stage of fermentation due to the second pitch wouldnt be over in enough time to bottle?....maybe im wrong cause ive never done this before...and im not sure how much unfermentables will be left by the ale yeast...

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Adding the second batch of yeast in this context isn't to ferment much in the wort (that should have been done)...it's to setup a healthy batch of yeast for the bottle conditioning, i.e., improve carbonation. If you're kegging it's of no use or consequence (assuming forced carbonation).

chris - correct me if i misread your first post
but are you not asking when to add the champagne yeast to finish the ferment
after the ale yeast peters out?

i agree with the baron that after the long secondary you should add fresh yeast 3 days before bottling

Rod- the recipe says "champagne yeast added at the end of ale yeast fermentation...."so yes.
.... After the long long age process do the ale yeast initially used die (autolysis) requiring for a new yeast to be pitched that will allow the beer to become carbonated in the bottle? Please correct me if im wrong.


I initially though possibly the amount of alcohol produced from the first stage of fermentation would have been too much for the ale yeast (which would have required the champagne to finish the rest) but i think ive heard from some brewers can obtain quite high abv's using the ale yeast...so it makes sense but
I am still somewhat confused because i am hearing two things...1) pitch at the end of fermentation and 2) pitch at the end of the age process for bottle conditioning.....i mean it wont be fermenting actively for the amount of aging this particualy recipe suggests (4 months)..........

chris workman said:

Rod- yes to your question
.... After the long long age process does the ale yeast initially used die (autolysis) requiring for a new yeast to be pitched that will allow the beer to become carbonated in the bottle? Please correct me if im wrong.

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There will most likely be some yeast in suspension, but pitching extra will ensure that there's sufficient concentration of yeast per ml to easily carbonate. The most I've gone is 2 months in the secondary, didn't repitch, and carbonated fine. At 4 months I don't think you'll have any problems, but I don't really see it hurting to repitch, either.

ok. that makes a lot of sense to me now. So i think what im going to do is pitch the champagne tomorrow (if this thing is done shooting krausen out the blow out tube). now the question is...how much to pitch when bottling? should i rack it first though (and then let it sit for a few months)?

Personally, I'd see how far it will go on the ale yeast. The problem I see with champagne yeast is that it will ferment too far and result in a really dry brew (though I know many people use it with success). If you hit a good FG with the ale yeast, I'd leave it at that.

I would definitely rack off the primary if you're planning to let it sit for several months (or even several weeks more).

Just another batch of yeast should do the trick for bottling. Like I say, it may not even been totally necessary, but it won't hurt.

ok...actually i should have thought about checking the gravity before throwing the champagne in (if at all). Hahaha but i dont want it to be too sweet either! i guess i could taste it...but i dont know whatll happen over the ageing time.