Fermentation stopped at 1.044

I brewed up a Scotch Ale on 3/13/11. fermentation started that night and went strong for about 24hours before slowing.
On 3/16/11 fermentation seemed to stop all together gravity was at 1.042. 3/18/11 = 1.042
3/20/11 = 1.042.
3/23/11 I started a yeast starter of 4 cups water and 2 cups amber dry extract added yeast and it went fermented but never went crazy. no thick layer of foam on top.
3/26/11 i pitched this into my carboy. the first 2 days activity was slow. today it seems to have stopped again. Gravity is at 1.041 - 1.042. it does not seem to have changed much at all, not what i was looking for.
I never got a thick layer of anything on top just a thin covering in the first 24 hours. and now just some patches of bubbles. I used WLP028 (Edinburgh Ale Yeast).
Anyone have any ideas why it stopped fermenting. How to save it. Or if it will explode if i just bottle it up?
Thanks!

What was the OG? What temp was the wort when you pitched? What is the fermenters temp now?

Sorry forgot to post that SG was 1.068 temp was 74. It is now 70 degrees. at one point it got down to 65 in my house but that was between 3/20 and 3/23 at which point it had already stopped fermenting. I am not sure if i aerated it enough as i did not "rock the baby" as much as i usually would.

Have there been any temp spikes or drops since the 13th?

How are you measuring your gravity?

Triple scale hydrometer.

boyleia1 said:

Or if it will explode if i just bottle it up?

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Bottle it and then send it to this guy:

Is it, the hydrometer, still reading zero in distilled water? That gravity is REALLY high. I had a stuck ferment once, but it still fermented more than that. We're talking 1.095 down to 1.040 range.

just tested the hydrometer in distilled water @ 66 degrees. reads 1.000.

Shooter said:

Is it, the hydrometer, still reading zero in distilled water? That gravity is REALLY high. I had a stuck ferment once, but it still fermented more than that. We're talking 1.095 down to 1.040 range.

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That is why i am so confused. none of it makes sense. and my yeast starter failed.

It sounds like you've tried several things. I tried raising the temperature and stirring and that didn't help me. I also tried adding about 3oz of dextrose, some yeast nutrient and stirring and couldn't get anything to happen, but you should still have a fair amount of sugar in that wort.

Shooter said:

It sounds like you've tried several things. I tried raising the temperature and stirring and that didn't help me. I also tried adding about 3oz of dextrose, some yeast nutrient and stirring and couldn't get anything to happen, but you should still have a fair amount of sugar in that wort.

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did you ever figgure it out? or were you left with a scraped beer?


Anyone else have any experience with this sort of situation?

i've had one "stuck" fermentation in my life and that was/is on a lambic and i considered stuck at 66% attenuation and pitched brett (which i was doing anyway)... never had a stuck ferm like this... something is amiss... using occam's razor, i'd assume something was wrong with the yeast. seems most likely. curious about updates.

Was this extract, or did you mash the grain? If extract, it seems like you have a couple batches of dead/mediocre yeast.

I had a huge stout crap out in the 1.04's (from 1.100ish) - I mashed ten degrees higher than I wanted, and the grist had lots of specialty malts. The beer was good for a sip or two, but so cloyingly sweet that I wound up cutting it with a can of BMC for each pint just to get through the keg.

My advice, assuming you didn't make the same mistake I did, would be to get a pack of US-05, pour it in, and keep your temp at 65*F.

boyleia1 said:

did you ever figgure it out? or were you left with a scraped beer?


Anyone else have any experience with this sort of situation?

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Well, the next step for me would have been to hit it with a starter at high krausen, but, funny you should ask, this beer is actually still in my fermentation fridge and taking up valuable space. So, I decided to see what amylase enzyme would do.

There's so much dispute/misunderstanding of amylase versus Beano that I decided to give it a try and see for myself what would happen. I stirred in about half a teaspoon of the stuff and checked it a couple of days later and it was down another five or six points. I'm going to check it again tomorrow and see where it stands. If it's down another five points or so and it stays there, I'm going to call it good. If not, well we'll go from there, but I'm brewing on Saturday and will need that space one way or another.

pernox said:

Was this extract, or did you mash the grain? If extract, it seems like you have a couple batches of dead/mediocre yeast.

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it was all grain 4.5 lb of which were specialty malts.

boyleia1 said:

it was all grain 4.5 lb of which were specialty malts.

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What was the recipe and mash temp? Is your thermometer calibrated properly?

There might be trouble.

boyleia1 said:

it was all grain 4.5 lb of which were specialty malts.

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If your OG was 1.068, then that sounds like about 35-40% of the grist was specialty malt which is extremely high. That sounds like the source of your problem...your not going to get much in the way of fermentables with most specialty malts. If you mashed high (> 156F), than that will just compound your problem.

Amalyse enzyme is your only hope at this point...more yeast is just wasting yeast. Even then you might not get down to a low FG. I would adjust the recipe and re-brew.

boyleia1 said:

it was all grain 4.5 lb of which were specialty malts.

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You really need to give the exact malt bill if you are still looking for an answer as to why the FG was so high. Some people consider Munich, Vienna, Rye, Wheat, etc., to be specialty - that is incorrect. IIRC, even character malts like Victory and Biscuit have a descent level of fermentability. On the other hand, if you were using 4.5 pounds of crystal and roasted malts.....you've got a serious recipe problem.

Do yourself a favor and post the entire malt bill; it is your only real hope of getting a diagnosis. If you mashed at 165F, you knew you were in some trouble, but I have seen a lot of people set themselves up for failure by putting together a malt bill with practically zero diastatic power, and then wondered why the wort didn't ferment.

Please volunteer the recipe, and it may save you from a future head ache.

Joe

jfowler1 said:

Do yourself a favor and post the entire malt bill; it is your only real hope of getting a diagnosis. If you mashed at 165F, you knew you were in some trouble, but I have seen a lot of people set themselves up for failure by putting together a malt bill with practically zero diastatic power, and then wondered why the wort didn't ferment.

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Yep, might be good to see the malt bill on this one.

I'm in a similar situation (posted in the beginner's forum) I made a scaldis clone(extract) with an OG of 1.12 and it has stalled around 1.06 (FG supposed to be 1.02).... tried stirring and adding rehydrated Nottingham but I haven't seen any change yet.

I'm about to try adding a notty/champagine yeast starter at high krausen to see if that does anything.

Keep me posted on your success... I'm curious about trying amylase too

jfowler1 said:

Please volunteer the recipe, and it may save you from a future head ache.

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I will post it up this evening when i get home from work. There was 15lb of 2-row pale and 5 different "specialty" (but maybe not) malts i will list them when i get home as i dont remember all of them off the top of my head.

jfowler1 said:

....you've got a serious recipe problem.


I have seen a lot of people set themselves up for failure by putting together a malt bill with practically zero diastatic power, and then wondered why the wort didn't ferment.

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This may be true

"I have seen a lot of people set themselves up for failure by putting together a malt bill with practically zero diastatic power, and then wondered why the wort didn't ferment."

I think you can rule out diastatic power as your problem. 15 lbs of 2 row is more than enough. The recipe I was eluding to was a Porter that had nothing but Munich, Brown Malt, Crystal, and Roasted grains. The fermentation went no where, as almost nothing converted during the mash. Munich was the only grain with a chance, and it usually needs a bit of help from Pilsner or 2-row.

Still, you will benefit greatly by posting your recipe and any notes you kept from the process. I'll continue to follow the thread.

Joe

boyleia1 said:

3/23/11 I started a yeast starter of 4 cups water and 2 cups amber dry extract added yeast and it went fermented but never went crazy. no thick layer of foam on top.

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4 cups of water is a little less than a liter. 2 cups of DME is like 260+ grams. Usually, it's 1 gram per 10 ml of water, so your starter gravity was more than double the recommended.

My math might be off, but that sounds like a 1.100+ starter.

BrewThruYou said:

4 cups of water is a little less than a liter. 2 cups of DME is like 260+ grams. Usually, it's 1 gram per 10 ml of water, so your starter gravity was more than double the recommended.

My math might be off, but that sounds like a 1.100+ starter.

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I mistakenly forgot to take the gravity of my starter, I think your estimate is on the high end but still within reason... this is what i got:

4 cups water = 1/4 gal.
i used 9.5oz of DME (bought 1lb and have 6.5oz remaining.)
9.5 oz = about 0.6lb (0.594)

According to the brew masters bible DME will yield 1.035-1.045 S.G. per LB per Gal.

So i get a range of 1.084-1.108... I have never done a yeast starter before and am not sure what the SG should be. that was the recipe i found from a google search... (probably should have looked it up on here)

jfowler1 said:

Still, you will benefit greatly by posting your recipe and any notes you kept from the process. I'll continue to follow the thread.

Joe

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Grain bill:
15lb Pale 2-row
1lb Crystal L60
1lb Bisket malt
1lb Crystal L20
1lb Durst Smoked Malt
1/2 lb Black patent malt

Process:

boil water.
add grain.
hold mash @158 degrees for 110min
Sperge 5gal of wort out of mash with 160-180 degree water.
Boil 60min.
add hops with 45min, 20min, and 15min remaining.
Add Irish moss with 15min remaining.
cool to 75 degree
transfer to carboy while screening.
take gravity 1.068.
Pitch yeast.
Aerate. (i skimped on this, I swirled in carboy for about a min rather than picking the entire thing up and shaking it like i usually do).

you know the rest of the story.

That is a high mash temp and with those figures that would put your efficiency at around 48%. Honestly most of those grains are pretty fermentable it might have been the high mash temp that gave you a fairly dextronous wort. Hence having trouble fermenting it out. Even at that high of a mash temperature though I would think you would get it down lower then that. If you want to try something maybe try throwing like 2 or 3 packs of dry yeast in there. If that does not ferment it nothing will.

boyleia1,

Thanks for posting that. It is a huge help.

I think that in almost all cases of poor fermentability, you have three culprits.
1. Recipe
2. Mash Temp
3. Yeast Health

1. Recipe
Honestly, it looks good. 2 row, biscuit, and smoked malt are all fermentable. As another poster noted, you efficiency could improve, but that does not seem to be the root problem here (but certainly something to work on). 2 pounds of crystal is a lot, but it would not be enough to get stuck above 1.040. The Brown Shugga clone is just shy of 2 lbs of crystal, and finishes around 1.022.

2. Mash temp
You said something that concerned me. "Boil, add grain". If you boiled, in the above 212 degree sense of the word, you mashed way too hot. I know you mentioned mash at 158 for 110 minutes (which is about 50-60 minutes more than you need at such a high temp - 90 minutes is a good idea with a low mash ~148) but there is no way that boiling water + grain = 158. It is usually more like 175 water + grain = 158. So maybe there is a thermometer problem, or a poorly stirred mash...something to work on next time. Would you perhaps be mashing on a stovetop or right on a burner, with the heat source still on?

3. Yeast health. You probably have been made aware that a starter needs to be 1.040. Use metric and weight (not volume measurements) to figure this out next time. For every 10 ml of water, add 1 gram of light DME. So, 1000 ml (1 Liter) starter gets 100 grams of light DME. Your 1.100 Barleywine starter may have doomed the yeast, or at least, didn't do anything to help them. Oxygen and aeration are insanely important to a good fermentation, but I think you have a couple other hurdles to work out before getting wrapped up in aeration. Baby Steps.

So, keep the same grain bill, and next time work on hitting your mash number. There are free calculators or purchasable software to help you with that calculation. Also, take another try at a starter, 10:1 (water to DME). If liquid yeast and starters seem like too much to deal with, you might have great success rehydrating a pack of dry yeast in 100F pre-boiled water and pitching that.

Hope you have better luck on the next batch, and feel free to ask any follow up questions.

Joe

Wow, we really didn't catch that tarter issue for a while, huh?

Here's a quick video on simple steps on how to correctly do a yeast starter:

Give that a view and see if your process is far off what Northern Brewer recommends.

jfowler1 Thanks for the advise. it really helps that you explained everything a bit rather then just saying "you did this wrong" I appreciate that and am always happy to learn from my mistakes. (so long as i know what they are).


barrooze - Thanks for the video. That would have been great the first time through rather then yahoo answers which gave me the 2 cup water 1 cup extract recipe (which i doubled).

Thanks everyone for the advise and input i hope anyone else with this problem can learn from my mistake.

I am going to pitch some dry yeast this in the next couple days and see if that helps. I will post the results in a couple days.

barrooze said:

Wow, we really didn't catch that tarter issue for a while, huh?

Here's a quick video on simple steps on how to correctly do a yeast starter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znZtE9fcLnE

Give that a view and see if your process is far off what Northern Brewer recommends.

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No, no, no, there's a much better method here!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/has-anyone-seen-234201/

Shooter said:

No, no, no, there's a much better method here!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/has-anyone-seen-234201/

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AHH!! I was afraid he'd see this video and follow the directions! Watch it for ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY!! :fro:

Don't forget, when preparing the dry yeast for repitching, rehydrate it. An easy way to do it is as follows:
- boil a cup of water (use tap water, not RO or distilled)
- pour boiled water into a sanitized container (I use a measuring cup)
- cover container with sanitized foil or saran wrap and cool (either in a small ice bath or in the fridge)
- when the water is between 90 & 100 degrees F, open yeast pack and pour into warm water. DO NOT STIR. Just leave the yeasties be.
- re-cover container
- After 15 minutes of leaving the yeast alone, take off cover and stir the yeast up into a slurry
- pour entire slurry into beer

I'm sure other people have other methods of rehydrating dry yeast, but I've had great success with this method. Good luck!

BARROOZE,

Perfect instructions for dry yeast. Good post. I want to piggy back and mention that the closer the water is to 105 F, the better off you are. Despite conventional thinking, as the water cools, the environment is actuallly less hospitable for the yeast to rehydrate. The scale is pretty linear, and as you approach 60F, you can actually be losing about 60% of your viable yeast. Also, the 105 F liquid has to be water only (no sugar/ starter wort). Until the yeast is hydrated, it has no ability to control what passes through its cell walls. If sugar rushes in first, it will basically cripple the yeast cell.

I found an awesome Q&A with Dr. Clayton Cone of Lallemand (Danstar) addressing a lot of the myths that riddle this board.

http://koehlerbeer.com/2008/06/07/rehydrating-dry-yeast-with-dr-clayton-cone/

Homebrew instructions for dry yeast are an insult. Yes, you can pitch the yeast directly to the wort, and it will work, but it is just due to sheer volume of cells. You will be doing yourself a favor to rehydrate in warm water (as commercial instructions state) and pitch at close to 100% viability, rather than pitch dry at 40% viability. "But it will work anyway" is crappy advice.

Joe

boyleia1 said:

barrooze - Thanks for the video. That would have been great the first time through rather then yahoo answers which gave me the 2 cup water 1 cup extract recipe (which i doubled).

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billy brew has a good instruction and video too: http://billybrew.com/how-to-make-a-yeast-starter

I like his because it has a video as well as a step-by-step list. When I first started doing starters (not that long ago), I watched the video and then printed our his instructions.

Yea, any of these methods done by reputable sources are fine. Follow whichever you'll be able to replicate time and time again. Be sure to go to the Mr Malty Pitching Rate
Calculator to determine the volume of starter wort needed for that brew, and then create the starter wort following one of the above methods, using he ratio of 100g DME for every 1000mL of tap water.
Looking back at your OP, the yeast were so tired and overworked from your huge starter, it's no wonder they couldn't ferment your long-stringed wort (high mash temps yield more long string dextrines which are less fermentable or harder to ferment).

barrooze said:

Yea, any of these methods done by reputable sources are fine. Follow whichever you'll be able to replicate time and time again. Be sure to go to the Mr Malty Pitching Rate
Calculator to determine the volume of starter wort needed for that brew, and then create the starter wort following one of the above methods, using he ratio of 100g DME for every 1000mL of tap water.
Looking back at your OP, the yeast were so tired and overworked from your huge starter, it's no wonder they couldn't ferment your long-stringed wort (high mash temps yield more long string dextrines which are less fermentable or harder to ferment).

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What would you recommend? Pitching in dry yeast or trying another yeast starter (done right this time)? If i did another yeast starter could i use the yeast "gunk" from the bottom of my carboy?

For this batch, just pitch a rehydrated pack of dry yeast. Maybe use Danstar Nottingham since you used a Scottish strain the first time.

For future batches, when you do a yeast starter, the key is to pitch the proper amount of yeast. That differs from beer to beer. The Mr Malty calculator can help you determine how much starter is required to get the right amount of yeast.

I highly recommend listening to the Brew Strong show that covered yeast starters on The Brewing Network. Yeast starters are really great if you know what you're doing. If not, well, I think you found out what could happen.

Cheers!

pitched some dry yeast tonight after work. air lock blew a bubble about 35min after adding yeast. There is hope! we will see what happens. Hopefully it does not fizzle out after 48 hours like it has the past 2 pitches. I will update in a couple days! Thanks again to everyone who gave advise, input, and disclosed knowledge to help me.

What temp are you keeping the fermenter at now? Try to keep ambient temp changes to a minimum.