Brewtroller, not impressed. Need advice.

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Cryptochronolite

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My 323rd brewday was this past Sunday. It was the 5th brew I've done using my brewtroller. I'd like to hear some responses before I go on my rant, so let me ask some questions to you guys:

Questions:

Do you use brewtroller? Why?

What features? Volume? Temp? Timers? Logging?

How long have you been using it?

Have you found it to be reliable?

Have you been able to automate your brewday any? Are your brewdays shorter now with brewtroller?

I'd like to hear about brewtroller problems people are experiencing.
I'm seriously considering a BCS system, is it better? worse?
 
Simply put, the BCS was an easy to set up for basic brewing right out of the box. The other one seemed like it required a lot more work to get it going. So from that point of view the BCS won me over. Don't know how it is in 2011 !
 
I don't have a Brewtroller, but I've spent 100's of hours playing with the Arduino PID library. I believe it is the same PID library used by the Brewtroller.

Are you using the PID feature? How is it working for you?

I had a hell of a time getting it to work correctly. I worked with the library author a little on my issue and have it working well now. If you don't have the PID parameters tuned correctly you are just wasting time. Believe me, I wasted countless hours until I was able to clear up some units and conversion quirks with the PID library author. I now have a tuning method figured out that will correctly calculate the PID parameters. Let me know if you are interested.
 
Here's some pics from earlier this month, it's not much different now, just been through 5 brews. Those pics were right before the first water run. Those are tri-clamp Brewhemoths in the background.

Pilot Brewery, Google Pics album

The automation I want beyond on/off control takes the form of questions:

  1. Will it make better beer?
  2. Will it decrease my brew time?
  3. Will it make more consistent beer?

When I ask those questions about Brewtroller, I am unsure of my answers. I'd like to improve my confidence, given my investment thus far.

It seems that at least I should be spot on with Question 3 and that the Brewtroller will help me make more consistent beer.

I hate it when I nail a recipe and am unable to reproduce the delicious results.
 
Are you using the PID feature? How is it working for you?

I am not manually adjusting the PID parameters, as it seems to heat well, with a small overshoot (~0.4ºC) and remain stable within a degree.

It's a 30 Gallon HLT. It takes about 1.5 to 2 hours to heat from 15.5ºC (from the hose) to 78ºC (slightly hotter than strike temp).

If you don't have the PID parameters tuned correctly you are just wasting time.

Should it be faster than that? Am I wasting (propane) fuel?


Let me know if you are interested.

I am interested.
 
Hey Cryptochronolite

Has the BT been acting up on you? or is this just a consistency issue between batches?

You are always welcome to give us a call at the oscsys.com store if you need help setting something up or if you are having an issue with one of our boards.
 
I have a Brewtroller; I monitor temps in 7 locations, use PID control to heat RIMs, HLT, and BK. I haven't had any real issues with mine. I have about 10 batches on mine. I have an all electric 50 amp system and it heats water incredibly fast. My brewday has definately been shortened, although its a combination of things; plate chiller, heating elements, pumps, brewtroller control, etc. I really like my system. You need to give us some more info regarding your system and problems. Have you been on the BrewTroller forum and expressed your issues there?
 
jcdillin said:
Hey Cryptochronolite

Has the BT been acting up on you? or is this just a consistency issue between batches?

No, it's been working. It's just that it is flaky. I wanted to make sure I'm doing it right, before I contacted you guys. This was the preliminary support path, I suppose.

So the Brewtroller appears to be mostly functional. Here's the issues I'm seeing:

I get gas valve chatter on my mash tun sometimes near finishing temps. (not the other burners). I lose the Brewtroller sometimes when the pumps fire simultaneously and the timers and state are all lost. (Brewtroller needs a RTC, badly). Logging math is inconsistent with display math, but i consider the logging capability essentially non-existent, just waiting for btnic replacement). I lose calibration for volume sensing, or it's inconsistent between brews. The alarm function is hit or miss, sometimes it just doesn't fire the alarm. The Vonnieda PID display needs a (better) channel selection function. And the Celsius math on a lot of routines needs worked on. I've fried a fistful of ULN2003s, and I have trouble getting the Brewtroller to "see" some of the DS temp sensors, sometimes (fixed by plugging/unplugging them). The UI is inconsistent (sometimes selections default to CONTINUE sometimes EXIT sometimes the next logical command is on top of the menu, sometimes it's all the way down. Adjusting temps and valves on the fly is just simply foolish. I don't know, I feel like it would take a lot of work to get this thing easy to use. While I'm ranting to someone that cares, I'll just throw in that the Brewtroller website is pathetic, too (not the oscsys website) All the important pages are often half-finished placeholders that are out of date or wrong. Show me how to navigate to a wiring diagram or a parts list. Show me a schematic for pressure sensors or show me any relevant procedures or howtos. That website is three years of junk pages all hobbled together and is the primary reason I'm here. I would love to say I will volunteer to clean it all up, but I've spent the months getting it running. It's now my own personal badge of pride.

The most frustrating thing is all the work that has been put into the project. I see tons of updates and releases and excellent response from guys like you. I see the plan and progress and all that.
It's frustrating that I simply don't have a system that I can trust to stay running through my brew day and finish my beer.


I honestly don't want to "work" on my brew-stand, I want it to brew beer. I have (the better part of) an electrical engineering degree, I've written thousands of lines of arduino code, so I "feel" like I know what I'm doing, I just don't feel like it's simple enough to be reliable. I'm sure I'm just doing things wrong, so I'm reaching out to people that brew with the Brewtroller to see what their tips are.

So, I'm not throwing it out, I'm (obviously) willing to work on it. Just having a hard time knowing where to start to clean up the issues.

Right now, I have a 12 hour double brew-day. I'd like to get that to six, I'll take eight. (it was seven before I "automated").

I'm planning on working out the non electronic hardware bugs my next brew day and then I want to start video taping my brews and finding efficiency steps that can be improved upon.
 
That's fine, I just wanted to make sure it wasn't a request that we missed.

Would it be possible to get either an order number or just a list of the hardware you have so I can better go through it in my head and also what release and build of the firmware are you using?



No, it's been working. It's just that it is flaky. I wanted to make sure I'm doing it right, before I contacted you guys. This was the preliminary support path, I suppose.

So the Brewtroller appears to be mostly functional. Here's the issues I'm seeing:

I get gas valve chatter on my mash tun sometimes near finishing temps. (not the other burners). I lose the Brewtroller sometimes when the pumps fire simultaneously and the timers and state are all lost. (Brewtroller needs a RTC, badly). Logging math is inconsistent with display math, but i consider the logging capability essentially non-existent, just waiting for btnic replacement). I lose calibration for volume sensing, or it's inconsistent between brews. The alarm function is hit or miss, sometimes it just doesn't fire the alarm. The Vonnieda PID display needs a (better) channel selection function. And the Celsius math on a lot of routines needs worked on. I've fried a fistful of ULN2003s, and I have trouble getting the Brewtroller to "see" some of the DS temp sensors, sometimes (fixed by plugging/unplugging them). The UI is inconsistent (sometimes selections default to CONTINUE sometimes EXIT sometimes the next logical command is on top of the menu, sometimes it's all the way down. Adjusting temps and valves on the fly is just simply foolish. I don't know, I feel like it would take a lot of work to get this thing easy to use. While I'm ranting to someone that cares, I'll just throw in that the Brewtroller website is pathetic, too (not the oscsys website) All the important pages are often half-finished placeholders that are out of date or wrong. Show me how to navigate to a wiring diagram or a parts list. Show me a schematic for pressure sensors or show me any relevant procedures or howtos. That website is three years of junk pages all hobbled together and is the primary reason I'm here. I would love to say I will volunteer to clean it all up, but I've spent the months getting it running. It's now my own personal badge of pride.

The most frustrating thing is all the work that has been put into the project. I see tons of updates and releases and excellent response from guys like you. I see the plan and progress and all that.
It's frustrating that I simply don't have a system that I can trust to stay running through my brew day and finish my beer.


I honestly don't want to "work" on my brew-stand, I want it to brew beer. I have (the better part of) an electrical engineering degree, I've written thousands of lines of arduino code, so I "feel" like I know what I'm doing, I just don't feel like it's simple enough to be reliable. I'm sure I'm just doing things wrong, so I'm reaching out to people that brew with the Brewtroller to see what their tips are.

So, I'm not throwing it out, I'm (obviously) willing to work on it. Just having a hard time knowing where to start to clean up the issues.

Right now, I have a 12 hour double brew-day. I'd like to get that to six, I'll take eight. (it was seven before I "automated").

I'm planning on working out the non electronic hardware bugs my next brew day and then I want to start video taping my brews and finding efficiency steps that can be improved upon.
 
You need to give us some more info regarding your system and problems. Have you been on the BrewTroller forum and expressed your issues there?

I haven't yet consulted with the brewtroller forum. I wanted to hear from brewers first, then the robot nerds second. I feel like there's a more pragmatic view of it's usage here than on there. Just want a neutral ground to discuss, you know?



Would it be possible to get either an order number or just a list of the hardware you have so I can better go through it in my head and also what release and build of the firmware are you using?

Orders #: 145, 423, 521, 579, 638, 647, and 649. The current configuration is a BrewTroller 4.0 Pro, Build 763. I have brewtroller-ish code on an arduino, and on a BrewTroller 3.3-1284P (that I hand built, so I don't trust it much). I am using volume sensing, and a couple of valve profiles. Volume sensors report zero in the current release (763) and it blew a ULN2003 during one of the valve chattering fits it has right around 75ºC.


There's lots of things that can go wrong that aren't in oscsys' control, so I'm not blaming you guys. I am really just looking to get myself brewing without working on my brewstand.
 
Oh sure, robot nerd eh?

I'm right there with you, just keepin it real.



And for your heat outputs your using On/Off or PID?

I am not sure. I presume it's using on/off, but I didn't change it. Could that be causing the relay chatter? Where in the sketchbook is it set?

I do have a feed forward temp sensor enabled on AUX 1 reading the output from the RIMS not currently connected, because the thing reads ridiculous temps (±40ºC - I've even changed sensors and assignment--AUX 2, 3 etc, but that doesn't help.)
 
Now that I know you are friends with Rob, it helps me understand your system a bit (from conversations with him). I'm guessing you're having issues with volume control because you're not using a bubbler system.
 
If you don't have the PID parameters tuned correctly you are just wasting time.
I was referring more to wasting time tying to tune it manually or trying to brew with a system that's unstable and not tuned.

Should it be faster than that? Am I wasting (propane) fuel?
I'm not sure how much time a typical 30 gal system takes. You can always run a test by running the burner full blast from 15.5ºC to 78ºC without control and see how long it takes. Running it full blast without control will overshoot, but it gives you an idea of how fast it could be as a goal. If it can get to temp in an hour, a properly tuned system could save you some time. You're not wasting propane, just time getting to to temp. If it still takes 1.5 hours without control, you're not going to get to temps any faster with PID.

I am interested.
I'll work on putting together an overview of my notes and method for calculating correct PID parameters.
 
Well, I have a fish-tank pump installed, and the volumes (before the last round of changes I made) worked, but would not stay calibrated. But since I put 763 on there, I haven't been able to get them to read anything but zeros.

I've got the fish-tank pump setup to three gang valves with tee's to each sensor. The to-the-tank tubes are disconnected now and are staying that way till I get deflection in the brewtroller. I am planning on checking them tonight with a volt meter and I'll see if I didn't inadvertently blow three volume sensors all at once.
 
Looks like it is the limitations of the Arduino platform, not sure if the BCS would be an improvement as both are limited capability platforms. How much automation is required for the brewday?, basic temperature control, or automated brewing control from recipe to fermenter with most activities hands off.
 
I'm not sure how much time a typical 30 gal system takes. You can always run a test by running the burner full blast from 15.5ºC to 78ºC without control and see how long it takes. Running it full blast without control will overshoot, but it gives you an idea of how fast it could be as a goal. If it can get to temp in an hour, a properly tuned system could save you some time. You're not wasting propane, just time getting to to temp. If it still takes 1.5 hours without control, you're not going to get to temps any faster with PID.

Yeah, I run the boil kettle with full on. I know heating beer is a lot different than heating water, but it seems to take about the same amount of time, so maybe the defaults in the code are fine.

The valve chatter is what worries me the most.
 
How much automation is required for the brewday?, basic temperature control, or automated brewing control from recipe to fermenter with most activities hands off.

I am hoping to automate all the steps that make sense. Things like filling and heating the hlt, accurate volumes to the mash-tun, automatic start of the mash ramps (mostly just auto mash-out) through the rims, auto-sparge, auto-boil and auto-additions would all be really nice to have, but not my focus right now.

I really just want the temps, timers and alarms to be reliable before I move on to any of that other stuff.


BrewTroller users, are you using backup equipment or do you trust your temps and timers?
 
Here's a pic of the pressure sensors.

image-62413816.jpg
 
I am not sure where the Brewtroller programming is at these days, but there are a number of calculations that need to be done to get to liquid management for brewing and a fair amount of brew ingredient information is needed. An instant water heater would be a way to dramatically reduce brew day time as waiting for water heating would not be the hold up.
I have designed and built a nearly totally automated system that is much more complex than other brewing systems and uses unique heating methods. It has taken quite a few hours to develop and test the recipe and control application software that makes it work, which has reached a point where recipe generation is coupled to the control application for easy operation. It was built as a 10 gallon size system to see what was possible with hardware and software to automate the brewing process, and would be to expensive to build for a hobby system.
 
The brewtroller gets it right. It's just my wiring of the brewtroller that isn't reliable. I need to figure out why it reboots with certain valve profiles, I need to figure out why I have a chattering valve, and why I get 0 readings on all my volume sensors, and why I have weird ±40ºC math in my Mash-Tun temp readings. ffffffffuuuunny thing is that brewtroller can do all this, I've seen it and I want more of it, but I really need to get time and temperature correct first.

Any tips on wiring and circuit noise isolation would be greatly appreciated.


I have designed and built a nearly totally automated system that is much more complex than other brewing systems and uses unique heating methods. It has taken quite a few hours to develop and test the recipe and control application software that makes it work, which has reached a point where recipe generation is coupled to the control application for easy operation. It was built as a 10 gallon size system to see what was possible with hardware and software to automate the brewing process, and would be to expensive to build for a hobby system.

I hate to be a dolt, but your gallery pics of what appears to be this system are teensy tiny. Any information about it (threads or whatnot) would probably make me cry a bit inside from the massive broner I would have. That sounds incredible. I'd love to see more.
 
Here is a link to the older system picture taken during construction https://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/CoolingSystem#5248653726957372914, and one with touch screen running https://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/Panels#5339967138764297570. Here is a link to the application screens used for runtime access to brewing system https://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/OneTouchProgramGraphics. The latest iteration of the equipment eliminated the water storage keg behind the mash and boil kettles, strike water is measured directly in mash tun, then malt added. I work in the industrial instrumentation field so the hardware and construction was the easy part, the programming skills were self taught, first Java then C# when the Java application was reworked to escape some of the Java graphics bugs. A conservative estimate of time spent in programming is 20-30 hours a week since late 2008 when the Java effort was started. With the ability to simulate system operation in the application I can test and tune offline then implement the latest build when home on R&R run.
 
One thing that is very important, make sure your not using PID on any of your gas valve heat outputs, because the chatter could be the PID trying to ramp down as it approaches your temp. It could cause some major issues if it's trying to PID a mechanical relay and gas solenoid.

Also as far as your pressure sensors go, there are a few tests we can do, if you want we can go over it on the phone some time or we can do it here. Whichever is easier for you.
 
Brewday was about 3 hours from pour malt in hopper, connect fermenter, and add hops in last hour, the rest of the time is unattended. Dough in is about 6 minutes from cold start,60 minute mash cycle with up to 3 steps, 45 minute sparge, boil start is at end of sparge, 1 hour boil, 10 minute chill and O2 injection.
 
Kladue, very impressive.

Jcdillan, I'm not sure where to set the pid/on off in the code. All my valves are operated by relay, and have only opened or closed states.


Asco redhats:

image-3826053014.jpg



Some no name 12v jobs and some no name eBay "water valves".

image-2410380731.jpg


Only the one redhat chatters. All other valves are fine.
 
One thing that is very important, make sure your not using PID on any of your gas valve heat outputs, because the chatter could be the PID trying to ramp down as it approaches your temp. It could cause some major issues if it's trying to PID a mechanical relay and gas solenoid.

What major issues? I know you don't want to cycle a gas solenoid excessively, but worst case scenario is it wares out and stops working. My valve is a Normally Closed gas valve, so if it breaks, it should close as a safety precaution. It's controlled with an SSR. How many cycles per minute would be bad?
 
Jeremiah stated that issues arise with mechanical relays, which are most often used with device with infrequent cycle times, i.e. solenoid valves. If a mechanical relay is treated like a solid state relay you will have problems. At the very least it will be fried in short order, it could also cause nuisances if the PID is turning it on and of frequently but not enough the blow it up.
 
Yeah, it's definitely not a good idea to let the valve run chattering. The mechanical springs fail first, some kind of spring fatigue I guess. The coils can burn-up too, but I don't think that's a problem on the ascos. They promise some kind-of gadzillion actions from their coils.
 
That's good to hear. I have a Asco Redhat as well. I'm going to try to keep the chatter to a minimum, but using an Asco and an SSR I think I'll be fine.
 

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