Ok guys, I think I have a problem with "off flavors"...

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darkestdays

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Hey everyone,

My extract beers have had an almost astringent aftertaste to them, but its been hard to place a finger on. Some are worse than others, and sometimes its barely noticeable, but it has been getting better.

It is usually something I do not notice until I take a chug of my beer and have a little burp come up. Something that shouldn't be there...

I would be happy to completely eliminate this problem though. Here is a list of things that I know I am doing correctly...

I am steeping the specialty grains at around 160 deg (give or take a couple). I have an electric stove. They do sometimes touch the bottom of the pot, and I do sparge them with water.

There is a ring on the bottom of the pot after boiling my wort, but I try to scrub it clean each time before use . I stir my wort regularly with the lid off.

I am adding my ingredients at the right time. I feel like I am cooling my wort in a reasonable time frame.

My fermentation temps seem to be alright. I do mostly ales at around 65 to 72 degrees. Fermentation seems to take effect in a reasonable time frame.

Bottles are sanitized in the dish washer with no soap. They are washed in dish soap and rinsed before going in with labels removed. I bottle right out of the dishwasher. I make sure there are no smells or particles in them before washing.

I use sanitized equipment...

I usually use spring water from kmart, natural spring water from a town away, or boiled city water from the tap. All have had the same results..

The only things that I can think of are that I'm messing up my steeping process with the specialty grains, or that I am oxidizing my beer somehow. Any help will be appreciated, and I will try to answer any questions. Thanks in advance!
 
dont wash with dish soap. If the bottle looks clean, no residue, then a sanitizing agent will get the job done.

Why do you think steeping is the problem?

NEVER use a lid when boiling wort, that may be the problem. As wort evaporates it releases DMS, look it up, you do not want this in your wort
 
If you're using an aluminum pot and scrubbing the layer of oxididized aluminum off you could be picking up a "twang" from that. If you think that your steep is the problem, try a different method. I mix up pre-heated water and my grain at about 1.5 qt./lb in a smaller stockpot and let that sit for 30-60 minutes covered with a couple of towels. Then I pour it through a large strainer and pour 170 degree water through it into the main brewpot and proceed from there.
 
dont wash with dish soap. If the bottle looks clean, no residue, then a sanitizing agent will get the job done.

Why do you think steeping is the problem?

NEVER use a lid when boiling wort, that may be the problem. As wort evaporates it releases DMS, look it up, you do not want this in your wort

I usually soak the bottles in dish soap, rinse them out well, and then put them through the dishwasher, but I will try using just the sanitizer next time.

I don't know if steeping is the problem, but I didn't know if the off flavor was from tannins released from the grains.

I have had the lid on a few times, but not for the whole boil. I'll make sure to leave it off from now on. Thanks for the advice!
 
I'm going to guess you sanitize with bleach and you're tasting chlorophenols. The burp thing is a ringer.

Hmm.. You may be right. I do sanitize my primary with a bleach soak before each use, but I make sure to rinse it out quite a few times with HOT water, and I smell it to make sure there is no bleach smell.

Do you think that small amounts of bleach may be getting into the beer? Should I just use strictly sanitizing solution?
 
If you're using an aluminum pot and scrubbing the layer of oxididized aluminum off you could be picking up a "twang" from that. If you think that your steep is the problem, try a different method. I mix up pre-heated water and my grain at about 1.5 qt./lb in a smaller stockpot and let that sit for 30-60 minutes covered with a couple of towels. Then I pour it through a large strainer and pour 170 degree water through it into the main brewpot and proceed from there.

I use a stainless steel enameled pot for brewing, and I don't think I've scraped any of the enamel off. I do like that steeping method though, so maybe I'll give that a try. Thanks!
 
I have had a "twang" from my first 3 extract beers. This batch (which is still in the primary), I did a late extract addition, to reduce caramelization (which may have been responsible for the "twang), and for a few other reasons. I tasted it when I took my first hydrometer reading - no twang, so I am hopeful it will be gone from this batch.

While I am not an expert, others have stated the extract twang can be from the caramelization.
 
Do you think that small amounts of bleach may be getting into the beer? Should I just use strictly sanitizing solution?

I think bleach sticks to plastic. I used to leave a bleach solution in my buckets between batches, then hose it out and fill with StarSan. I absolutely ruined two batches with chlorophenols.

Now, I leave my buckets full of imitation Oxi Clean Free, rinse that out thoroughly, and mix my StarSan with very-slowly-carbon-block-filtered water. Still, I managed to taint a recent batch either from cleaning keg parts with bleach or not filtering my priming solution well enough.:( I feel like I need to be just as paranoid about chlor[ine|amine] as infection - I've lost three brews to the former and two to the latter!

If the beer makes burnt bandaid burps, it's chlorophenol.
 
I think bleach sticks to plastic. I used to leave a bleach solution in my buckets between batches, then hose it out and fill with StarSan. I absolutely ruined two batches with chlorophenols.

Now, I leave my buckets full of imitation Oxi Clean Free, rinse that out thoroughly, and mix my StarSan with very-slowly-carbon-block-filtered water. Still, I managed to taint a recent batch either from cleaning keg parts with bleach or not filtering my priming solution well enough.:( I feel like I need to be just as paranoid about chlor[ine|amine] as infection - I've lost three brews to the former and two to the latter!

If the beer makes burnt bandaid burps, it's chlorophenol.


I don't have the bottle right in front of me, but I seem to remember a reaction warning with bleach and StarSan. Other than the initial de-labeling for bottles in generic oxy-clean there are only two things that touch my equipment: Hot tap water and StarSan. I thouroughly rinse and sanitize everything before and after it touches beer and that's it! I'll occasionally use dish soap on the brewpot with a sponge if it's really nasty, but that is followed with a pyschotic rinse session. The bottles get a good hot rinse after emptying and are bottle-jetted again before being ran through the dishwasher on a rinse/heated dry cycle. I've had good luck with keeping it simple and won't change what I do unless a nasty batch prompts me to do so. After 20 batches, I feel that my method is sound.
 
Some of my beers have had an off flavor too. Actually, it might be more of a smell than a flavor, though of course most "flavors" come to us by way of the olfactory senses. After doing some reading, I think I could very well be dealing with chloraphenols. Our city water is pretty good, but is rather hard and has a bit of a chlorine smell to it. The actual flavor of the beer is good, but it has a slight odor, and after swallowing you can "taste" it in the back of the throat/nasal area. Then there's the burp thing that is really making me think chlorophenols.

I usually use a mix of bottled spring and tap water. I boil my top-off water a day or so beforehand and let it cool while covered. Does the boiling process have any effects on the use of campden tablets (does adding before or after boiling make a difference)?

Are the concentrations of chlorine and/or chloramine in the wash and sanitizing water normally low enough to be a non-issue, or would that need to be dealt with too? I do plan on getting a filtration setup, but in the interim I'll try some batches made with all bottled water to see how it goes.
thanks!

Chris
 
Some of my beers have had an off flavor too. Actually, it might be more of a smell than a flavor, though of course most "flavors" come to us by way of the olfactory senses. After doing some reading, I think I could very well be dealing with chloraphenols. Our city water is pretty good, but is rather hard and has a bit of a chlorine smell to it. The actual flavor of the beer is good, but it has a slight odor, and after swallowing you can "taste" it in the back of the throat/nasal area. Then there's the burp thing that is really making me think chlorophenols.

I usually use a mix of bottled spring and tap water. I boil my top-off water a day or so beforehand and let it cool while covered. Does the boiling process have any effects on the use of campden tablets (does adding before or after boiling make a difference)?

Are the concentrations of chlorine and/or chloramine in the wash and sanitizing water normally low enough to be a non-issue, or would that need to be dealt with too? I do plan on getting a filtration setup, but in the interim I'll try some batches made with all bottled water to see how it goes.
thanks!

Chris

You do pretty much the same thing as me with the mix of spring and tap water. I have always read that when boiling the tap water, all of the chlorine will be boiled off.
I do have a batch that needs bottled within the next week, and I made it a point to do this one with all spring water and no tap water. I'll let you know how it turns out, but again, I did sanitize my ale pail with bleach, so we'll see.

So, what exactly do the campden tablets do, and what is the proper amount to use? I've read about them, but have not tried them yet.
 
Darkestdays you did not say how long you let the beer condition for. Could you just be getting a green beer taste? From what I read on another post you will get a strong alcohol after taste.
 
Seems like some plastics hang onto smells and tastes like crazy. If you are fermenting in a plastic pail, you might pop for a new one and chuck the bleach for Oxyclean or even PBW. You will at least have ruled out a chlorine problem.

Seems like most extract brewers have had the "twang" problem" at some point. You might set a couple of your 'off' bottles back and taste them in two months. If the beer has healed itself, the issue is probably not the chlorine. Of course, that doesn't solve the immediate problem. :confused:
 
Darkestdays you did not say how long you let the beer condition for. Could you just be getting a green beer taste? From what I read on another post you will get a strong alcohol after taste.

I usually let them sit for at least a few weeks before I even touch them. Some of them have sat for over three months, and still have the flavor.

I have recently tried the holiday ale that we bottled a couple weeks ago, and I can't seem to taste the off flavor in this one. I also have two batches which will be bottled within the next week, so I'm going to wait and see how they turn out.

My guess is that the bleach has been the culprit. I will be strictly using a no rinse sanitizer from now on.

I don't know if the buckets are actually "holding on" the the bleach because I've used it every time. I will make sure to do a couple of good soaks before the next use.
 
I don't know if the buckets are actually "holding on" the the bleach because I've used it every time.

My small-batch IPA never touched plastic, and the last bottle I sampled had just a twinge of chlorophenol.:mad: I couldn't even finish it. I can only assume that I used my leaky faucet filter for water for the priming solution. My tap water has chloramine.

Paranoia and campden tabs will be integral to my procedure from now on.
 
I agree that what you have is Chlorophenol. The nasty burnt burps are telling you that. I had this problem with several batches and finally figured it out. I poured out a lot of beer learning this. It never goes away, after months it was still there. it was making me so mad...

So, don't use tap water, don't use chlorine bleach, don't even prime with tap water. I use oxyclean and iodophor along with glass carboys. No problems now.
 
I too suffer from this problem. I've managed to improve it along the way, with various improvements like no more chlorine to sanitize, full boils, controlled ferm temps, etc. But finally on the last batch I switched to bottled water. I forgot about the priming mixture and used tap water (boiled for 15 min) so I hope its ok. My problem is that I cannot detect the off flavor in samples taken along the way, only until after 2 weeks+ in the bottle. Therefore each time I made a change I would have to wait 6 or 7 weeks to find out if flavor is there or not. After 7 batches so far with this off flavor, I hope #8 is the ticket.
 
I too suffer from this problem. I've managed to improve it along the way, with various improvements like no more chlorine to sanitize, full boils, controlled ferm temps, etc. But finally on the last batch I switched to bottled water. I forgot about the priming mixture and used tap water (boiled for 15 min) so I hope its ok. My problem is that I cannot detect the off flavor in samples taken along the way, only until after 2 weeks+ in the bottle. Therefore each time I made a change I would have to wait 6 or 7 weeks to find out if flavor is there or not. After 7 batches so far with this off flavor, I hope #8 is the ticket.

I had the same issue. All the samples through the process were fine. Then after a few weeks of bottle conditioning... there was the bad burp flavor. I think it is because the taste only becomes apparent via the co2 after it is carbonated... that's why you mainly notice it in the burps.
 
Hmm.. You may be right. I do sanitize my primary with a bleach soak before each use, but I make sure to rinse it out quite a few times with HOT water, and I smell it to make sure there is no bleach smell.

Do you think that small amounts of bleach may be getting into the beer? Should I just use strictly sanitizing solution?

Yep and yep. There was a thread not long ago where a few people had the same flavor, all were using bleach and thought they had rinsed it out thoroughly. Get some Starsan and see if that cleans it up. Also, if you top off your fermenter after adding the wort, use bottled water instead of your tap, there may be chlorine in the tap water.
 
The more I brew and read about brewing (still a Noob), the more I'm starting to think there may be an advantage to finishing up whatever equipment you are cleaning/sanitizing with a rinse that is acidic. Any chance that some cleaners are reacting with calcium in tap water to form some kind of film? I can't help but notice how many brewers see an improvement after switching to StarSan which is definitely acid.
 
Well, I found my city water report, and I'm really not sure what to make of it. If anyone is familiar with what is acceptable for brewing, you can find the pdf file here...

http://www.midland-mi.org/government/departments/utilities/07WaterQ.pdf

If anyone wants to look, that would be great. Maybe I can find out if I have horrible city water. By the way, I work at Dow chemical which is about ten minutes away...
 
Not sure what to make of most of that stuff either. I did see Chlorine listed in there though.
 
Well, I found my city water report, and I'm really not sure what to make of it. If anyone is familiar with what is acceptable for brewing, you can find the pdf file here...

http://www.midland-mi.org/government/departments/utilities/07WaterQ.pdf

If anyone wants to look, that would be great. Maybe I can find out if I have horrible city water. By the way, I work at Dow chemical which is about ten minutes away...

My water report looks very similar, the chlorine amount is almost identical. I always thought I had good quality water and I couldn't smell chlorine in it so I refused to believe my water was causing the problem, especially since I was doing full boils and supposedly that boils off any chlorine. Well after 7 bad batches I finally tried bottled water. Of course like an idiot I used tap water for my priming mixture. It will be a couple weeks yet until I know how it turns out.
 
god, you guys are really freaking me out about my water...

i have lake michigan water ( i live about 1.5 miles from the lake) and i know our water treatment facility is supposed to be one of the best in the nation- all brand new hi tech reverse osmosis, etc

i dont smell chlorine in the water ever like i used to at my old home, but i wonder what the level of it is? i dont think there is any municipal water anywhere that has zero chlorine in it

also, dont let dish soap touch your brewery- just asking for trouble- a little dish soap on your hand or some errant foam could easily ruin a whole batch
 
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