Emoneyblue
New Member
Question did we ever get that wiring diagram posted on the control box?
BLING BLING Electric HERMS Conversion
- Thread starter The Pol
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
dutch-brew
Well-Known Member
What is the lowest you can/should install the heating element? I would like to leave as much space as possible for my IC.
I know Pol said in one of these post he put it at the 2 1/2 gal mark, but can you go lower, or will it hurt efficiency of the heating? My guess would be he put it right in the middle of the wort that way, since he did 5 gal batches with this.
Where does everyone else put it? I was thinking of putting it right where the side of the keggle starts to straighten out.
I know Pol said in one of these post he put it at the 2 1/2 gal mark, but can you go lower, or will it hurt efficiency of the heating? My guess would be he put it right in the middle of the wort that way, since he did 5 gal batches with this.
Where does everyone else put it? I was thinking of putting it right where the side of the keggle starts to straighten out.
kal
Well-Known Member
I put mine as low as possible without interfering with my Hopstopper:
More pics/info: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/node/9
Kal
More pics/info: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/node/9
Kal
dutch-brew
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply Kal.. Hopefully i will have all my components this week to make my e-keggle.
That's a good looking site you are setting up about electric brewing! Great pics and well documented. Looking forward to seeing the rest of the build put up on there.
On a side note, another question i have is how most people clean their e-keggles. Just unhook everything, take outside and wash out?
I know Pol said something about he just washes with oxyclean, thoguh i am confused then how he'd get the spent hops and break-material and everything out.
I am putting connectors on all my wires so i can take them apart and clean/rinse outside. Hopefully no problem that way knocking the element around.
Memorex88
Well-Known Member
Thanks Kal. What a great link with all the step by step pictures!
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
At the "2 1/2 gal mark" that would scare the hell out of me unless I didn't care about burning out elements with very little liquid coverage above plus had a chit load of free ones to replace them. What makes 2 1/2" so special this a proven location for the most efficency in heat energy or BTU's of transfer? Why not locate it lower and let the heat rise thru more liquid before releasing heat into air sooner vs letting the element heat rise with 2 1/2 gallons of cold liquid below not get heated I must ask? Then factor in a PITA with the element up high with chiller coil clearance problems not alone banging up the element until it fails during cleanings. This is my take on the 2 1/2 gallon of height to element location placement posted.
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
Kal; you still alive? I totally agree mount the element low as possible and let the heat rise naturally thru the most liquid volume mass.
Remember the model "T" without a water pump due to heat rising for auto circulation or heat convective transfer? Something in the past about the laws of thermal dynamics.
humboldt
Member
Kal, that's an awesome tutorial, I'm glad I checked this thread again and saw your link before I tried using a hole saw.
conpewter
Well-Known Member
Well Kal's element ( as well as mine) will survive dry firing. That's one of the great things about the ULWD elements. Mine is even lower but I have the bottom drain on my boil kettle so I don't have a dip tube in the way.
http://www.camco.net/faqelement.cfm
http://www.camco.net/faqelement.cfm
willynilly
Well-Known Member
I mean, this is in a BK, why would you have the element on when you are draining it anyway? 2.5 gallons is plenty low enough, unless you leave your element on while you are draining the BK
2.5 gallons is plenty low enough, unless you leave your element on while you are draining the BK BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
I mean, this is in a BK, why would you have the element on when you are draining it anyway?
You'll have to wait longer while the MLT is draining until the BK is about half full before you can energize the boil BK element vs starting to boil almost right away with the element placed lower in your BK.
willynilly
Well-Known Member
Well, in that case you would be looking in the kettle before you turned it on, so it would be really difficult to accidentally energize it before it was submerged.
Frick, I wont energize mine until my BK is full, it boils too quick
Frick, I wont energize mine until my BK is full, it boils too quick
kal
Well-Known Member
Because mistakes happen.I mean, this is in a BK, why would you have the element on when you are draining it anyway?
I never knew that these ULWD ones could be dry fired! Interesting.
Kal
You'd think that would be a no-brainer. It happens, though. Sometimes it's just a silly little mistake, like flipping the switch for the BK instead of the switch for the pump, I imagine. I worry about it every brewday!
willynilly
Well-Known Member
If you energize it accidentally, I guess it doesnt matter how low you place it then... 2.5 gallons or at 1 gallon, if it is empty...
kal
Well-Known Member
I never turn on the BK element until it's all full since I want to do all these things first: Add my salts, measure pH, measure gravity. You can't measure pH and pre-boil gravity until you've finished sparging.
Kal
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
All true Kal, for $65 you can add a light sensor that has the transmitter and receiver as a single unit bolted thru the side of your BK that can control the elements SSR signal. This sensor is rated to 230*F. Check out this unit below. You can have it in stainless body also but then it's $240 vs a Honeywell LLS series unit in stainless for $124.
http://www.gemssensors.com/content.aspx?id=5432
klyph
Well-Known Member
Anyone have a link to the site where Pol is continuing this thread?
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
My opinion on using a float switch for the heating element is that over-temp protection on the element is a better solution.
I don't and wouldn't build anything like this for myself but I have a lot of heated chemical tanks at work and lots of tanks with float switches. My comment is just based on that.
I don't and wouldn't build anything like this for myself but I have a lot of heated chemical tanks at work and lots of tanks with float switches. My comment is just based on that.
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
If the elements submergered there shouldn't be a element overheating problem, my thinking a liquid level would be more important than the elements temperture. Just my way of thinking to keep it energerized until the level gets too low then shuts down before the element gets exposed and too hot first.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
Because most of the heated tanks we have use over-temp protection instead of float switches. We have several tanks with float switches (for other reasons) and floats get stuck. Over-temp can fail too but it seems less likely.
It's basically just a temp controller with a thermocouple on the element but you (usually) have to manually reset it. Can be used for temp control or over-temp protection. Element gets too hot, temp controller shuts it off. Once the element cools down enough, press the reset button and you're ready to go again.
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
As I already replied in posting 697, this unit;
http://www.gemssensors.com/content.aspx?id=5432
For $65 no mechanical parts to stick or jam.
http://www.gemssensors.com/content.aspx?id=5432
For $65 no mechanical parts to stick or jam.
BrewBeemer
Well-Known Member
That's correct, if it's above the element you will have element protection from running dry burning up. Temp control by your temp probe in the dry well. It would take two units to fail plus you having a boiling pot with a lot of steam that might get your attention that somethings wrong. If your using a ULWD element it's not that hot at 50 watt/ sq in anyway.
dutch-brew
Well-Known Member
I have just about all my stuff in to get my whole box wired up, pretty much the same as in the OP.
Just to check something though, the OP has 3 different gauges wire in the parts list, wouldn't it be easier to just go with 10 ga. on everything? (except between the PID and SSR)
Why change between 10, 12 and 14 ga.? Can't be the cost..
If you would use them all, where use the 12 and 14?
Just to check something though, the OP has 3 different gauges wire in the parts list, wouldn't it be easier to just go with 10 ga. on everything? (except between the PID and SSR)
Why change between 10, 12 and 14 ga.? Can't be the cost..
If you would use them all, where use the 12 and 14?
illin8
Well-Known Member
I just got done doing part of my wiring, 10 ga is somewhat difficult to deal with. The smaller ga wire will be easier in positioning and installing, plus 10 ga is just overkill. When you start getting everything in, you'll understand.
willynilly
Well-Known Member
After you wire a few boxes, you realize how nice it is to only use the ga. wire you NEED... there is a big difference between 10 ga and 12 ga... and it is nice to use 22 ga where you can, you can run spools of that stuff and it takes up NO room.
CodeRage
Death by Magumba!
No problems with going to a smaller gauge wire, just make sure it is fused correctly.
dutch-brew
Well-Known Member
But still stick with 10 ga. for the 240V i would assume.. and keep everything with the proper 4 colors wire..
willynilly
Well-Known Member
The voltage has nothing to do with the size of the wire. You can use 18ga on 240VAC. It is about load, not voltage
To be exact, it is current (amperage) we care about.
Load is usually how we refer to impedence. I know some use this term for the wattage of a device (power), but I don't.
not to dig up an old thread but i have my 240V electric herms up and running, thanks in large part to this thread. So a big thank you is in order Pol! (whether you're gone or not)
A couple suggestions to anyone attempting this:
go with the RTD sensor, the k-type is a POS and having that tether to the control box is a PITA (yes, you can unscrew the k-type pretty easy, but not when there is liquid in the keggle, and you'll wish you could)
the pid is simple and nice, but i kinda wish i spent the extra to go with computer controls
look at different 1" couplers for the element, a 90 degree bend might work better for your setup
Relevant to running control box off a 3-prong outlet, if you have a 4-prong be happy and ignore this:
I don't remember where this thread left off on the ground/neutral issue/3-prong, but this can run unsafely by having all your grounds go to a ground bar and then attach that ground bar to the neutral wire coming in from a 3-prong outlet. This of course is without a GFI. BUT It is pretty easy (and cheap) to run a ground wire from your circuit breaker, or even just from a copper pipe drain (that might not actually be safe, I'm not an electrician so don't listen to anything i say) to supplement a 3-prong outlet.
A couple suggestions to anyone attempting this:
go with the RTD sensor, the k-type is a POS and having that tether to the control box is a PITA (yes, you can unscrew the k-type pretty easy, but not when there is liquid in the keggle, and you'll wish you could)
the pid is simple and nice, but i kinda wish i spent the extra to go with computer controls
look at different 1" couplers for the element, a 90 degree bend might work better for your setup
Relevant to running control box off a 3-prong outlet, if you have a 4-prong be happy and ignore this:
I don't remember where this thread left off on the ground/neutral issue/3-prong, but this can run unsafely by having all your grounds go to a ground bar and then attach that ground bar to the neutral wire coming in from a 3-prong outlet. This of course is without a GFI. BUT It is pretty easy (and cheap) to run a ground wire from your circuit breaker, or even just from a copper pipe drain (that might not actually be safe, I'm not an electrician so don't listen to anything i say) to supplement a 3-prong outlet.
kal
Well-Known Member
A ground and GFI are two completely different things. One does not replace the other.
I'm not sure if you're telling people to attach a ground bar in their control panel to the neutral, so it's worth mentioning:
You should also NEVER attach a ground the NEUTRAL anywhere other than inside your house breaker panel! IN MOST PLACES IN NORTH AMERICA (most likely all) THIS IS AGAINST CODE!
Please read this electrical primer for brewers: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/electrical-primer-brewers-145019/
Kal
Electricity will kill you, understand it before you use it.
Correct, GFI and ground are two separate things. A GFI can not run on a 3-prong cord (without ground) was my only point - making it even more unsafe. simply having a ground wire does NOT IN ANY WAY replace a GFI, a ground alone is not much protection at all, and i did not mean to imply otherwise. but running a ground wire in combination with a 3-prong outlet can allow one to wire in a GFI and be as safe as a 4-prong outlet if done correctly.
And all of your advise is correct. You should not run this with a 3-prong dryer outlet without a ground that is grandfathered in and thus still up to code in an old house, but some people might be doing that anyway.
[EDIT: deleted, read the electrical primer, not trying to start a debate in this thread]
i mean only to report that the configuration did not kill me or ruin my equipment, not that it is safe or should be done. (it isn't and it shouldn't)
Correct, GFI and ground are two separate things. A GFI can not run on a 3-prong cord (without ground) was my only point - making it even more unsafe. simply having a ground wire does NOT IN ANY WAY replace a GFI, a ground alone is not much protection at all, and i did not mean to imply otherwise. but running a ground wire in combination with a 3-prong outlet can allow one to wire in a GFI and be as safe as a 4-prong outlet if done correctly.
And all of your advise is correct. You should not run this with a 3-prong dryer outlet without a ground that is grandfathered in and thus still up to code in an old house, but some people might be doing that anyway.
[EDIT: deleted, read the electrical primer, not trying to start a debate in this thread]
i mean only to report that the configuration did not kill me or ruin my equipment, not that it is safe or should be done. (it isn't and it shouldn't)
This is the way I have mine wired. My subpanel GFCI has 4 wires going to it (2 hots, ground, and neutral), but I am only using 2 hots and the ground out of breaker to power my elements. The 120 for my control panel plugs into a standard outlet (GFCI). I did it this way because I had a bunch of 6/3 wire laying around. I actually like it this way as I now use a timer to plug my control panel into, and it will automatically start when timer goes on.
jkarp
Well-Known Member
illin8
Well-Known Member
I thought a GFCI measured against the NEUTRAL to determine there was no deviation or loss on the circuit, thereby tripping the GFCI itself if it became 'unbalanced'?
I'm curious - is it wise to attach a heat sink with nothing but epoxy and caulk? Particularly when it's attached to the heat source? IMHO, it would be wise to attach the heat sink with at least one screw in case the epoxy softens...
Similar threads
