I have a 40 gallon Vulcan kettle that I'm converting to single phase for my summer rig. One fellow that did this states its as easy as changing the wiring to the elements in parallel instead of series. Since I will be feeding in 2 hots instead of three, I'm to disregard the third leg on the contactor. That's all fine, my question I have is if it is rated 24 KW on 3 phase, would it be the same amp draw on single phase? I'm thinking it would be higher? Its currently 208v and I would be feeding 230v.
3ph Steam Kettle Wiring Question
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Tough question to answer without seeing the product or its intending wiring. There is a HUGH depends involved in this one. I'm thinking there are 3 elements in the rig. Question: Are they connected as "Delta" or "Y" for 3-phase? The actual element voltage depends on the answer to that one.
phreaky
Well-Known Member
Without looking at a schematic it's hard to say for certain, but if it's 3 phase and has 3 elements, its probably 1 element per phase. If they each run at 208, 30 amps as a guess, and you wired them all to one phase in parallel, you would need 208 at 90 amps to push them. They would probably work fine on 220, but also not a guarantee. The short answer is its going to be tough to easily get as much heat out of it as you could on three phase.
rollinred
Well-Known Member
Hey bud, I got some good news. I work for Hobart (who owns Vulcan). Get me a model, ML number, and electircal specs and I can get you a factory diagram.
Hey Red! Its an EL-40 built in 1976. 24kw. Thanks! I'm sure I will be needing larger than a 100 amp breaker for this beast.
The other thing I was contemplating was only using 2 of the elements at a time. The third one would be my spare if one goes bad. Once we get a diagram we can talk about that too.
The other thing I was contemplating was only using 2 of the elements at a time. The third one would be my spare if one goes bad. Once we get a diagram we can talk about that too.
Here is the page I found where one fellow converted a steam kettle from 3 phase to single. This isn't my exact kettle, but would this theory work? I am thinking of leaving one element unhooked, and using 2 at single phase. Currently it uses 24kw, so on 2 it would be 16kw. I only have 100amp to my brewroom and that would work, but running all three elements would be too much.
http://members.shaw.ca/pferlow/3phase.htm
http://members.shaw.ca/pferlow/3phase.htm
rollinred
Well-Known Member
I did find the factory diagrams for both single and three phase.
What I will tell you is only how the factory wiring for this machine works.
From the sounds of it you have a unit with two, 3-pole contactors. All three poles are used regardless of which electrical specification you are using. You do not drop one. In single phase, from the terminal block, each incoming is split to three leads; each set of three going to a contactor.
What you are really going to have to be cautious of is the rating on those contactors because there was 6 different contactors used in the production of these units and you're going to be raising the amp draw significantly. At 230v the amp draw will be 100 for both elements or 50 for each.
The other issue is to know whether that element is 208 or 240 or if it is designed to run on both. Most often I see voltage specific and would be very concerned about running that element 240v.
I am no electrician so there may be tricks to making this work. I am bound by my knowledge and also legally in a sense to simply tell you what the factory wiring is. Even if I knew how to modify or if stuff would work I wouldn't tell. Let the other guys go for that. I will keep my diagram out in case you have other questions that come up. If you have a fax machine I can send them to you by fax.
What I will tell you is only how the factory wiring for this machine works.
From the sounds of it you have a unit with two, 3-pole contactors. All three poles are used regardless of which electrical specification you are using. You do not drop one. In single phase, from the terminal block, each incoming is split to three leads; each set of three going to a contactor.
What you are really going to have to be cautious of is the rating on those contactors because there was 6 different contactors used in the production of these units and you're going to be raising the amp draw significantly. At 230v the amp draw will be 100 for both elements or 50 for each.
The other issue is to know whether that element is 208 or 240 or if it is designed to run on both. Most often I see voltage specific and would be very concerned about running that element 240v.
I am no electrician so there may be tricks to making this work. I am bound by my knowledge and also legally in a sense to simply tell you what the factory wiring is. Even if I knew how to modify or if stuff would work I wouldn't tell. Let the other guys go for that. I will keep my diagram out in case you have other questions that come up. If you have a fax machine I can send them to you by fax.
Thanks for the diagrams rollinred! I have uploaded the diagrams, but I am still confused on which wire is which. I will take a picture of the wiring on my unit as it is right now and add that to the next post. Maybe someone can let me know if they have any ideas on how to rewire this.
Okay, here are the pictures of my actual wiring, I have a 70 amp contactor in there already it appears. Do you think it is set up for single phase already? I don't know if you can tell from the pictures or not. Each of the 3 sets of 2 wires out of the bottom of the contactor are labelled T1, T2 and T3 for some reason. I can email the larger pictures if anyone needs a closer look.
Thanks!!
Thanks!!
Well, I'm going to go ahead and wire up the two elements like the single phase diagram and see what happens. Since there are three lugs on each element, I am not sure what each one is for, but at the worst I will blow the elements and trip the breaker. I think I will do one element at a time, so if I do wreck one, I have the other one for my second failure...
Given you have 3 elements and a 70 amp contactor I would say you the wiring diagrams you have are not for this unit, so I personally would not use them as the basis for my wiring. Although it might simply be an extension to that design (1 additional set of 3-phase contact poles and another element)Okay, here are the pictures of my actual wiring, I have a 70 amp contactor in there already it appears. Do you think it is set up for single phase already? I don't know if you can tell from the pictures or not. Each of the 3 sets of 2 wires out of the bottom of the contactor are labelled T1, T2 and T3 for some reason. I can email the larger pictures if anyone needs a closer look.
Thanks!!
You say there are 3 wires going into each element, that leads me to think that it is set up for 3 phase by looking at the wiring diagrams.
I am very worried about you doing this, the worst thing is not the element blowing, the worst this is you dieing and that is a real possibility if you do not fully understand what you are doing and why you are doing it.
If you want to get this running I seriously suggest you talk to an electrician.
Well I ran wire to the steam kettle Saturday, then got pulled in other directions so I don't have it wired up just yet. I am waiting for a different wiring diagram with one contactor from Rollinred, then I will give it a go. Feeding it 100 amps.
I am guessing that what you are refering to as "one contactor" (the green box?) is what is shown in the diagram. Again I'm guessing this is a single box with 2 sets (or 3 in your case) of 3-phase contacts.
Can you confirm how you have (or are going to) wire it up, maybe mark up on the diagram where you have disconnected and run wires to/from and what/where you are feeding you power into.
The link you posted doesn't show the power being changed (still 3 wires into the contactor)
One further question is where did you get the 24 kW rating from?
Hi Matt,
The contactor is a 70 amp, and the rating on the plate in front is 24kw. There are two elements at 12k each at 3 phase. I haven't done any wiring internally to the kettle yet as I am still waiting for the single contactor wiring diagram.
It appears the elements are wired in parallel, with one phase going to each of the input lugs on the element. Once I get a wiring diagram for the single phase, single contactor, I will take another look at it.
I am figuring that there will be two wires to each element, but I am not sure right now to which of the three lugs on the element they should be connected, or if it even matters. Maybe I should remove one of the elements and have a look see. On edit: in my manual they have a different part number for the 240v heating elements, I hope I don't have to purchase one of them as they are 300 dollars. All other resistive heaters don't have much of an issue running a little higher voltage, but this one may.
The contactor is a 70 amp, and the rating on the plate in front is 24kw. There are two elements at 12k each at 3 phase. I haven't done any wiring internally to the kettle yet as I am still waiting for the single contactor wiring diagram.
It appears the elements are wired in parallel, with one phase going to each of the input lugs on the element. Once I get a wiring diagram for the single phase, single contactor, I will take another look at it.
I am figuring that there will be two wires to each element, but I am not sure right now to which of the three lugs on the element they should be connected, or if it even matters. Maybe I should remove one of the elements and have a look see. On edit: in my manual they have a different part number for the 240v heating elements, I hope I don't have to purchase one of them as they are 300 dollars. All other resistive heaters don't have much of an issue running a little higher voltage, but this one may.
First off, if you havent figured it out already, it was originally wired 3 phase. To make it easier to understand, think of each three phase element as 3 individual standard elements (6 terminals on each element = 3 pairs of normal wires to each "3ph element".
You need to figure out how much power you are going to be able to supply (amperage) and work from there.
The wiring diagram makes sense, it's basically taking three groups of two elements and running them in parallel with eachother. These circuits then run in parallel with the 240v 1ph power (= LOTS of amps!!!!) If you think you can follow that 1ph diagram to wire it up, it'll work ok. If it draws too much power for your circuitry, then disconnect one of the element sets.
You need to figure out how much power you are going to be able to supply (amperage) and work from there.
The wiring diagram makes sense, it's basically taking three groups of two elements and running them in parallel with eachother. These circuits then run in parallel with the 240v 1ph power (= LOTS of amps!!!!) If you think you can follow that 1ph diagram to wire it up, it'll work ok. If it draws too much power for your circuitry, then disconnect one of the element sets.
Thanks for checking this thread out swede!
I only have 125 amp service to my barn where the kettle will be wired up, so I plan on just using 2 elements for now. When I purchased the kettle I was assured it was set for single phase, but I am finding that isn't true. I will probably have an electrician out to look it over after harvest this fall.
I only have 125 amp service to my barn where the kettle will be wired up, so I plan on just using 2 elements for now. When I purchased the kettle I was assured it was set for single phase, but I am finding that isn't true. I will probably have an electrician out to look it over after harvest this fall.
grandequeso
Well-Known Member
Looks pretty simple to me. take a close look at the wiring diagrams, look at how the 3ph elements have little jumpers between the posts on the heaters. Then see how they are different in the single phase plans.
Then as far as the contactors go, yours is basically a reflection of the 3phase diagram, but instead of running several separate contactors they just ran one contactor with three wires in parralell. To switch to single phase remove all the wires from the element you're planning on deleting and from one of the poles of the contactor (delete the one on the far right. Line one and two feed the controls) Then just follow the wiring diagram for single phase. you will end up havi 4 wires coming out of the each of the two poles on the contactor instead of three. From there just remove the jumpers on the elements and rewire it as per the diagram. This could easily be a 30 minute job. And you're ready to cook. pm me if you want to try doing this and need more guidance.
grandequeso
Then as far as the contactors go, yours is basically a reflection of the 3phase diagram, but instead of running several separate contactors they just ran one contactor with three wires in parralell. To switch to single phase remove all the wires from the element you're planning on deleting and from one of the poles of the contactor (delete the one on the far right. Line one and two feed the controls) Then just follow the wiring diagram for single phase. you will end up havi 4 wires coming out of the each of the two poles on the contactor instead of three. From there just remove the jumpers on the elements and rewire it as per the diagram. This could easily be a 30 minute job. And you're ready to cook. pm me if you want to try doing this and need more guidance.
grandequeso
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