Landlord Woes

Okay, this is a tad long so please bear with me.

My wife and I moved into this apartment in April 2006 for a 1 year lease. The lease made us responcible for utilities "named below" being water, gas and electricity. It stipulated that the utilities must be switched into our name and that upon moving out, any balance paid by the landlord could be withheld as back rent. (It also stipulates that we must pay swimming pool cleaning fees. It's a generic contract: we don't have a pool.)

When we called back then to have the gas and water put in our name were were told in both cases the same thing: "The property was built in 1930 as a single-family dwelling so there's only one inlet, we can't bill to a specific apartment." We told this to the landlord who then said she'd "take care of it".

In December 2006 we called the landlord to complain about the heat not working. She promptly sent out a maintainance guy who had to drain the furnace and stare at it baffled wonder why it didn't work. It then dawned on him to check the obvious "Is your thermostat turned on?". My wife and I looked like 'What thermostat?"

It turned out that like the gas inlet and water inlet, there's only one heating system in the building. The thermostat is located in the other apartment. Luckily, we're cool with our neighbor and the property is "cheap" so this wasn't an issue really.

Fast forward a year to two days ago. Once again the heat isn't working, so I went downstairs and flushed the system out myself. I then noticed the pilot light was out. I attempted to re-light it (and failed) so we called the landlord again who sent out a technician.

My wife got a call yesterday from the landlord saying she was "pretty upset" that she had wasted money on the technician when the gas had been turned off. "We don't pay the gas bill" my wife said to her. "That's why the gas is off, you guys didn't pay the bill."

The landlord now states that she sent notices to us that we (my wife and I) and the neighbor (Jim) would have to split the bill evenly (reminder: I don't have a thermostat and can't control how much gas is used) and that we'd have to pay it ourselves. If we had any problem collecting the bill from our neighbor (us, not her!) to call her and she'd handle it. Since we hadn't paid her, she stopped paying the bill in March 2007 and to get it back on WE (my wife and I) would have to pay the back bill and the inspection fee to get it turned back on. The total, $1,355 (per the gas company).

BULL!

My wife and I are pro-actively consulting a lawyer. We don't think she can legally charge us for a utility that can't be put in our name and where even the gas company can't measure our usage. We want to ensure that she can't claim we owe that money and we want to ensure that she can't withhold our deposit because of that.

What do you guys think? Is this lady abusing us or did we walk into this one? Anyone with experience with this kind of thing? Anyone a tenent lawyer in Maryland?

I would say a bit of both. Never, ever, never take someone word of faith with reguards to contracts or rental agreements. With this instance you may have a case since she rented you an living space that advertisises heat and or ac but have no control of it. Its going to be a tuff call. if you signed nothing from the gas company then you need to find a new place to live and tell her to frimly pack sand in her vajayjay.

Who's name is the utility bill in?
Your neighbor or the landlord?

ReverendJC said:

With this instance you may have a case since she rented you an living space that advertisises heat and or ac but have no control of it. Its going to be a tuff call. if you signed nothing from the gas company then you need to find a new place to live and tell her to frimly pack sand in her vajayjay.

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We signed nothing with the gas company. They very clearly told us they could NOT put the bill in our name because the infrastructure doesn't consider there to be an Apartment 1 and 2, JUST the street address.

As to the moving, we're certainly looking into it. Moving is a pain, but so is getting screwed and living in anxiety.

olllllo said:

Who's name is the utility bill in?
Your neighbor or the landlord?

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The bill in in the landlord's name, not mine nor my neighbor.

BUY A HOUSE!

I did and have never looked back. Although I will ***** about property taxes

MikeFlynn said:

BUY A HOUSE!

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My first version of this post actually began with "I rent. I have crappy credit, very little money in savings and I plan to move in the next three years."

Do you have any local :
- tenant advocay group?
- state board regulating tenant-landlord rules of the game?

What is the other tenant doing about it?

Spend the next year workign on your credit-

Challange everything on your report. Most of the time the creditors will ignore the challenges and the credit beauro will drop the negatives-

Also look- find a trusted lender- 700 will get you a great rate. 650 will get you in.

The Housing market is slow and its a huge buy market. Make some low offers and see what you get.
At least this way your not paying someone elses mortgage.

1. Start looking for a new place.
2. Kiss your deposit goodbye, and get over it. This will not end nicely and your efforts to protect it will cost more than the deposit.
3. Due to #2. Start heating yourselves with a little campfire in the living room (Make sure you construct a little chimney flue and route it through the wall).
It sucks, but realize that your only risk is the deposit and the landlord has MUCH more to lose. Something she should have realized a while ago.

I hope you're joking with #3, Germey! Constructing some kind of fire-hazard that is not to code in a rental property without landlord permission is a surefire way to end up with a lawsuit. There is MUCH more to risk than the deposit. Just because there's a thousand bucks in deposit money doesn't mean the landlord can't come at you for costs above and beyond that. I mean, if that were the case, you could burn the fuggin house to the ground and all you'd be liable for was the deposit money. Not quite!

I'm sure the advice was "Find another way to heat yourself" which we've already done.

So, who's been physically receiving the bill? You and your wife? The neighbor?

the_bird said:

So, who's been physically receiving the bill?

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The landlord.

Get the lawyer, you wont have to pay this. The landlord is ignorant of the law.

Why was he expecting that you'd be paying it, if you weren't receiving it? That just doesn't make any sense... why wasn't he going to you and saying "Hey, you owe me $135 for the gas bill!"

the_bird said:

Why was he expecting that you'd be paying it, if you weren't receiving it?

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Because our generic lease stipulates that we are responcible for all utilities and it specifically mentioned gas. However, the SAME clause also stipulates that the utilities must be transfered into our names. The latter was impossible (since we'd be obligated to pay my neighbor's bill too, so the gas company wouldn't allow it) and I'm not sure if it technically negates the former responcibility clause. Her claim is essentially "you guys used X amount of gas and are contractually responcible for this utility, so you each owe me half". I'm not sure if she can LEGALLY charge us for a usage-based utility if she can't determine that either of us used a given amount? Would the fact that I can't control the gas mean I'm absolved from paying for it...

the_bird said:

That just doesn't make any sense... why wasn't he going to you and saying "Hey, you owe me $135 for the gas bill!"

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That's a DAMN good question. But I have a better one: Why didn't the landlord realize we "owed" $1,300 BEFORE calling the technician?

check zoning for the house you are renting. i am betting the landlord may get into a huge amount of trouble if they have turned a single family home into 2 efficiencies w/o proper zoning. this may be your out allowing you to receive your deposit.

Kevin Dean said:

I'm sure the advice was "Find another way to heat yourself" which we've already done.

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Yes, joking. Thank goodness Kevin is in possession of that increasingly rare common sense. I need to remember to put a :cross: or some other internet standard indicator that I am joking. Either that or create a signature containing the appropriate boiler plate to disclaim any liability for the actions of anyone believing anything I say.

Good luck.

jbreiding said:

check zoning for the house you are renting. i am betting the landlord may get into a huge amount of trouble if they have turned a single family home into 2 efficiencies w/o proper zoning. this may be your out allowing you to receive your deposit.

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yeah, man...nothing like some good old fashioned blackmail! I'm thinking the same thing, she might be running afoul of zoning laws if there's only one technical address there.

Germey said:

Yes, joking. Thank goodness Kevin is in possession of that increasingly rare common sense. I need to remember to put a :cross: or some other internet standard indicator that I am joking. Either that or create a signature containing the appropriate boiler plate to disclaim any liability for the actions of anyone believing anything I say.

Good luck.

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Yeah, usually smilies like work well, or even . Or HBT standards dictate the use of medium turquoise colored text for sarcasm, as the internerd is notoriously bad at conveying levels of sarcasm.

Evan! said:

Yeah, usually smilies like work well, or even . Or HBT standards dictate the use of medium turquoise colored text for sarcasm, as the internerd is notoriously bad at conveying levels of sarcasm.

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It's supposed to be TEAL!!!

Sounds like a crazy situation. That's why I don't rent. I bought a condo first and moved on from there. I would suggest doing whatever you need to do to fix your credit and buy something of your own.

I was told med turq, but then again, I was told in teal, so who knows anymore? Either way.

In any legal matter there's being a cost to being "right".
On the whole of it I think I'd rather be you then her.

Your landlord is an idiot, this has got to be damaging his credit score. Move immediately and never look back.

Evan! said:

yeah, man...nothing like some good old fashioned blackmail! I'm thinking the same thing, she might be running afoul of zoning laws if there's only one technical address there.

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Best of all, blackmail is free.
I do stand by my items 1 and 2, though. Depending on the rental market and the size of the deposit and whether the LL is holding last-month rent in addition to it, it may be better to just say, "outta here" and not fight at all. If it goes to court, there will likely be up front costs, lots of time (courts don't convene after you get off work), and you may still end up owing some court costs at the end even if you win. If the LL has a last month rent and you have found a place (or are fairly sure you can get one within 4 weeks), don't pay your last month's rent. On your way out, don't pay for any cleaning, and at least have a really good party. Maybe you could charge a cover to offset your deposit loss.
It may ultimately be better to fight it, but don't forget to weigh the real costs of that route, including your time and sanity.

Germey said:

Best of all, blackmail is free.
I do stand by my items 1 and 2, though. Depending on the rental market and the size of the deposit and whether the LL is holding last-month rent in addition to it, it may be better to just say, "outta here" and not fight at all. If it goes to court, there will likely be up front costs, lots of time (courts don't convene after you get off work), and you may still end up owing some court costs at the end even if you win. If the LL has a last month rent and you have found a place (or are fairly sure you can get one within 4 weeks), don't pay your last month's rent. On your way out, don't pay for any cleaning, and at least have a really good party. Maybe you could charge a cover to offset your deposit loss.
It may ultimately be better to fight it, but don't forget to weigh the real costs of that route, including your time and sanity.

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there may not even need to be a fight if the landlord is in violation of zoning laws. if the contract is you are renting an apartment and that isn't an apartment the contract becomes null and void and the LL becomes liable to return all deposits. taxes are also based on zoning and dwelling, so if they are doing something they arent zoned for they may be skipping out on some taxes. you may also want to check your local "renters rights". deposits in fl are required to be placed in an account separate from the LL accounts. that account information, including institution, is supposed to be delivered to the renter within 30 days of occupation.

just goto your county appraisers site and lookup the address. a little bit of research may mean enough info to get out of there w/o losing a dime.

Kevin Dean said:

I'm not sure if she can LEGALLY charge us for a usage-based utility if she can't determine that either of us used a given amount? Would the fact that I can't control the gas mean I'm absolved from paying for it...

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I lived in an apartment for a summer and this is how it was done for the water. There was only one meter per 8 apartments. The complex would get the bill from the water people, divide it by 8, then they had a thrid party collector send out the bill with our nem specifically on the bill. But, this was explicitly explained in the lease. Luckily for us, non of the people in the building were jerks and use too much water.

You might also contact the gas company, something like this has bound to have happened before. Also, some states have VERY strict rules about having gas turned off in the cold months.

The Attorney General's Consumer Protection Division has a Mediation Unit that can help you try to resolve a dispute with a landlord.

Downtown Baltimore Office
200 St. Paul Place, 16th Floor
Baltimore, MD 21202-2021
Complaint Line:
(410) 528-8662 or
D.C. metro area: (301) 470-7534
9 a.m. to 3 p.m., M-F
TDD for hearing impaired person: (410) 576-6372
Website: www.oag.state.md.us/consumer (consumers can download a consumer complaint form)

Write her a letter with two lines:

1. Is the IRS aware of this building being a two family rental?

2. How much do we owe you again?

While the fact that you signed the lease as is presents a problem (you agreed to pay gas) the fact there's no way to meter your share of the usage dictates that it should have also spelled out how that "gas charge" was going to be imposed. Clearly you don't owe it all and even "half" would only be reasonable if it said so in the lease. If both apartments have gas stoves, the only reasonable choice is to convert to two-meters or the landlord pays the gas and makes up for it in the flat rental fee.

I think I'd start with the AG's office. Looks like there's some good info on that site. At the very least, I'd be dropping mention of "attorney general's office" the next time I spoke with the landlord Basically, words to the effect of - "You didn't give us the damn bill to pay, now your credit's all f*cked up, give me my deposit back or I'm calling the attorney general's office."

the_bird said:

I think I'd start with the AG's office.

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He's needs to move out - not buy All Grain Equipment. And when did we become so offical that there is a need for an office? Is that why hop and grain prices are going up?

..if the landlord/lady is in technical violation, doesn't that mean that our friend here may have to find suitable housing asap, as the appt. would then be deemed unfit..?

I have had several rentals over the years and managed them myself(no prop mgmt company).

Not sure what the rental rights laws are in Maryland, but in Oregon the tenant could basically never pay and thing, wreck the house, kick my dog, etc. and get away scot free.

My only recourse was a) a lawsuit, and then b) report to their credit.

Both options were both more expensive than what the people owed me, who could not pay anyway since they didn't have the resources in the first place.

Just walk away and don't look back. I'd say odds are they'll just forget about it and move on.

There is too much hassle/expense in collecting money from faulty tenants.

Well it's more about threatening to bring that info to the attention of the authorities. There's no reason he can't ask to renegotiate the lease now since it's impossible to adhear to.

You may be able to make this a win-win.

Offer that you'll pay a little bit more in rent, but that he needs to amend the lease so that HE is responsible for paying the gas bill, since there's no way for it to be registered to you. If the bill's averaging $100 for your half a month, offer an extra $50 in rent. You don't call an attorney, the AG, or the IRS for his having an improper apartment. You get cheap heat, he stays out of trouble.

While I think that the lease was poorly worded and executed, it is fair to say that you "owe" some portion of the utilities. I use the word "owe" loosely.

Bobby has a point. If you can negotiate a way to pay some portion that is agreeable so that you can complete your lease AND DOCUMENT THE AGREEMENT. You may find that that is the least costly route both financially and psychologically,

Okay, so we've contacted the zoning commission. That was no dice... The zoning in Frederick is designed very clearly to preserve downtown and let everything else be liberal. The lowest density area is a 4 family dwelling - single homes, duplexes and small apartment buildings fit this. So, no luck there.

Donasay said:

The Attorney General's Consumer Protection Division has a Mediation Unit

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I've called them. The automated system essentially says "File a complaint and in 6 weeks we'll have status here for you". Speaking to a human tells me that answering those questions is beyond the scope of their office.

Beeriffic said:

I lived in an apartment for a summer and this is how it was done for the water. There was only one meter per 8 apartments. The complex would get the bill from the water people, divide it by 8, then they had a thrid party collector send out the bill with our nem specifically on the bill. But, this was explicitly explained in the lease. Luckily for us, non of the people in the building were jerks and use too much water.

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Honestly, that sounds shady as hell to me. You, on one hand, were notified very clearly in the lease. We, on the other hand, were not. The MAINTAINANCE guy didn't even know we didn't have a thermostat in the apartment until we complained. I'm certain the landlord doesn't know that herself. I'd perhaps be willing to pay half of the bill, and continue to pay it if three conditions were met:
1.) Don't make us responcible for collecting the neighbor's half.
2.) Provide control for us - ie. install a thermostat or move it
3.) She agree to maintain the utility in the event the neighbor doesn't pay his half.

Beeriffic said:

You might also contact the gas company, something like this has bound to have happened before. Also, some states have VERY strict rules about having gas turned off in the cold months

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We called the gas company and asked to speak to their legal department (who handles disputes). I'm sure there's a CYA policy in place, and I don't blame them, but their answer was, officially, that can't happen. The gas company can only bill the account holder and how they collect debt is a private matter.

However, you did mention the rules about no heat, which triggered another line of thought - could lack of control constitute "defective" heating equipment, making her obligation to provide working heaters broken?

I called the city and they looked into it. Well, having taken that avenue the city did an "investigation" which constituted calling the landlord. When he called me back I got the "real" story.

The landlord is broke. This means even though she's WILLING to ensure the heat stays on, she can't foot half of it to have it re-activated today. She CERTAINLY can't afford to have a second thermometer installed.

The city planner basically said he can't do anything about this issue directly, since we're legally obligated to pay for the gas per the lease - it being off is "technically" our responcibility. He went on to note, however, that even though she's meeting the city's requirements, there may be a lease violation on her side - we're required to get the bills in our name but due to issues with the premises, it's not possible. His suggestion was to contact an attorney to figure out exactly what each of our obligations are there... Fine, but it does nothing for us today.

I am kind of at peace though... This whole thing has been stressful and I just want a resolution. My wife and I have decided we're going to move, and while we're at our new place, fight over the deposit that we're sure she'll try to withold.

Under Maryland law, we're entitled to three times "wrongfully withheld" deposit, plus 3% simple interest (calculated every 6 months) plus full legal fees. So.. Apartment hunting... Yay.