In-depth Questions about Cider Recipes

Hello!

MAKING CIDER FROM COMMERCIALLY SOLD APPLE JUICES

Im a beginer and want to know about all the variaties in cider. not only for myself – but Im trying to put together a cookbook, and website
Your input would help me greatly! Thank You!

CHOOSING THE RIGHT JUICE

Out of commercially sold Apple juices, what are considered the best for cider brewing, and why?
FOR EXAMPLE:
What are the differences in flavors between a Tree top vs Motts? Or any other type of brand?
And how will that effect the end result?

CHOOSING THE RIGHT SUGAR

Brown sugar, Light Brown Sugar, Cane Sugar, Corn Sugar, Maple Syrup, Honey, Molasses, etc.

What are the differences in flavors?
Will it effect the flavoring while in fermentation stage or will all sugars taste the same after they have been eaten by yeast?
How will they act differently in the fermentation stage?
Is it better to use some types of sugar only for back sweetening?

Check out this book http://www.amazon.com/dp/0881508195/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Also, check out the sticky threads at the top of this forum, especially the one that gives an overview, its very helpful.

I'll give you the same response you'll probably hear from most people, and from my own experiences. The cider you make will taste like a lighter version of whatever juice you use. If you drink a lot of the juices you can buy in stores, it tastes a little watered down to begin with. Most people make apple wine from this because it's cheap and easy. It doesn't make a horrible drink it's just that it takes a lot longer for any flavor to develop and never really tastes like cider. If you want a nice cider, I would only use these as a last resort. If you buy farm-pressed cider a lot of times it's not made from "quality" apples but still makes good cider. Most of the apples used are either windfalls or are damaged some other way. Mostly the problem I've had from farm cider is that it doesn't clear. The best juice is either from a real cidery or the juice you press yourself. Just work with what you can get your hands on, and don't feel like you *must* get the best quality juice if it's too expensive or impossible to get hold of...but the quality of the initial juice makes a huge impact.

As far as additives, just remember that the more you add...the more you take away from the apple flavor. Also...and I don't know how to really explain this...but it takes a lot of sugar, honey, molasses, etc to impart a good flavor...but it doesn't take very much to add bad flavor, if you aren't fond of the flavor to begin with. Also, adding things like brown sugar or honey don't really add as much sweetness as they do flavor. Sugars taste a lot different after the yeast gets hold of it. So for example adding honey doesn't make it taste like honey. I know a lot of people that love honey to death but say mead tastes like vomit.

The best advice I could give is to just jump in and start making cider. I was big on reading books about cider in the beginning (mostly because I was traveling and couldn't brew...just dream). I've learned a lot more from just brewing.

teromous is championing the cause of the true cider makers!! i'm not saying you shouldn't ferment bottled juice and sugar, and have fun doing it, but come on- nothing beats the real stuff, and the joy of fermenting your own pressed cider is incomparable

+1 on using fresh pressed cider.

On the other hand, I make a simple draft-style cider (think Magners) using store bought juice, pectic enzyme, and Nottingham ale yeast. I make it semi-dry (about 1.010 fg) so its got good apple flavor with it, its a little tart, bubbly and refreshing. Its a big hit with most folks who try it. Its not complex, but it is a nice, easy-drinking draft-style cider.

Jim

Got a couple of different cider variations done. Just decided to use this juicer thing I've had stashed in the garage and going to try a Guava-Stawberry Wine. This one will be interesting.

I completely understand how your own pressed cider would be more tastey and even enjoyable to make and claim as your own.

But for the purpose of my project I'm trying to make a cookbook on how you can still make decent good cider out of commercially sold apple juices.

And I'm just trying to learn about the art of that particular process within a 2 weeks time period (thats when my project is due. I'm a graphic design student)

Pappers_ said:

Check out this book http://www.amazon.com/dp/0881508195/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Also, check out the sticky threads at the top of this forum, especially the one that gives an overview, its very helpful.

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Yes I did find the stickies very helpful. It helped me a lot with understanding how yeasts can effect the taste of cider. But not so much particular sugars, or juices.

Carbonellsa said:

I completely understand how your own pressed cider would be more tastey and even enjoyable to make and claim as your own.

But for the purpose of my project I'm trying to make a cookbook on how you can still make decent good cider out of commercially sold apple juices.

And I'm just trying to learn about the art of that particular process within a 2 weeks time period (thats when my project is due. I'm a graphic design student)

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Are you just trying to complete a project, or write a book portraying some kind of knowledge?

For a project, it's fine to use hearsay, but if you are trying to make yourself out as being knowledgeable, then you should spend a year actually making cider and trying different juices, yeasts, temperatures, additives.

Calder said:

Are you just trying to complete a project, or write a book portraying some kind of knowledge?

For a project, it's fine to use hearsay, but if you are trying to make yourself out as being knowledgeable, then you should spend a year actually making cider and trying different juices, yeasts, temperatures, additives.

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Both. I personally enjoy brewing cider- however I'm definitely not an expert. So Like I said in my opening post, I'm doing this for myself, and for my project.

But I want the book to be about making good cider out of juice you can easily buy.

So ya, I'm just trying to see if anyone could help me out with my research. Because I obviously can't complete this in a matter of 2 weeks.

(I hope that I did not offend you in any way, by turning something you love into a 2 week project. And I am fully aware of all the time, and trail and error that is put into brewing. I am just simply asking for help.)

+1 if you are trying to make yourself out as being knowledgeable, then you should spend a year [at least] actually making cider and trying different juices, yeasts, temperatures, additives.

I want the book to be about making good cider out of juice you can easily buy.

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Well, there's the rub. Because most commercial juice doesnt have much taste left once you ferment off the sugar. For a good hard cider mix, you need sweetness, flavor, aromatics, tannin and acid. For a typical supermarket mix, all you need is sweetness, low cost and shelf life. There's a reason that you dont see too many legit winemakers going to the supermarket for their grape juice. Cider is not much different, except that fewer people have a decent point of reference.

That's not to say that you cant make a drinkable cider out of store bought juice, but its not as easy as you might think because the juice is not made for this purpose.

I'm just trying to see if anyone could help me out with my research.

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If you are bound and determined to make cider with store bought juice, I would suggest start by going to some local supermarkets and buying as many different apple juices as you can find. Then taste test them with some friends and make notes on flavor, aroma, finish, etc. You might want to try mixing with raspberry, cranberry, cherry, blueberry, etc. just to make things a bit more interesting. Once you have some juice mixes that you think are decent, there are tons of cider recipes in the recipe section. You could do say, a 4x4 experiment with the 4 best juice mixes and 4 of the best sounding recipes to see how they come out.

I obviously can't complete this in a matter of 2 weeks.

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Well, you have to decide whether you want to make a meaningful contribution to the field of homebrew cider making, or just get credit for repackaging someone else's opinions. If the former, there are a lot of people who dont have access to fresh juice and AFAIK, no one has ever done a good side-by-side comparison fermenting the different commercially available juices, so this might be of value. It will take more than 2 weeks, but if you start now, you should at least have something interesting to report for your project in 2 weeks.

CvilleKevin said:

, For a good hard cider mix, you need sweetness.....

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I enjoy everything you post but have to respectfully disagree with that. I love my bone dry cider more than anything I've made or tried. That being said I'd pay to sit in on one of your parties.

OP. It impossible for you to get good advice like this. Nobody could tell you how to make good cider in a single day.

As far as juice from the store goes there is no consistency. Even really good brands have wild variations. Most of it is weak in every possible way.

I'm just pissy because I have no cider.

I love my bone dry cider more than anything I've made or tried.

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I wont argue with that. I was referring to the raw juice. Gotta make that alcohol out of something. IMHO, the dryer you go, the more important it is to have good juice so that there is something left when the sugar is gone.

Even really good brands have wild variations.

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hmm, that would make sense - in which case doing a brand comparison might not even be all that helpful

I'm just pissy because I have no cider.

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bummer - well if you're ever in VA, let me know. I'm hoping that my stash from this season will carry me through till next Sept. There's a few good dry ones in there.

Thank you so much for your advice. I completely agree and understand everything you have said.

It's actually a bit exciting to hear that there is no real comparison with commercial apple juices. It inspires me to do some experiments. I'm actually going to kroger later today to pick up some juices- So ill get a variety of juices.

wildman said:

As far as juice from the store goes there is no consistency. Even really good brands have wild variations.

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Are you saying that not every gallon of juice you buy from one particular brand will taste exactly the same? Is that really true? I thought that commercial/pasteurized juices are the most consistent?

Yes they are the most consistant but just because motts is better than treetop today doesn't mean the same is going to be true 3 months from now. I know I've checked it out. I still use frozen concentrate to prime.

I hope you went over the preservatives issue when buying cider from the store.

Corporate products strive for consistency in their producs and will often have to alter their blend in order to do so. This is true for many producs, not just cider. They will often have chemists doing frequent tests to make sure their product is as close to the last one as possible. However, with products that are grown, they may develop differently from year to year.
Growing temperature (both summer and winter), amount of water, nutrients or lack thereof (I recall someone talking about additions of... nitrogen? potassium? vs no addition and it's effect on the fruit and perhaps nitrogen content in the fruit for yeast production).

It's definately less to consider when buying cider from a corporate brand at least, compared to hearing this from a farm/cider mill. My last gallon of cider from two weeks ago was mentioned to have about 7 varieties of apple in it. Not that I really understand them as well as I wish. (Hey, it's early, I've only done cider for one season.)

Then too, cider isn't as popular as wine so we don't hear about the different varieties as often except for eating apples.