Cidery beer /// any one know the cause.

Hi i love my home brew .
But CIDERY BEER i dont like.
I do extract.
John bull or coppers.
5 gal in a conical.
Any one know why this happens. thanks john.

I expect you fermented at too high a temperature. Did you control fermentation temps?

I use a brewbelt in the winter but not really sure of the fermentaion temp.
temp could be the proublem.!!!!!!!!!

I've never tried this myself, but I've heard that if you kick start fermentation again at the lower temperature, the yeast will clean up all the fruity esthers when it finishes. Might be something to try if it's undrinkable. Just add some malt and see what happens.

is there sugar in the recipe?

Ok thanks for temp advice.
It is never undrinkable but i never had this proublem untill the last few batches.

Yes
I use regular table sugar.
It seemed to work for the first 8 mounths or so.

my second batch ever had a strong cider/green apple flavor that turned out to be wild yeast (most likely didn't have a good seal on my starter bottle).

buddy said:

Yes
I use regular table sugar.
It seemed to work for the first 8 mounths or so.

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That can be a problem depending on how much you use. Small amounts of table sugar (~5% of fermentable sugars or so) can be ok, but if you add more table sugar than that, it can impart a cidery taste.

Well, sugar in beer is noted to create cidery flavors in "regular" beers. I would guess that the combination of high temperatures and the sugar really escalated the off-flavor. If you post your recipe, we can pick it out for sure for you.

buddy said:

Hi i love my home brew .
But CIDERY BEER i dont like.
I do extract.
John bull or coppers.
5 gal in a conical.
Any one know why this happens. thanks john.

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That happened with my first ever home brew. I used 1 kg of regular sugar with a beer kit. Tasted like cider! Don't use regular sugar, and try not to go past 21C/70F if you can, or more of that green apple/cider taste will come out. And most important, sterilize everything and you'll be fine.

If you're looking for a cheap lite beer, use dextrose (corn sugar), max 3 cups (1/2 kg); any more and it will start to do the same thing and taste like cider/green apples. You'll get about 3 - 3.5% alcohol.

What I do to make a nice summer beer is use 1 cup dextrose and 500g lite malt extract. About $20 or so for a pretty good lite summer beer with a basic kit. I like Coopers kits for a budget brew.

That's my 2 cents worth.

Belgian beers use table sugar, and they do not taste cidery.

Cidery flavors happen when there is not enough nutrients from the malt to help the yeast eat the sugar. The general rule of thumb is you can have up to 30% sugar base without any off flavors.

The problem with the kits is they often require 40-50% sugar base, and often contain glucose in the extract itself. To offset the thinning, they tend to contain more dextrins as well.

You also get cidery flavors from a green beer. If they were good in the past, then maybe a difference in temp has effect the fermentation rates, and it is aging slower then usual?

HP_Lovecraft said:

Belgian beers use table sugar, and they do not taste cidery.

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You are right about the level of nutrients for the yeast, but Belgian sugars are also usually candied and/or inverted, by my understanding. This modifies the sucrose molecule in such a way as to make the fructose part of the molecule more easily fermented and leaves less of the fruity/cidery taste behind.

Thanks to all for the input.
My next brew of stout i will try corn suger and less of it.
And try to control the temp.
I thing i over do the sugar in trying to bring up the alchol content.
thanks john.

In my beers, I don't use any sugar at all. Like it was mentioned earlier, Belgian beers may be an exception. The are "bigger" beers and need to be made a little thinner and drier, and sugar can help with that.

I would suggest that in your next beer, you use NO sugar (corn or otherwise) and if you need to boost the ABV, either follow a recipe from here at HBT (we can help with that very easily) or add a little more malt extract. This will make a huge difference in the flavor and texture of your beer. Sometimes a beer with a slightly lower ABV will actually taste much better than one that has the ABV boosted with corn sugar. Corn sugar tends to make the beers thinner and drier, and not appropriate at all in a stout especially.

get some light malt extract to boost your alcohol. skip the sugar. it doesn't belong in anything BUT belgian beers

DeathBrewer said:

skip the sugar. it doesn't belong in anything BUT belgian beers

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I would also add barleywines to that list. But yeah, very few beers need sugar.

mew said:

I would also add barleywines to that list. But yeah, very few beers need sugar.

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Hmmm... with the Coppers kits, on the Coppers website it says to use a minimum of 1 cup dextrose, as it's a simple sugar for the dry yeast to eat and grow quickly. I guess they want it to be near fullproof.

This is what I do now; 1 cup dextrose and the rest malt extract, keep the temp under control and it makes all the difference.

If you would like to use table sugar, I would recommend you to add a little yeast nutrients and this may get rid of the ciddery taste. But yes, getting rid of the sugar and using malt extract is the best way and it will in fact make your beer taste better.

HP_Lovecraft said:

Belgian beers use table sugar, and they do not taste cidery.

Cidery flavors happen when there is not enough nutrients from the malt to help the yeast eat the sugar. The general rule of thumb is you can have up to 30% sugar base without any off flavors.

The problem with the kits is they often require 40-50% sugar base, and often contain glucose in the extract itself. To offset the thinning, they tend to contain more dextrins as well.

You also get cidery flavors from a green beer. If they were good in the past, then maybe a difference in temp has effect the fermentation rates, and it is aging slower then usual?

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I agree and you raise some good points with the possiblity of acetaldehyde/green beer.

The fear when it comes to using sugars and off-flavors is a bit misplaced IMHO. Of course many of us started out brewing kits w/ lots of corn sugar, fermenting w/ those packs of dry yeast on the top of the can plenty warm and then pointed to the corn sugar as the source of the less than stellar results. When used properly, there is nothing wrong with including sugars in a recipe... It's an ingredient with a predictable influence on the end result.

brewt00l said:

When used properly, there is nothing wrong with including sugars in a recipe... It's an ingredient with a predictable influence on the end result.

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+1.

I've stopped using invert sugar in my recipes. Cane sugar is now used instead. There is no difference in taste. Invert sugar and clear candi sugar are a waste of money imho. And used properly, you get proper results, which isn't cidery.

brewt00l said:

The fear when it comes to using sugars and off-flavors is a bit misplaced IMHO. Of course many of us started out brewing kits w/ lots of corn sugar, fermenting w/ those packs of dry yeast on the top of the can plenty warm and then pointed to the corn sugar as the source of the less than stellar results. When used properly, there is nothing wrong with including sugars in a recipe... It's an ingredient with a predictable influence on the end result.

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yeah, it's predictable. it'll make the beer drier and too much will make it cidery.

sugar really doesn't have any place in a beer unless you're trying to dry it out a bit. that's why it's in belgians...it can also be used to lighten brews such as cream ales, etc.

but it shouldn't be just thrown into a recipe to boost the alcohol. that's not it's purpose.

DeathBrewer said:

yeah, it's predictable. it'll make the beer drier and too much will make it cidery.

sugar really doesn't have any place in a beer unless you're trying to dry it out a bit. that's why it's in belgians...it can also be used to lighten brews such as cream ales, etc.

but it shouldn't be just thrown into a recipe to boost the alcohol. that's not it's purpose.

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lather, rinse, repeat.

I got an intense cider flavor in my high-gravity beer after ~ 11 days of fermenting. I drew a hydro sample because I'm about to increase volume.

But from what I read in this thread, can I infer that at this stage in the game, cidery flavors are a normal part of the fermentation process? Assuming I keep my fermentation temps low, of course.

At what point are cidery flavors considered a flaw? One month? Six?