Poor Efficiency

A friend and me brewed a double batch of Orfy's Old Speckled Hen Clone recently. We did the two batches one after the other on the same equipment following the same recipe. Hit mash temps spot on. I forgot to read the recipe and we ended up only mashing for 60 minutes instead of 90. English sparged (I think that's the right term? Drained all the mash water, then added the sparge water and waited for it to settle again..) with equal amounts of water at temps probably closer to 140 over about a half hour per batch. Probably collected and boiled about 20L per batch. Topped up to the full 23 before pitching. Both batches had an OG of 1.040 just before pitching.

This is only my second AG batch, but it still seems a little low to me. I was wondering what might be possible to improve that a bit. Should I have sparged hotter? Or longer? Would the extra 30 minutes on the mash have helped that at all? Should I have tried to collect more for the boil?

Just looking for any tips to improve efficiency a little bit. Thanks!

2 Things that helped my efficiency a lot:
1) milling my own grain.. I was getting ~60% with the crush from my local shop. That went into the mid 80's when i started milling my own grain.
2) I picked up a few more points when my sparge water got the grain bed up to ~170*F to fully rinse the sugars from the grain.

Yes, get the grainbed up to 168ish F during the sparge. What I do is a batch sparge so I take my sparge water up to about 185*F, pour 1/2 of it onto the grain bed. stir like hell, give it a couple of minutes (maybe 5 minutes), vorleuf(sp?), drain, then I pour in my second 1/2 of the sparge water which has cooled down a bit to maybe 175*F over the last few minutes. Stir, wait, vorleuf, drain.

It is best to send all of the water that you will be using through the mash / sparge as opposed to topping up later.

I doubt that mashing for 90 vs 60 minutes would make any difference in efficiency, but it could improve attenuation, and make for a drier beer.
I've never noticed any difference in efficiency from milling my own grain, but lots of people do, and I may have been lucky with the crush from the LHBS.
I did notice a big increase in efficiency (10%) when I adjusted my sparge temperatures from the low 150's to the high 160's.

-a.

How much wort did you leave behind in your mash tun? What was your intended starting gravity and final gravity? How much did you boil off? How many lbs of grain did you use? What was your mash temp at mash in and what was your temp before sparging? Once you know your constants, then you can figure out where you are losing efficiency points.

Based on my experience a low gravity usually means you used too much water, thus diluting your wort too much. A good crush is important, as is getting the mash up to 170 during the sparge.

I'm pretty new to this board so I hope this isn't out of place.

Firstly what efficiency would you expect going on your other brew? Does it fit with the suggested efficiency from the recipe or should you have adjusted to hit the target gravity?

Efficiency can relate to various things: equipment, sparge temp, grain crush and stirring during the sparge to name a few.

Did you take a pre-boil reading? Efficiency is set at this point - following that it simply relates to the proportion of sugar to liquid so if you boil longer you get less liquid with a higher density.

Also I'm assuming your pitching temperature was somewhere around the 20 deg C mark but if it was hotter that may give you an extra point or so.

For this brew you can accept a slightly lower ABV or you could bump it up with a touch of extract. For the next, check the crush, adjust the recipe to the approximate efficiency you're getting, increase sparge temps a touch and experiment with gently stirring the mash. I actually found stirring dropped my efficiency a small amount but many people swear it helps.

Hey, thanks for all the replies! Apparently, I've got some changes to make in my procedure.

First, answer some questions.

How much wort did you leave behind in your mash tun?

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Hardly any? Whatever was left on the bottom of the manifold, or soaked into the grain.

What was your intended starting gravity and final gravity?

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The recipe says we were aiming for SG=1.050 and FG=1.013, which I didn't adjust at all, but probably should have.

How much did you boil off?

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I'm not 100% sure on this, we boiled with covers on the pots, but I'm sure we still lost a fair amount, probably a couple litres. Is there any good way to measure this? Does anyone have some sort of volume markings in or on their boil pots?

How many lbs of grain did you use?

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4.5kg, so about 10lbs?

What was your mash temp at mash in and what was your temp before sparging?

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At mash in, we started with about 13L = 14qts of water at 77C = 170F, after the thermometer had a minute to adjust we got a reading of 68C = 154.4F, and by the end of the mash, we were at 66C = 150.8F.

Based on my experience a low gravity usually means you used too much water, thus diluting your wort too much.

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Well, 9.9lbs of grain with 13.7qts of water is about 1.4 quarts/lb. That's less stiff than I thought, actually. But, we only sparged with an equal amount of water, so I'm not sure that would be the issue.

Did you take a pre-boil reading?

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No, I did not. This is probably one place where I went wrong. The SG readings that we took were after the boil and the cooling, immediately before pitching the yeast.

Firstly what efficiency would you expect going on your other brew? Does it fit with the suggested efficiency from the recipe or should you have adjusted to hit the target gravity?

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I can't find my brew notes on my last beer, I've moved twice since then, and they've just gotten lost in a sea of crap, which sucks. But I'm pretty sure that my efficiency on that one was somewhere around the 60% mark. But based on the last question there, I may have gotten the measurements at the wrong times, so that could be skewed as well. And yeah, 60% isn't what the recipe was made for, and I didn't adjust for that, my bad. This brew was a bit of a last minute thing, so I just picked a recipe for a beer that I knew I liked and hoped for the best.

Also I'm assuming your pitching temperature was somewhere around the 20 deg C mark but if it was hotter that may give you an extra point or so.

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We probably pitched a little higher than that, actually. We only chilled the wort to about 40C, as I don't have a chiller. I've got about 2 feet of snow on my back deck, so the pots just went out in the snowbank for a while until they chilled a bit. But then they sat in the carboys inside while we cleaned up, so I'm sure we probably pitched around 30C or so. And yeah, I probably should have adjusted the reading for that. I kind of forgot to do that too.

For this brew you can accept a slightly lower ABV or you could bump it up with a touch of extract.

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Yeah, this brew should be fine if it runs a little low. The LHBS didn't have Northern Brewer, and I didn't know offhand what a good substitute was, and they recommended more Kent Goldings, so the bittering hops we used didn't have a very high AA%, so in the end it may turn out to be more of a mild than a bitter, which is fine.

From most of the comments that are here, I'm thinking that a big part of my problem is sparging too cool. I don't have any kind of propane burner or anything, so I'm using two 20qt stock pots to boil. In this particular brew, I lautered into those two pots, so I had to heat up the sparge water in dutch ovens and regular cooking pots, so I couldn't get a lot done at once. We ended up not heating the water for very long because we needed to heat more than one batch, and we figured it would be better to go a little lower, but have all the water added close to the same time, than to try to go higher, but in a couple of smaller doses spaced further apart.

I think next time I'll run the sparge into a spare brewing bucket and heat up the sparge water in the brew pots, and then once the wort is collected, pour from the bucket into the pots. And definitely bump up the temperatures a little bit.

When should I be taking readings? I've been doing some reading on the site here, and it seems like I should be checking gravity of first runnings, final runnings, and pre-boil? (From an efficiency point of view, at least.) Do most people check gravity that often during a brew day? I've only been checking right before I pitch the yeast so far.

We're going to try to be brewing either 10 gallons once a month, or 5 gallons every 2 weeks, so we should have plenty of opportunity to fix the methods a little bit.

Thanks for all the help so far, all!

Unless you're making a partigyle or sparging until the gravity reaches a certain point rather than the wort reaches a certain volume, I'd just take 1 gravity reading before you start the boil. Obviously you'll need to adjust for temperature. Then take one more just prior to pitching (or just after - I can't see the harm as the yeast probably won't digest a hell of a lot in those minutes).

There are reasons why you might take gravity readings as you drain each running but at this point I'd concentrate more on getting the volume you want and calculating what efficiency that gives you. Then you can adjust future recipes to that efficiency. If you think the efficiency can be improved you can then work on how to do so.

You say your first efficiency was probably around 60%. The recipe was for 70% efficiency. I'm not sure exactly how many more gravity points that would give you but it looks like that's at least part of your answer. Anyone else's recipe always needs to be adjusted for your system and getting to know how your system works is probably the most important thing before worrying about all the other bits. Work out your grist to liquor amounts, your mash out temp and amounts (if you M.O), your sparge temps and amounts and what that gives you. Go from there.

I struggled with low efficiency on my first few batches as well. What has really helped me nail down the problem was the Batch-Sparging-Efficiency-Spreadsheet from the Troubleshooting Brewhouse Efficiency page on braukaiser.com. I've been able to increase my efficiency into Boiler from 60% to almost 85% using the same equipment.

I take 3 readings on brew day:

1) First Wort Gravity - The first runnings from the mash tun. This will tell you how good your conversion efficiency was.

2) Pre Boil Gravity - Stir all the collected wort really well before you take the sample. This reading will tell you your overall conversion and lauter efficiency.

3) Original Gravity - The gravity of the wort before you pitch the yeast. This will tell you your overall brewhouse efficiency.

Plugging in those numbers along with the grain/water used in the spreadsheet will tell you where you're taking the biggest hit. At first my conversion efficiency was a little low but my lauter efficiency was even worse. I switched to mashing a little thicker and split my sparge into two rounds making sure to stir very well each time. My lauter efficiency improved significantly and the thicker mash also improved my conversion efficiency.

For some people a thinner mash seems to improve their efficiency. I suspect it has to do with water profile but I haven't gotten to the point where I want to get into water analysis or pH testing of the mash. My efficiency is dialed in and my beers are turning out better each time.

what mash thickness are you working with? I just did that spead sheet and I'm getting 75% to the kettle but only 65% out of the kettle? Any comment on that.

Steelers77 said:

what mash thickness are you working with? I just did that spead sheet and I'm getting 75% to the kettle but only 65% out of the kettle? Any comment on that.

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My last batch had a mash thickness of 1.32 qts/lb (I adjust my mash thickness to leave me with 4 gallons of sparge water). Efficiency into the kettle was 86% and out of the kettle was 78%. I've always been a little baffled by how big that drop is but I assume it has to do with the volume lost to trub and chiller.

Ok, one more question, well two, what was your pre-boil volume and your post boil volume? I'm still thinking you used too much water overall. (Tip: Mark one of your long spoons with gallon increments, you can measure your volumes easily that way)

Also, you have to boil with the lid off. You aren't going to get good evaporation and boil off. This also gave you a lower OG.

For gravities, you should check after your mash and you have drained into the kettle before your boil. You can then check your conversion efficiency. Then you need to check after your boil and after your chill but before you pitch your yeast. I use a refractometer for this with temperature correction. It makes things easy.

mullet said:

From most of the comments that are here, I'm thinking that a big part of my problem is sparging too cool. I don't have any kind of propane burner or anything, so I'm using two 20qt stock pots to boil. In this particular brew, I lautered into those two pots, so I had to heat up the sparge water in dutch ovens and regular cooking pots, so I couldn't get a lot done at once. We ended up not heating the water for very long because we needed to heat more than one batch, and we figured it would be better to go a little lower, but have all the water added close to the same time, than to try to go higher, but in a couple of smaller doses spaced further apart.

I think next time I'll run the sparge into a spare brewing bucket and heat up the sparge water in the brew pots, and then once the wort is collected, pour from the bucket into the pots. And definitely bump up the temperatures a little bit.

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Up until recently I had to boil in my strike/sparge pots which are small. I've recently converted a keg and have a 38 L pot as well but previous sizes were 10 L and 15 L. I did exactly what you're suggesting - run off into a fermenter until sparging is complete the rack from the fermenter into the brew pots.


Just noticed, thanks to the post above, that you topped up with water which would have dropped the gravity too. That's why taking a preboil gravity reading is essential to calculating your efficiency which may actually have been fine.

HarkinBanks said:

Ok, one more question, well two, what was your pre-boil volume and your post boil volume? I'm still thinking you used too much water overall.

Also, you have to boil with the lid off. You aren't going to get good evaporation and boil off. This also gave you a lower OG.

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I'm not sure. My post boil volume was probably 18-20L or so, because it wasn't very full in the carboy. So my pre-boil volume was probably reasonably close to this, since I boiled with the covers on. (Which we started doing because we wanted it to reach boil faster, we just never stopped after it was boiling I guess. I'll be sure to take those off next time.) Like I said, I sparged with 12L, and I also got whatever wasn't soaked in to the grain from the first 12L. So, the first part probably was closer to 8L after the mash, so probably went into the boil with about 20L or so?

HarkinBanks said:

(Tip: Mark one of your long spoons with gallon increments, you can measure your volumes easily that way)

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This idea is fantastic. I was thinking about trying to engrave volume markers on the inside of my pot. Marking a spoon would be so much easier.

manticle said:

Up until recently I had to boil in my strike/sparge pots which are small. I've recently converted a keg and have a 38 L pot as well but previous sizes were 10 L and 15 L. I did exactly what you're suggesting - run off into a fermenter until sparging is complete the rack from the fermenter into the brew pots.

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When you run off into the fermentor, how do you account for wanting to have more liquid at the start of the boil than you want at the end? Like, you can only fill a bucket so full, and if you boil off a bunch, wouldn't you end up a little low at the end? I suppose I could stop by the LHBS and get a 30L bucket, that would hold enough liquid for the boil.

EvilGnome6 said:

What has really helped me nail down the problem was the Batch-Sparging-Efficiency-Spreadsheet from the Troubleshooting Brewhouse Efficiency page on braukaiser.com.

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Looks like a lot of good information there, I'll take a read through it. I don't think I took quite enough measurements this time around to really do too much looking up in spreadsheets, but I'll be sure to do so next time.

Thanks again!

I only ever do single batches and my maximum preboil is only ever going to be 32L. Most of my fermenters are 30 L and will take a bit more. By the time I got to that much liquid in the fermenter, I'd have finished with at least one of the sparge pots so could run off into that.

Luckily such stuffing around is a thing of the past.

ajf said:

I doubt that mashing for 90 vs 60 minutes would make any difference in efficiency, but it could improve attenuation, and make for a drier beer.-a.

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With poorly milled grain, it sure does. With well milled grain, you probably have full conversion in 30 minutes.

manticle said:

There are reasons why you might take gravity readings as you drain each running but at this point I'd concentrate more on getting the volume you want and calculating what efficiency that gives you. T

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I'm going to disagree with this. Taking a gravity reading of the first runnings will essentially tell you what your conversion efficiency is, and thats a very important number when you're troubleshooting efficiency problems. Fluctuating conversion percentages will cause huge swings in brewhouse efficiency and wort quality.


Edit: Orfy already got it.

My point was to keep it simple early on - not that you shouldn't ever take a gravity reading of first runnings.

Grain based brewing is as simple or as technical as you want it to be. As I said - there are reasons that you might (as you suggested) but for the first couple of brews it's better not to overcomplicate. Add new things in one at a time.

To my mind, getting to know your system and how it works is the most important thing when starting out. From that comes proper recipe design (and adjustment of others' recipes) and then step by step improvement of the process and eventually system. Others may work differently I know.

Here's an interesting tidbit. We racked them to secondaries last night. Both batches are at 1.005 as of last night, when the predicted FG was 1.013. Does that say anything about efficiency? Seems to be the opposite of what I would have expected.

Nope, just means you finished on the dry side with whatever yeast you used. Also means you probably mashed at a lower temp. If you mash hotter, you will finish a bit higher.

We've put in a couple of brews since I originally made this post, and we're still not getting real great efficiency.

Here's the last mash we made:

8.8lbs 2-Row
2.2lbs Victory Malt
1.1lbs Crystal 60L
0.5lbs Chocolate Malt

Mashed at 65*C (149F) for 60 minutes. Used 12.6 qts of water. Hit the mash temp spot on, at the end of the hour temp was only 64*C (147F), so that's not a bad drop. We had been mashing at 68*C (154F) in the past, and getting pretty poor efficiencies, so we decided to drop the temp a bit to see if we could get a little more fermentable wort.

Collected 7 gallons of wort for the boil. Took the gravity of the final runnings, and it read as 1.010. Gravity of the wort pre-boil was 1.030. Problem with that is that apparently hydrometers are far more sensitive to temperature than I had initially anticipated. Let the sample cool in the fridge until it was room temperature, took another reading and got 1.042.

Based on PPG data from this table, at 100% efficiency we should get a pre-boil gravity of 1.066. So 1.042 puts efficiency at ~64%, which is still pretty low.

Post boil, we had a little over 5 galllons at 1.050, which was only 2 points shy of our target gravity, and since it was at ~35-40*C (95-104F) that can probably be adjusted up a little bit, which means we probably hit the target pretty well.

So, based on the 1.010 gravity of the final runnings, I thought the problem was almost definitely mash conversion problem, but then after discovering the gravity inaccuracy due to temperature, maybe it was a lautering problem to some extent as well. However, when starting the siphon for the final batch of sparge water, the wort definitely didn't taste sweet at all at that point.

I think we had a pretty good crush, I've gotten some advice in this thread on what a good crush should look like, so I think that shouldn't have been a problem.

I'm going to take a look at a local water report and see if there's something way out of whack that might be causing trouble, but I'm otherwise basically at a loss for where to look now. I had what I think was a decent crush, hit mash temps correctly, have had a similar efficiency at several mash thicknesses, thought we lautered pretty well, and still getting reasonably low efficiency. I'm not really upset by it, as I have no problem with just adding extra grain to the recipe. It's just a matter of curiosity. And also a little bit that I have to crank all the extra grain through the mill by hand, haha.

I also had a poor efficiency and got a hols of my local water report. I found my TA was high so I started cutting my water with RO and making other mineral adjustment based on the calculations I made from this site: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com
It has helped, I also did a protein rest on my last 2 brews so that may also be helping.

One other thing, I am doing a hybrid batch sparge. Infusing half the sparge water vorlaufing, then adding more water as I drain. This has helped me pick up some efficiency as well.

Next time check what the gravity of the first runnings are. That will allow you to separate whether this is a conversion issue, or a lauter issue.