Saison infected my equipment?

Ok, my issue is pretty much all my beers for months now taste fine after a couple weeks in the bottle but gradually get more dry, tart and carbonated to the point of being undrinkable. I have made saisons (that came out fine) with this equipment and I've heard of that causing problems so maybe I just need to replace all my plastic? Is it likely that thinks like my autosiphon would house whatever funk is causing this?

One of the tell tale indicators I've noticed is that all of the "infected" bottles have a film (yeast?) on the sides of the bottle after conditioning instead of just at the bottom. I've also noticed that if I let the bottles sit long enough that some will develop a little mini krausen line.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

ETA: Maybe not a saison problem. I am pretty careful about sanitation though and this has been a consistent issue for at least 5 batches now. That's what leads me to think that my equipment may be carrying something.

Saison yeast is sacchromyces like any other standard beer yeast. The problem is that you aren't cleaning and sanitizing your equipment properly and that you're contaminating your beer with some sort of wild yeast.

Yes, I would never use the same equipment for both. I am not sure I want to make beers with bacteria in the same location. But, that being said, I would try soaking EVERY THING in a strong bleach solution, 10ppm should do. Then wash and rinse them thoroughly.
Household bleach is 5% sodium Hyperchlorite, so around 1 ppm = 1
milligram/Liter.

TNGabe said:

Saison yeast is sacchromyces like any other standard beer yeast. The problem is that you aren't cleaning and sanitizing your equipment properly and that you're contaminating your beer with some sort of wild yeast.

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TNGabe is right. Saison yeast is just yeast. It is not some super ninja yeast that will infect everything.

It sounds like you have a sanitizing problem. I brew a lot of saisons and never have a problem.

Unfortunately, there are way to many, wannabe rocket scientist, in these forums to get accurate information, Saison's are brewed with Brittanomyces, a totally different animal than most brew yeast. Also my guess is you bought a yeast starter for this from one of the big yeast suppliers. Not only does it contain Lactobacillus,, same bacteria in sour dough bread, also produces lactic acid, Brettanomyces, entirely a different yeast strain from most yeast in brewing, and Pediococcus, a bacteria that produces acetic acid. These bacteria are present in your environment, when you concentrate them in a brewing situation, you will cross contaminate every thing in the area, they are hard to kill.
So don't let these guys lead you to believe there is no problem. You, Sumo have identified a problem, so extreme sanitation will be needed, beyond a little starsan.

I really wish people would make sure they know what they are talking about, before giving out poor advice. You do no one any favors, talking out your azz.

Good luck Sumo, let us know how the clean-up goes.

johnnv said:

Unfortunately, there are way to many, wannabe rocket scientist, in these forums to get accurate information, Saison's are brewed with Brittanomyces, a totally different animal than most brew yeast. Also my guess is you bought a yeast starter for this from one of the big yeast suppliers. Not only does it contain Lactobacillus,, same bacteria in sour dough bread, also produces lactic acid, Brettanomyces, entirely a different yeast strain from most yeast in brewing, and Pediococcus, a bacteria that produces acetic acid. These bacteria are present in your environment, when you concentrate them in a brewing situation, you will cross contaminate every thing in the area, they are hard to kill.
So don't let these guys lead you to believe there is no problem. You, Sumo have identified a problem, so extreme sanitation will be needed, beyond a little starsan.

I really wish people would make sure they know what they are talking about, before giving out poor advice. You do no one any favors, talking out your azz.

Good luck Sumo, let us know how the clean-up goes.

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I nominate this for post of the year.

You're either trolling, or just really, really wrong on several levels. You're also violating the forum rules. Thanks for the laugh though.

TNGABE, I call you out personally. I don't usually do this, I hate trolls, I am not one. Please, in a scientific way, even layman terms, explain to me why I am wrong!
These bacteria are 10k times smaller than a yeast cell and can hide in every nook and cranny, scratch, blemish in anything and won't be killed very easy.
TNGABE, you don't like to be called wrong, I am sorry, your wrong!. Now explain to me why I am wrong and I will concede.
You called Saison yeast sacchromyces, when it is really, Brettanomyces. It's not the same, or near any sacchromyces strains. It does not reproduce the same. Many things about it is different.
I am waiting for a reply to explain my ignorance!

1. Saison yeast is saccharomyces. There are saison cultures mixed with brettanomyces, but not all saison yeast cultures contain brett. Most of the commercially available strains do not contain brett.
2. Noticing a line from a mini-krausen in the bottle is at least somewhat normal. Sometimes I see it, sometimes I don't.
3. Yeast sticking to the side of the bottle, I have only seen with saisons, but I have read that others have experienced this with other yeasts.
4. "...but gradually get more dry, tart and carbonated..." Assuming that you verified that fermentation had completed prior to bottling, this is an indication of an infection. Granted that saisons tend to be more dry and tart than other beers, so I can understand how you started thinking about a potential saison issue, but even saisons only ferment so far and require oxygen. What you have described requires a bacteria or yeast that thrives in an acidic, anaerobic environment.

So, you do have something in there, just not what you originally thought. I had a brett infection a little over a year ago; after cleaning and double-checking that everything was clean I soaked everything (primary, autosiphon, racking tube, carboy and airlock) in potassium metabisulfite solution; if it happened again I would soak in Star-San.

What do you normally use for cleaning and sanitizing? How do you clean your racking tube?

Hey johnnv, think you're confusing Belgian Ale Yeast (of which Saison is one) with Lambics. There are sour Saison’s, but they are not made solely with the Belgian Saison strain commercially available from Wyeast and White Labs.

You called Saison yeast sacchromyces, when it is really, Brettanomyces. It's not the same, or near any sacchromyces strains. It does not reproduce the same. Many things about it is different.

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So not true. Do some research and you will find that Saison yeasts are in fact sacchromyces strains. Let' look at the most common Saison strains. WY 3711... no brett. WY3724. again no brett. White labs. 565.. no brett. White Labs 566 no brett. Belle Saison... guess what.. no brett.

Here is the page for Bele Saison.
http://www.danstaryeast.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/tds-belle-saison-english_0.pdf
See what it is?

I really wish people would make sure they know what they are talking about, before giving out poor advice. You do no one any favors, talking out your azz.

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You really should take your own advice......

TNGabe and I have had a few disagreements over the years, but I agree with him on this. I know he brews a lot of Saisons and Belgians and really does know what he is talking about.

johnnv said:

TNGABE, I call you out personally. I don't usually do this, I hate trolls, I am not one. Please, in a scientific way, even layman terms, explain to me why I am wrong!
These bacteria are 10k times smaller than a yeast cell and can hide in every nook and cranny, scratch, blemish in anything and won't be killed very easy.
TNGABE, you don't like to be called wrong, I am sorry, your wrong!. Now explain to me why I am wrong and I will concede.
You called Saison yeast sacchromyces, when it is really, Brettanomyces. It's not the same, or near any sacchromyces strains. It does not reproduce the same. Many things about it is different.
I am waiting for a reply to explain my ignorance!

Click to expand...

Saison yeast from the big yeast companies is saccharomyces. They do sell blends that contain brett, and it's very common for saisson brewers to add brett.

Brettanomyces is yeast (thus the '-myces'), not bactieria.

Yeast cells are about 10x bigger than bacteria. I can see both, easily in my scope.

Starsan kills bacteria and yeast easily. I admit to launching a bleach bomb on my equipment about a year ago after brewing a bunch of sour beers, but according to Charley Talley at Five Star, Starsan is fine.

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/3/9/0/390...87677151&hwt=dd44572a41b3a7765c534e175a14d176

Thanks bitigol, nice to see some intelligence in the discussion. I think, perhaps a bacteria infection in Sumo's case would be a viable explanation. Yeast cells are killed easy enough, bacteria can hide, protect themselves with protective coverings and do this in microscopic places. These bacteria can also screw with the fermentation, but make the beer far more acidic.
I only bring these elements of brewing up for educational purpose. So in the case Saison, you are dealing with one or more strains of yeast and likely two strains of bacteria.

I now feel like taking out my upper dental plate & stabbing myself in both eyes. thanks Nevada Slim.

johnnv said:

Unfortunately, there are way to many, wannabe rocket scientist in these forums to get accurate information

Click to expand...

johnnv said:

I really wish people would make sure they know what they are talking about, before giving out poor advice. You do no one any favors, talking out your azz.

Click to expand...

johnnv said:

TNGABE, I call you out personally.

Click to expand...

johnnv said:

nice to see some intelligence in the discussion.

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If you are looking for trouble, keep talking that way. I've got a very short fuse for trolls.

You'd do better to stop talking and start listening. The information you've posted in this thread was completely wrong, which is common enough, but don't harass others who are posting the correct information.

johnnv said:

I think, perhaps a bacteria infection in Sumo's case would be a viable explanation.

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This I agree with. I've gotten films inside bottles regularly when bottling with lactobacillus.

Cleaning everything with a strong starsan solution, or bleach (me!), will take care of it.

Thanks passedpawn, good informative link. In fact those home brew guys got me going in the early days. I like the Starsan info, seems it works better than I thought, and I will check the PH from now on.
So, moral of the story is, clean, clean again and make sure it's clean and sanitize right before use!

John,

I'll jump in. Here's Danstar's info on their saison:

Microbiological Properties:

&bull; Classified as Saccharomyces cerevisiae &bull; Top-fermenting yeast &bull; Typical analysis of active dry strain: &bull; Solids 93%-95% &bull; Living yeast cells &ge;5 x 109 per gram of dry yeast &bull; Wild yeast <1 per 106 yeast cells* (Lysine method) &bull; Bacteria <1 per 106 yeast cells* &bull; Finished product is released to market only after passing a rigorous series of tests *According to ASBC and EBC methods of analysis

I imagine that the other yeast providers have similar info on their websites.

It would appear that you might be thinking of something other than saison. No bacteria in saison. Just yeast. Well, trace amounts.

I've made several farmhouse style beers, followed by non-saison styles. Never had an issue. I use better bottle carboys. Just starsan after cleaning with PBW.

Botigol, I all ways rinse my racking tubes after use, initially and clean them with starsan, I found a wall paper tray, from your home supplier to be conducive to cleaning any of the long skinny stuff, cheap and hold about 1 - 2 gallons of solution. Great for lab thermometers, hydrometers also.

Don't listen to johnnv, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Whatever is going on, it is not likely to be a saison specific problem. Look at your process, cleaning and sanitizing. Saison yeast, even blends with brett, is easily killed by brewing sanitizers.

This thread is amazing.

I can't believe the amount of misinformation itt, and lol at telling Gabe he doesn't know what he is talking about.

Sumo2000 said:

Ok, my issue is pretty much all my beers for months now taste fine after a couple weeks in the bottle but gradually get more dry, tart and carbonated to the point of being undrinkable. I have made saisons (that came out fine) with this equipment and I've heard of that causing problems so maybe I just need to replace all my plastic? Is it likely that thinks like my autosiphon would house whatever funk is causing this?

One of the tell tale indicators I've noticed is that all of the "infected" bottles have a film (yeast?) on the sides of the bottle after conditioning instead of just at the bottom. I've also noticed that if I let the bottles sit long enough that some will develop a little mini krausen line.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

ETA: Maybe not a saison problem. I am pretty careful about sanitation though and this has been a consistent issue for at least 5 batches now. That's what leads me to think that my equipment may be carrying something.

Click to expand...

go ahead and spend a day washing and sanitizing all of your gear. i don't like using bleach but i have and it works well when properly diluted. my favorite sanitizer is star san, it will kill bugs, yeast and is no rinse.

johnnv said:

So in the case Saison, you are dealing with one or more strains of yeast and likely two strains of bacteria.

Click to expand...

the vast majority of saisons - 90%, maybe more - are made with a single strain of yeast. that yeast is a saccharomyces cerevisiae - regular brewing yeast (like other strains of sacch, saison yeasts have been bred for certain flavor characteristics). a minority of saisons also use brett, and even less use bugs or brett only.

perhaps you are confused with lambics or flanders reds? those can contain several strains of yeast, and several strains of brett, and lacto & pedio. but not saisons.