Beers allways turn out a little sour

Hey folks,
I already have three all-grain batches under my belt. The problem is only, that all three did turn out a little sour. Definitely not infected, a friend of mine checked my last batch under a microscope and couldn't find any lactobacillus. Also it's not getting more sour as it ages, what from my understanding it should, if it was infected. The sour flavor doesn't really go away with aging either. It's not that it's undrinkable, but definitely more sour than a store bought beer. All my beers had a pretty high apparent degree of fermentation (ADF). They where all above 80%, last one around 84% and in addition to this, only very moderately hopped. I used US-05 with the last one. Before that I used S-04 and I will try Nottingham with my next batch. So to this point I'm thinking maybe my beers are just way too dry and I will try keeping my temperature higher during mashing next time. Though I'm not a hundred percent sure if this will help and a little scared of producing just another undesired beer.
I was thinking about my water, so here are the values:

CA = 19,7 ppm
MG = 2,7 ppm
SO = 26,9 ppm
NA = 6,5 ppm
CI = 10,5 ppm
HCO3 = 35,39 ppm -> Alkalinity = 29 ppm

From my understanding they are all fairly low. I don't know if this could be the source of the problem. Right now I'm not adding anything to my water.
Anybody some other ideas?
Thanks in advance!

What temp are you mashing at and for how long? Mashing at low temps for long periods can create sour or acidic off flavors. Yeasts can be another factor, though the ones you list are pretty clean. Are they fresh though?

You may be describing astrigency which can have a sour-like and puckering quality. More info: http://morebeer.com/content/homebrew-off-flavors

Most likely causes are from tannin extractraction due to overcrushing grains, or over sparging. Over sparging is caused when the mash run off becomes too alkaline, usually above 5.6-5.7 pH. In order to avoid this during sparging, you may beed to acidify your sparge water (I personally use the Bru'N water spreadsheet to assist with this calculation). Also, sparging with water that's too hot may extract tannins (I think above about 180F).

Also, I don't know the styles of beers you brewed, but roasted grains can add astrigency to your beer.

I order the yeast fresh for every batch in small packs and discard what I didn't need. I'm from Germany and beginners over here are usually taught to do an old school multi temperature infusion mash. So for my last batch I did 20min @ 127 F, 30min @ 145 F and 163 F until the iodine test turns negative (approximately 5 to 10min). Then mashout at 168 F. But I feel like I should test the US single temp infusion mash. It sounds a lot easier and more reliable.
I used some caramel grains in all my beers so far. They all were some kind of brown ales. Nothing special. I order my grains already crushed and fresh for every batch. I calculate my sparging-water using a program like BeerSmith. So it's probably volume based. I don't do gravity readings while sparging, cause I feel like cooling down to the desired temp is a real hassle. Is that really necessary? My sparge water has about 170 F and its the same water that I use for the mash.
Thanks so far!

Why do you discard yeast? Why not pitch it all in?

It's certainly worth a try to do the single infusion, can't hurt anyway.

You can do a single pre-boil reading, just set some wort to the side while you are boiling til it cools. It's going to be what it is, just gives you an idea, and FWIW, I've only done it once in all of my batches.

Are you brewing with tap water?

Try ridding of chlorine if so.

I agree, I think you may benefit from attempting a single infusion mash. Many do not believe the protein rest is necessary with well modified grains. I'm not sure that is the cause of your issue, but it's worth exploring.

Regarding the sparging question. It's my understanding that pH is more accurate to determine over sparging than a gravity reading. If the sparge water is too alkaline, astrigency may occur. To counter this issue, acidifying your sparge water with acid (lactic or phosphoric) may be required. You may want to explore using the Bru'N water spreadsheet which will calculate your estimated pH during the mash and sparge which assist with adjustments if need. The spreadsheet is pretty advanced, but it's worth learning in my opinion. Again, I don't know if this is the cause of your issue, but I think it's worth exploring.

If you feel the flavors are more sour versus astrigent, you likely have a mild bacteria, or wild yeast contamination. I would clean all equipment thoroughly, and possibly santize with a different sanitizer. I would also consider replacing any plastic components.

I discarded the yeast because my first few batches were quite small. Only 10 to 15 liters, approximately 2.5 to 3.75 galon, so I used a 1/2 to 3/4 pack that was intended for a 5 galon batch. Do u say I can just use everything no matter what?
I do use tap water as water for the mash and sparge. But from my understanding it has very little chlorine already. I posted the values to my water above.
I did have some trouble figuring out an easy and effective way of lautering. I'm now useing a seperate lauter tun, because I don't have a valve on my mash tun. Last time I let the mash sit for a while, then did some recirculating and then let it run dry. After that I closed the valve, added water, stired everything well, let it sit again and then kept on lautering with recirculation again at first. I now know that this was not the best way to do it and will keep my water lever one inch above the grain bed and add water very carefully next time.
I still don't believe in an infection, since the off flavor is very subtle and doesn't change through conditioning. Some people even don't seem to notice the sour flavor until I mention it. Also the beer looked, smelled and tasted just like it is described in the books during fermentation. I saw some pics of infected batches online here in the forum. This is definitely not what my beer looks like. Unless there's a very sneaky bacteria I'm very certain that it is my process of brewing that creates this flavor somehow at some point.

SvenF said:

I discarded the yeast because my first few batches were quite small. Only 10 to 15 liters, approximately 2.5 to 3.75 galon, so I used a 1/2 to 3/4 pack that was intended for a 5 galon batch. Do u say I can just use everything no matter what?

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What kind of yeast are you using? Dry, Smack-pack or vial?
In cases like this, I would say to use the whole pack. it's actually hard to pitch too much yeast. Most of the wet-style yeasts actually may not be enough for a full batch - when you're talking about million cells per milliliter. Most times it's recommended to do a starter for those styles, though the 11 gram packs of dry yeast are probably enough.
My point is, using the whole pack is better for the yeast themselves - less stress to reproduce to enough density to ferment correctly.
Unless you're doing 1-gallon batches (roughly 4 liters) you can and probably should use the whole pack.

SvenF said:

I discarded the yeast because my first few batches were quite small. Only 10 to 15 liters, approximately 2.5 to 3.75 galon, so I used a 1/2 to 3/4 pack that was intended for a 5 galon batch. Do u say I can just use everything no matter what?
I do use tap water as water for the mash and sparge. But from my understanding it has very little chlorine already. I posted the values to my water above.
I did have some trouble figuring out an easy and effective way of lautering. I'm now useing a seperate lauter tun, because I don't have a valve on my mash tun. Last time I let the mash sit for a while, then did some recirculating and then let it run dry. After that I closed the valve, added water, stired everything well, let it sit again and then kept on lautering with recirculation again at first. I now know that this was not the best way to do it and will keep my water lever one inch above the grain bed and add water very carefully next time.
I still don't believe in an infection, since the off flavor is very subtle and doesn't chance through conditioning. Some people even don't seem to notice the sour flavor until I mention it. Also the beer looked, smelled and tasted just like it is described in the books during fermentation. I saw some pics of infected batches online here in the forum. This is definitely not what my beer looks like.

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You may be slightly over pitching for the 3.75, but I don't think it's enough to hurt it. Half pack would be ok for the 2.5 gallon. Also depends on you OG, the higher the more you'll need even for the smaller batch sizes.

Regarding the tap water -- do you know if they treat the water with chloramines in Germany, the way they've started doing in a lot of places here in the States? Unlike chlorine, chloramines take days and days to out-gas at room temperature, or hours even at a boil, which is great for water treatment guys, but sucks for homebrewers. Luckily, chloramine is easy to get rid of with Campden tablets (sodium metabisulfite), although, its off-flavors are usually plastic-y rather than sour.

Also, is it possible you're tasting the yeast? Are your beers clear? Do you leave those last few milliliters of yeasty slurry at the bottom of your bottles when you pour?

What temperature are you getting during fermentation. I did my first brew a little hot and described the taste as sour. I did 2 week primary, one month secondary and the off taste mellowed.
Low to mid sixties (Fahrenheit) is best.

I only used dry yeast so far and rehydrated it properly. I stated the ones I used a few posts earlier. I will use the whole pack next time. Thanks!
I highly doubt any chloramine in our water. It's allways said to be very pure, clean and drinkable.
I don't know about the yeast taste. I never really cared much for a crystal clear beer. I don't use a secondary or anything. And I usually pour the whole bottle in the glas. But the yeast taste that I know, from baking or the german white beer wich is full of yeast, doesn't really taste sour to me...

What temperature are you getting during fermentation. I did my first brew a little hot and described the taste as sour. I did 2 week primary, one month secondary and the off taste mellowed.
Low to mid sixties (Fahrenheit) is best.

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Last fermentation temperature was definitely too high. A heat wave caught me surprisingly (not very usual in Germany) and the beer might have gotten up to around 80s F for a day or so. I take the temp outside of the bucket so the beer itself might even have been a bit warmer. The fermentation temperature of the batch before that was lower, but definitely not as low as 60 F to 65 F. If you say this will produce a sour off flavor, then this migth very well be it. I need to find a cooler and shadier place for my fermentation bucket.

"Off flavors" are hard to describe as each person's palate and description vary. From reading the back and forth, I think your process seems OK. Sanitation is always paramount, but it doesn't sound like infection really. I think the problem is somewhere in your water or mash pH.

I am pretty new into water chemistry, but I'll try to help a little and maybe someone else can jump in. If its sourness you're tasting, look to the magnesium levels in the water. Too much magnesium (over 50ppm) can lead to a sourness. The levels of all your ions according to what you posted seem very low and may not be appropriate for the type of beer you're making. I think you may do well to increase the Calcium in your water if brewing a lighter colored, or more hop forward beer.

Again, you'll need more help than I can lend, but I think your water/mash pH is the culprit here. (the 80*F fermentation temp is certainly a huge problem too)

It could all be in your head. Have someone set up a blind taste with a similar beer or beers. I've realized that I am much more strict at judging my homebrews.

I chose this one to be my next batch:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/red-chair-nwpa-clone-360189/
It's definitly hop forward but not too light. Should have a considerable malt character aswell. I'm just trying to really get some taste in there to eliminate the possibility that my beers just simply were too dry and with no hop flavor or anything to stand against it...

Can you describe the flavor any further?

I too believe your issue is likely either water or mash pH/process related. I recommend brewing your next batch with reverse osmosis water to remove your water as a variable.

You mentioned earlier that you do use straight tap water and that your tap water does contain chlorine (which is not listed on the water report you provided, Cl is chloride). When yeast react with chlorine a compound called chlorophenol develops. Chlorophenol is usually described as plastic, vinyl, or medicinal tasting, it's not sour, so I don't think the chlorine is your issue, but it's difficult to say since I haven't tasted your beer and it's best to remove it for brewing purposes.

aeviaanah said:

It could all be in your head. Have someone set up a blind taste with a similar beer or beers. I've realized that I am much more strict at judging my homebrews.

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You know, I actually though about this aswell... I know this phenomenon from cooking. I feel like when you cook it never tastes as good as everybody else says. You'll allways find something.
But then when I mention the sourness to other people, they do agree. And I've also tried to taste this sourness in store bought beers and if you really concentrate on it, beer is allways slightly sour. But I really can't deny that mine just has this a little more than all the others.

Pie_Man said:

Can you describe the flavor any further?

I too believe your issue is likely either water or mash pH/process related. I recommend brewing your next batch with reverse osmosis water to remove your water as a variable.

You mentioned earlier that you do use straight tap water and that your tap water does contain chlorine (which is not listed on the water report you provided, Cl is chloride). When yeast react with chlorine a compound called chlorophenol develops. Chlorophenol is usually described as plastic, vinyl, or medicinal tasting, it's not sour, so I don't think the chlorine is your issue, but it's difficult to say since I haven't tasted your beer and it's best to remove it for brewing purposes.

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Oh sorry, got confused with chlorine and chloride. The water report does not state any chlorine in the water.
To describe the flavor any further... I would say its like this green apple flavor of young beer, just that it doesn't go away through conditioning. And it's mainly in the finish (I hope I'm saying this right ). With my last batch it was great in the beginning after you took a sip but then this sour green apple flavor came through and sticked around.
Like I said it's really a flavor that you could probably make out in any beer if you concentrate on it. It's just that in my beer it's more present than in others.

Ok, one last thing to note. Green apple flavor is typically acetaldehyde.

From the MoreBeer Off Flavors link I sent earlier:
Acetaldehyde is a naturally occurring chemical produced by yeast during fermentation. It is usually converted into Ethanol alcohol, although this process may take longer in beers with high alcohol content or when not enough yeast is pitched.

Depending on your starting gravity, you may not be pitching enough yeast since you mentioned earlier that you discard a portion of the yeast packet. Depending on your starting gravity and volume, you may be underpitching. I suggest using MrMalty's yeast calculator to determine the proper pitching rate.

Now I think I've covered every off flavor on this thread

Look at trying the simple solutions first.

Overly-dry beers can sometimes have a somewhat sour note to them. Based on your high attenuation numbers, it appears that you may indeed be mashing too low.

Next batch, try doing a single infusion mash at around 153*F unless it's a variety that specifically calls for a lower mash temp (like a Belgian dubbel). Also, check your mash thermometer. I had a floater once that read 7*F higher than the actual temp.

This and fermenting in the low-mid 60's are the first things I'd try to address what you're describing.

Thanks a lot everybody! I will keep in mind all of the things you mentioned for my next batch. My OG was never that high on my first beers so far. Allways around 1.048 to 1.052 (12° - 13° Plato). So I don't think that I'm underpitching the yeast, but I'll definitely use that calculator next time.
Thanks again!

I know this is an old thread, please forgive me. I have been doing a lot of research on this type of issue, as I have had it myself. I have changed just about everything I can, except for the yeast. We are talking water, sparge technique, pH, packaging, sanitation, you name it. I have came across some information today that points to dry yeast. Here is the website and quote:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=11641.30


Could it be your yeast? I recently have brewed with 1450 and did not get the flavor, as well as 1728. I am really starting to think that this is the cause of the issue. I have an IPA that just started carbing, so we will see how it turns out.