MrShake's Magic Brewhaus or Top Hat Brewery

UPDATE - Added Pics to First Post - UPDATE

Ok, I've made the decision.... its time to upgrade my brewing setup to ease the efforts of an all grain brew day.

What I have decided on (at the moment) is a single tier, all electric HERMS. The one wrench in the plan is that I want to have the option to take this single tier out to a brew club event and use propane to fire the boil kettle. In the garage (normal brew location) I want to use a 120v element for the HLT/HEX and a 220v element for the boil kettle.

I have now scrapped the idea of this rig being ultra portable. A generator on site is really the only option... for now.

As well, I intend to use the BrewTroller and BrewTroller Remote projects for control in lieu of PIDS. I don't necessarily intent to automate the entire process, at least not all the time. But I'd like to get to a point of fill/push/go for each step at least.

I'm going to try sketchup for the first time in an effort to model this puppy. And as another first, I'm intending to learn to weld while making the frame.

I'll use this space as a log/journal, and try to remember to take pictures. This will not be a quick project, as I have to do this on a budget, but thats not unusual.

Here is an In-Progress Pics:


I'll update this pic with a current progress snapshot as I make updates.

I would like to seek your guy's wisdom regarding the Hybrid Boil Kettle.
90% of the time it will be a full electric kettle, no heat, easy peasy. The problem comes, when I want to run propane instead. I don't see a situation where I want to run both, so thats not an issue.

So, question is... how best to protect the element from the heat. Ideas for a potentially removable element.... or is there something that could be used to effectively insulate the connections from the burner?

I've never actually looked at an electric kettle, although I'm wanting to build one myself. Is there a reason you can't just keep the cord out of the way and fire it over the burner without removing the element? The element itself, and the material used to mount it on the keg, should be able to withstand heat. The only thing I would be worried about at that point is the power cord for the heater.

Weld in a 2" sanitary fitting on the keg. Mod a blank to house the heating element. When going to propane you can easily remove the element and place another blank in its place. Put the element on a plug so it can just be removed.

Somewhere on here a few weeks ago I saw a post about a "heat stick". Basically it was a heating element attached to a piece of pvc that you hang on the side of keggle. This might work since its not actually attached to the keggle you just leave it behind when you head to the club brew.

While I like the idea of a heat stick, that seems backwards, since most of the brewing (90%) will be using the electric element. Seems to me that that would need to be more robust than the heat stick situation.

GreenMonti, you wanna come to IL and weld in that 2" fitting? hahaha

So I tried installing Sketchup using wine in my Ubuntu environment, that didn't work out so well. I also tried a couple of linux compatable software options and found them to be intimidating. I guess I'll have to boot to vista to get a 3d rendering... doh

Here is my first draft sketch. This is water/worth path only... Done in visio (all I have at work)

MrShake said:

GreenMonti, you wanna come to IL and weld in that 2" fitting? hahaha

Click to expand...

Cheers.

GreenMonti said:

Cheers.

Click to expand...

I'll take that as a yes... hahaah!!!


On a different note. I see MANY single-tier setups using 2 pumps. Is there specific reason for this that I'm missing?

MrShake said:

I'll take that as a yes... hahaah!!!


On a different note. I see MANY single-tier setups using 2 pumps. Is there specific reason for this that I'm missing?

Click to expand...

It's nothing major. It's a conviniece thing. i.e. If you are sparging you can continue to pump to the BK. One willl work. 2 is better. It depends on if you can justify the extra $120. I know I can. Think about doing two brews at once. You start your next mash. What are you going to use to move the finished product from the BK while your mash is recirculating through your HEX? You could use gravity I guess. Lots of other uses.

Also if you want to propane fire your kettle, the only thing you have to do is plug the holes that the electric element left when you took it out. You hsould be able to come up with a weldless oring set up that would work if you arent going the sanitary route that greenmonti suggested. I have an electric BK and I would def not recommend buting heat form the propane on it until that element is out of there. Also remove any insulation you have placed on it.

Good luck!

You know you could just do all electric and buy a portable generator...

MadWeezel said:

You know you could just do all electric and buy a portable generator...

Click to expand...

Hrm.... I kinda like that idea. Can you get a generator that will supply 220 and 110 for reasonable?

cruelkix said:

It's nothing major. It's a conviniece thing. i.e. If you are sparging you can continue to pump to the BK. One willl work. 2 is better. It depends on if you can justify the extra $120. I know I can. Think about doing two brews at once. You start your next mash. What are you going to use to move the finished product from the BK while your mash is recirculating through your HEX? You could use gravity I guess. Lots of other uses.

Also if you want to propane fire your kettle, the only thing you have to do is plug the holes that the electric element left when you took it out. You hsould be able to come up with a weldless oring set up that would work if you arent going the sanitary route that greenmonti suggested. I have an electric BK and I would def not recommend buting heat form the propane on it until that element is out of there. Also remove any insulation you have placed on it.

Good luck!

Click to expand...

I hadn't considered a 2nd batch..... thats a great idea!!! I guess I better find an extra 130ish bucks.

Depends on what your definition of reasonable is.. $800 - $1200. What kind of wattage are we talking about? a 5kW will run around 800, 6.5 ~$1200.

Plus if your power ever goes out its nice to know you can still brew

$50 solution. 4th keg (standby BK) for Propane. Can also be a fermenter in the mean time.

-OCD

beerocd said:

$50 solution. 4th keg (standby BK) for Propane. Can also be a fermenter in the mean time.

-OCD

Click to expand...

THAT may be the best solution evar!!! Not even a $50 dollar solution. I find 3 or 4 kegs after the college kids move out every year!

MadWeezel said:

Depends on what your definition of reasonable is.. $800 - $1200. What kind of wattage are we talking about? a 5kW will run around 800, 6.5 ~$1200.

Plus if your power ever goes out its nice to know you can still brew

Click to expand...

Well.... lets see, the 220volt element is 5500 watts and the 110volt element will be 1500 or 2000 watts....

$1200 is more than I'm going to spend on the entire setup (I hope). though Rental is a posibility for a generator.

So I've been working on the initial parts list to get an idea of cost here..... Here's a capture of what I have currently. Its got a stainless only vs brass/copper use on it

MrShake said:

So I've been working on the initial parts list to get an idea of cost here..... Here's a capture of what I have currently. Its got a stainless only vs brass/copper use on it

Click to expand...

Don't forget your 15% contingency. Ya know, f$%K ups, forgot stuff, changes to your design. I have no idea my rig cost me and I dont want to know. I've thrown away at least $100 worth of stuff do to mistakes or breaks. Let alone the cost of tools I didn't have. I live by the fact that it will never be as cheap as you estimate it to be. But there is always the chance/very high probability that I am very bad with money!



EDIT: IF you buy the complete temp probe from derrin you dont need the probe ends. Also dont forget oyu are going to need all sorts of wire.

cruelkix said:

Don't forget your 15% contingency. Ya know, f$%K ups, forgot stuff, changes to your design. I have no idea my rig cost me and I dont want to know. I've thrown away at least $100 worth of stuff do to mistakes or breaks. Let alone the cost of tools I didn't have. I live by the fact that it will never be as cheap as you estimate it to be. But there is always the chance/very high probability that I am very bad with money!



EDIT: IF you buy the complete temp probe from derrin you dont need the probe ends. Also dont forget oyu are going to need all sorts of wire.

Click to expand...

I try to never count tool costs in stuff like this.... cuz I can usually convince SWMBO of the need for a new tool... hahaha

Save your self $30 March pump on ebay for $108 shipped:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220528436508

MadWeezel said:

Save your self $30 March pump on ebay for $108 shipped:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220528436508

Click to expand...

Nice!!! If the kegerator I have for sale sells tonight, I'll be ordering that puppy!

Well... its official... they project has begun.

I have made the first purchase... nothing earth shatttering, but I have ordered the LCD for the brewtroller (brewtroller.com is out of them, and their forums suggested another vendor).

Here is where I purchased the LCD:

http://411techsystems.com/html/dm2004abb6ntdw.html

I did a little free-lance job last night, so I'll get the brewtroller itself once that money is deposited. And, hopefully, the guy who wants my keggerator will come by this afternoon!

Its been a good christmas!! Brewtroller is ordered... I can't wait to get it and start playing around!!

Quick update....

LCD and Powersupply for the BrewTroller are in. Still waiting on the BrewTroller itself and the 2 temp probes, then I can start initial testing and start modifying keggles.

Update:

Brewtroller is in, now waiting on temp probes and misc connection parts to do the initial testing build of the brewtroller

Next on the list, and containing a question is this:

HLT Element:
http://www.amazon.com/Camco-02203-2000-Watt-120-Volt-Element/dp/B0006JLVBW
BK Element:
http://www.amazon.com/Camco-02963-5500W-240V-Element/dp/B000BPG4LI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1262634018&sr=8-1-fkmr1
HLT SSR:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-Solid-State-Relay-SSR-3-32VDC-24-440V-AC-20A_W0QQitemZ200267149621QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea0da3135
BK SSR:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-State-Relay-SSR-24-480V-AC-40A-Heat-Sink_W0QQitemZ180445671309QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a03666f8d


Questions are:

Is this enough element for the HLT?
Is this a good SSR for the BK?
Is there a better option for the HLT SSR?
I'd need a heat sink for the HLT SSR... cheaper just to get 2 of the bigger?

SSRs and Elements are next on the ordering list... I figure with those and a march pump, I can actually brew using what I have, and then continue to build around it.

MrShake said:

Update:

Brewtroller is in, now waiting on temp probes and misc connection parts to do the initial testing build of the brewtroller

Next on the list, and containing a question is this:

HLT Element:
http://www.amazon.com/Camco-02203-2000-Watt-120-Volt-Element/dp/B0006JLVBW
BK Element:
http://www.amazon.com/Camco-02963-5500W-240V-Element/dp/B000BPG4LI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1262634018&sr=8-1-fkmr1
HLT SSR:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-Solid-State-Relay-SSR-3-32VDC-24-440V-AC-20A_W0QQitemZ200267149621QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea0da3135
BK SSR:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-State-Relay-SSR-24-480V-AC-40A-Heat-Sink_W0QQitemZ180445671309QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a03666f8d


Questions are:

Is this enough element for the HLT? I'm using a 3800 watt 240v heating element for my HLT. I think the 2000 watt might be a littel under powdered to get your heat up for mashouts and what not in a respectable time. You can do the math on it and find out tho.... Gut suggestion, go bigger if you can.
Is this a good SSR for the BK? I got these guys for me SSRShttp://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&productId=176719&catalogId=10001&freeText=176719&app.products.maxperpage=15&storeId=10001&search_type=jamecoall&ddkey=http:StoreCatalogDrillDownView
Is there a better option for the HLT SSR? Same as the last question
I'd need a heat sink for the HLT SSR... cheaper just to get 2 of the bigger? I don't have heat sinks for mine yet as I have installed them into a metal case and the case is acting as a heatsink. It is winter here so I havent had any issues yet. I may need to do some sort of coolio in the summer but I am not sure yet.
SSRs and Elements are next on the ordering list... I figure with those and a march pump, I can actually brew using what I have, and then continue to build around it.

Click to expand...

They may not be perfect answers but see above in blue. HTH

-Craig

I'm hesitant to jump to a 220volt element for the HLT as that would be 2 220 elements to run, potentially at the same time... thats a BIG investment in power in the garage.

MrShake said:

I'm hesitant to jump to a 220volt element for the HLT as that would be 2 220 elements to run, potentially at the same time... thats a BIG investment in power in the garage.

Click to expand...

I can understand that. I already had the 50A 240V breaker in my garage, so I was lucky. 5500w + 3800w = 38.75 Amps. Works for me. In a few weeks I should be able to give you some real world data on how the 3800w element did with ramp up times if you can wait that long .....

I'm going to be running a circuit to the garage so I can put in what I want, but if I went with 2 5500w elements... that would @ 50amps without any overhead... I'd really need a 60 or 70amp circuit... and while I have 200amp service, thats a lot to devote to brewing.

Hrm.... I know there are some other posts about never needing to use both elements at the same time.

MrShake said:

I'm going to be running a circuit to the garage so I can put in what I want, but if I went with 2 5500w elements... that would @ 50amps without any overhead... I'd really need a 60 or 70amp circuit... and while I have 200amp service, thats a lot to devote to brewing.

Hrm.... I know there are some other posts about never needing to use both elements at the same time.

Click to expand...

If you def have a 200 amp service that I would not worry about it at all. I agree that you would need a 60 amp breaker for the heating elements. I run all of my 120 v stuff of a seperate breaker. You may be able to get away with out running them at the same time but, I would design it the other way around. Assume you will need to. Just because you have 60 amps run to the garage doesnt mean you are always using it. I have 100 amp service to my house and 100 amps worth of breakers in my garage. It lends itself to blowing my main breaker, but every house is capable of over doing it with all the breakers taht are in there.

So update, I've decided to go with a 4500w element for the HLT and a 5500w element for the BK.

I'll run a 60a 220 circuit to the garage as well as a 20a 110 circuit and be happy with TONS of power in the garage!

MrShake said:

So update, I've decided to go with a 4500w element for the HLT and a 5500w element for the BK.

I'll run a 60a 220 circuit to the garage as well as a 20a 110 circuit and be happy with TONS of power in the garage!

Click to expand...

I think that is a very good decision! You'll be happy you did

I felt like I wanted to actually post some pics... I'm still waiting on all the parts I've ordered to arrive before actually posting a build pic, but for those interested, here are some of the parts and their sources so far:

3 Position Selector Switches for Control Panel:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130307597426


40a SSR w/heatsink:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-State-Relay-SSR-24-480V-AC-40A-Heat-Sink_W0QQitemZ180445671309QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a03666f8d


4x20 LCD (brewtroller sells these as well, they were out when I purchased):
http://411techsystems.com/html/dm2004abb6ntdw.html


Brewershardware Temp Probe for BT:
http://www.brewershardware.com/probes.htm


Temp Probe Compression fittings (also brewershardware):
http://www.brewershardware.com/probes.htm

There is some other stuff... I hope to get a bunch of this soon. I'll find other pics and post them as well

The pile of parts is growing!! I can't wait to start building!!

Brewtroller and Temp Probes:


Control Panel Enclosure and 3 position switches:


Electrical Parts and Element Cords:


Everything So Far:

I'm at the exact same point in my build. I'm going with a RIMS however. I'm not very computer/electronics savvy so it's a learning process. Are you connecting your temp probes directly to the BT or through some sort of disconnect? I'm going to go with RJ45 connectors and cat5 cable (I have lots of it). Also, I'm guessing you'll have the ability turn on pumps, elements, etc manually via the 3-way switches?

pickles said:

I'm at the exact same point in my build. I'm going with a RIMS however. I'm not very computer/electronics savvy so it's a learning process. Are you connecting your temp probes directly to the BT or through some sort of disconnect? I'm going to go with RJ45 connectors and cat5 cable (I have lots of it). Also, I'm guessing you'll have the ability turn on pumps, elements, etc manually via the 3-way switches?

Click to expand...

I'm going to use 3 pin din or xlr connectors for the probes. And yes, the 3 way switches are for manual control.

Good luck with your build!

Got an electrical question....

I picked up a 60amp gfci spa disconnect to act is my gfci protection for the eHERMS...

Is it a problem or am I "over fused" with a 60 amp breaker if I am only running 1 element?

No problem. Just make sure your wiring is suitable for then amperage your using. You may need to fuse the components after the GFCI to protect them from too much juice. I'm sure you'll get a better answer though.

I think I'm going to post specifically about the 60amp and fuse solution to the diy forum, maybe or electrical guys will have advice.