need input on control panel

My setup:
15 gallon system
two 5500W elements
60A GFCI breaker in home panel and 60A outlet at stand

Goal:
Run both 5500W elements at the same time

I'm using Kal's awesome build and website as a template for how I want to build my panel. The big difference is that I want to run both elements at the same time, thus the 60A input into the panel. After studying Kal's layout, I think there are only a few changes that I would need to make for this to work. Besides the changes below, everything else would remain the same as Kal's design.

1) hardwire 60A feed to the enclosure
2) replace 30A relay with 60A relay at the power input
3) bring both the boil element relay and the HLT element relay hot wiring back to the 60A relay so that no wire ever sees more than 30A
4) add a 30A fast blow fuse in each wire to protect the boil element and HLT element relays
5) instead of a 3 way selector to choose which element is on, use on-off selector for each 30A relay
6) and I was going to add an E-stop button in the control circuit feeding the 60A relay

Of course finding a 60A relay isn't real easy but I think this one will work:
http://www.elkproducts.com/_webapp_2981415/elk-9200__heavy_duty_relay_contactor

Am I missing anything? I know a picture is worth a thousand words but I don't have a means of drawing up a schematic so, hopefully, this is somewhat clear. Thanks for the help and input!

A 60 Amp contactor isn't going to be a trivial thing to find. You're getting into motor starter territory there. For something like that I would use two smaller 40A contactors, one for each element, and use an e-stop circuit to make or break control power to them. Add a third one to provide power for your pumps and other low current AC stuff.
It'll cost about half as much as a small motor starter at least.

I am in Melbourne so if you ever need a hand I might be available .

Thanks Code. I'm just up 95 from you so I'll definitely keep that in mind.

Splitting the input is my backup plan if I can't find a suitable 60A relay. Right now I'm leaning towards this relay and ripping it out of the included enclosure:
http://www.elkproducts.com/_webapp_2981415/elk-9200__heavy_duty_relay_contactor

What do you think?

Consider a hard panel disconnect / contactor as an alternative. See McMaster-Carr part no. 7277K54. You could use it to turn the panel on and off; also, it makes the E-Stop unnecessary because you can use it to hard stop the whole panel. I also find it safer because there is no 120 that jumps the relay.

You may already be aware, but 60amp "stuff" tends to be very spendy and hard to find. Plugs, receptacles, cord, etc. I started down the path of a 60amp panel and ended up revisiting my requirements.

Are you planning to use PID's like Kal, or a different control?

Ed

Ohio-Ed said:

You may already be aware, but 60amp "stuff" tends to be very spendy and hard to find. Plugs, receptacles, cord, etc. I started down the path of a 60amp panel and ended up revisiting my requirements.

Click to expand...

The only plug/receptacles he'd need would be input to the panel itself. The element plugs/receptacles would be 30A.

That said, he could (gulp) hardwire the panel into a small 60A sub-panel that connects to the house cct breaker panel. The only issue I'd see with this is code: You've got this new control panel *directly* connected to your house circuitry so it's now part of your house so in most places (US included IIRC), it would fall under house wiring code, need to be inspected, etc. I leave it up to him to decide where to follow/break rules.

Other than that I think you have everything else fairly well thought out. You obviously know what you're doing which is a first good sign!

As others have mentioned you're starting to see the difficulties with going with a larger mains (60A vs 30A). This is why I thought long and hard: Do I really *need* both elements to be active at the same time? And then ended up going with a 30A feed.

I don't want to question your original design goal, but are you sure you really need to run both the HLT and BK elements at the same time? Usually the only reason to do this is when brewing 2 batches back to back: You want to heat up strike water/mash while the first is boiling.

Kal

kal said:

The only plug/receptacles he'd need would be input to the panel itself. The element plugs/receptacles would be 30A.

That said, he could (gulp) hardwire the panel into a small 60A sub-panel that connects to the house cct breaker panel. The only issue I'd see with this is code: You've got this new control panel *directly* connected to your house circuitry so it's now part of your house so in most places (US included IIRC), it would fall under house wiring code, need to be inspected, etc. I leave it up to him to decide where to follow/break rules.

Other than that I think you have everything else fairly well thought out. You obviously know what you're doing which is a first good sign!

As others have mentioned you're starting to see the difficulties with going with a larger mains (60A vs 30A). This is why I thought long and hard: Do I really *need* both elements to be active at the same time? And then ended up going with a 30A feed.

I don't want to question your original design goal, but are you sure you really need to run both the HLT and BK elements at the same time? Usually the only reason to do this is when brewing 2 batches back to back: You want to heat up strike water/mash while the first is boiling.

Kal

Click to expand...

There really seems to be a big price jump when you go beyond 50 amp "components"... The mains plug and receptacle for the panel are $50+ each (if you decide to go twistloc double that)... add a 60 AMP GFCI add a length of appropriate SO cord and cord grips and you are probably $300+ just getting power to the box.

I agree with thinking about your requirements... I ended up with a 50amp panel and I know you (Kal) are getting it done with 30amps.
If you need 60, go for it... but if you haven't priced the basic components yet... you might want to take a quick look.

Ed

By going "directly" into my panel, what I really meant is that I'll take the 60A feed from the house panel to an outlet by the stand. I'll have a 60A receptacle and plug which will be hardwired to the panel so I'll be able to remove the panel if I ever wanted to. So not really tied to the house - that should ease any concern about inspection. I know that those components aren't cheap but I look at this as an investment and I only want to do this once (and correctly). My "requirement" is to be able to do batches back to back. My time is valuable and I think the the investment in components will pay for themselves in time.

Ed, I am using the PIDs like Kal did. I'm actually using the SYL-2362 model.

Thanks for the input so far!

Is there any particular reason you can't use two 4500W elements?

I can run both of my 4500W elements at the same time no problem with 50A supply hardware.

Just curious,
TB

short_mark said:

Consider a hard panel disconnect / contactor as an alternative. See McMaster-Carr part no. 7277K54. You could use it to turn the panel on and off; also, it makes the E-Stop unnecessary because you can use it to hard stop the whole panel.

Click to expand...

This looks like a good idea because it combines the e-stop and the power button, plus you can still have an indicator light. Has anyone tried this in a live system?

killion said:

This looks like a good idea because it combines the e-stop and the power button, plus you can still have an indicator light. Has anyone tried this in a live system?

Click to expand...

No, but looks nice. The only issue I see is that it is a selector style switch and not a standard "E-Stop" button.

TB - I know the 5500W is a bit of overkill in the 15 gallon kettles but I haven't convinced myself that I won't move to a bigger kettle in the future. And since I'm doing all weldless connections I'll be able to transfer everything over without much of an issue. How fast did your 4500W elements bring your water up to temp in your testing?

And I tend to agree with EFaden on the hard panel disconnect. I know it would do the job but when the crap hits the fan I want no confusion on what button to hit to kill the system. The mushroom style E-stops take the thinking out of the equation.

SpaceCoastBrew said:

By going "directly" into my panel, what I really meant is that I'll take the 60A feed from the house panel to an outlet by the stand. I'll have a 60A receptacle and plug which will be hardwired to the panel so I'll be able to remove the panel if I ever wanted to. So not really tied to the house - that should ease any concern about inspection.

Click to expand...

Ok, perfect. If it's not hard wired then you can do as you please and still pass anything that resembles an inspection. It's not important to everyone but I figure it's important to mention.

I know that those components aren't cheap but I look at this as an investment and I only want to do this once (and correctly). My "requirement" is to be able to do batches back to back. My time is valuable and I think the the investment in components will pay for themselves in time.

Click to expand...

Excellent. I applaud you for doing your homework and making that decision (which only you can make). Nobody else can decide what's worth it for you. I still get comments from people basically saying (indirectly) that my setup is not "worth it" and I always scratch my head about that. How can someone else possibly decide that for me?

I don't think at 5500W element is overkill on a 15 gallon setup.

I combined the e-stop with my power button in my setup. While I originally wanted a big red mushroom style e-stop, I decided in the end that it wasn't needed. A key switch like I use isn't as quick and easy to "hit" like a push-in mushroom button but I figure it's close enough.

Can't wait to see your finished panel!

Kal

SpaceCoastBrew said:

TB - I know the 5500W is a bit of overkill in the 15 gallon kettles but I haven't convinced myself that I won't move to a bigger kettle in the future. And since I'm doing all weldless connections I'll be able to transfer everything over without much of an issue. How fast did your 4500W elements bring your water up to temp in your testing?

Click to expand...

Is your system capable of brewing 15 gallons, or is 15 gal the capacity of your kettles? If your kettles are 15 gal, then you'll likely be doing 10 gal batches, and you don't need 5500W for that. I wouldn't say it's overkill, since it will save you time and there's nothing wrong with that. If you plan on an upgrade later, then go with the 5500 though. However, with 4500W elements, you only need 50A supply.

I haven't timed my system yet, but I did find a formula for estimating it.

(G x dT x 1000) / (372 x W) = t (hours)
Where G is gal, dT is change in temp in degF, W is wattage of your element. I'll compare the formula to my system when I run my next test.

And I tend to agree with EFaden on the hard panel disconnect. I know it would do the job but when the crap hits the fan I want no confusion on what button to hit to kill the system. The mushroom style E-stops take the thinking out of the equation.

Click to expand...

The most important thing is that you and whoever is with you knows how to kill the system if sh@t hits the fan.

Good luck!
TB