Flanders Red in only 9 weeks?

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Morkin

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Has anyone read "Wild Brews" by Jeff Sparrow?

On his Flanders Red Receipe, he states that a a Flanders Red needs to be brewed at 68 degrees for one week, typical ale schedule.

He then says to do a secondary with the bugs for 1 year at celler temperatures, or 8 weeks at 80 degrees.

Seeing how it is summer and I can leave my fermenter in a spare bedroom at 80 degrees, this intrigues me greatly. I was planing on a Flanders Red soon, and this seems like a great alternative to the many years I planed on doing sours.

2 questions, am I reading this correctly, and second, will it have dramatically different tastes that I shouldn't even bother doing it? Thanks for any help.
 
There's no way you're going to have a Flanders red in 9 weeks. If there was some sort off magical shortcut to making these beers, the breweries that make them would be employing that strategy. These types of sours need the time to really work. I would be patient and go the distance.
 
thats what I figured, but wasn't sure if the high 80 degree temp would allow the bugs to work faster....
 
The bugs would work faster, and it would be "done" sooner, but I doubt it will taste the same. Regular yeast will ferment faster and be done quicker at 80 degrees too, but there's reasons nobody takes that short cut.
 
You could have an interesting faux-Flanders Red in 9 weeks if you do a sour mash for the sourness and ferment 100% with Brett L or Brett B to get some of that nice funk.

It won't be authentic, but it should taste really good.
 
If you're alright forgoing the pedio & brett characteristics of a flanders then I suppose it may work for you. If you're expecting to get a Rodenbach in 9 wks you'll be sadly disappointed. The best brews take time and you need to listen to the beer.
 
Thanks guys. I'll probably just do the years method instead of the super fast and easy method. I'm no newbie to brewing, only sours, and I've acquired the mindset of not rushing beers, even though I like my beers to come out fast! Thanks for all the feedback.
 
while probably impossible, it couldn't hurt to try b4 you go to waiting for years. if you have an open fermenter take the two to three months and give it a shot. i still think 6 mos. minimum for any decent sour, but it can't hurt to try. after all, there are no golden rules for sours. by fermenting in a bucket you'll give it a lot of O2 exposure to get the acidity going early on. i've gotta few brett only sours that i plan on bottling and begin drinking <6 mos. for the third time, it can never hurt to try;)
 
If there was some sort off magical shortcut to making these beers, the breweries that make them would be employing that strategy.

I think that's a pretty silly argument. There are plenty of traditional techniques that are practiced over better modern techniques - turbid mash, koelschip, decoction - for no reason other than tradition.
 
I think that's a pretty silly argument. There are plenty of traditional techniques that are practiced over better modern techniques - turbid mash, koelschip, decoction - for no reason other than tradition.

And as soon as a "Modern" brewery brews a beer as good as the Lambics/Gueuzes I've had from Cantillon, Drie Fonteinen etc... I'll believe you. These techniques require time/skill that many brewers don't have, but when used correctly it is certainly not just for "tradition" (that is the silly argument).

The warmer ferment will certainly speed up the souring, but you won't get the depth and complexity that a longer/cooler fermentation will give. I think it is certainly worth a shot, but get a normal batch going too, the sooner the better.
 
OK, here is the plan. I'm brewing a wheat this weekend, June 12th. After that, I am going to brew 2 batches of Flanders Red : 1 for a 9-14 month celler temp fermentation, and 1 with an 80 degree temp fermentation for 8 weeks to see if this is possible. I understand fully that the flavor complexity will not be there on the 8 week one.

The reason for this is that I don't see this having been done anywhere on the forums or event talked about, other than in Wild Brews. I'll start a new thread once I've started the experiment. While it's easy to predict that it won't be "as good" as the longer ferment time, it's worth a try. Thanks for all the feedback!
 
Should be interesting to see how it works. Repitching the blend will lead to more acidity since the bacteria will multiply faster than the yeast. You may also want to pitch some bottle dregs in there, I find the Roeselare Blend to be a bit tame on its own (although i have never gone past 2 generations).
 
OldSock - tried any Russian River sours? If so, what are your thoughts?

I've tried most of the ones that have been bottled (including some obscure ones like Beatification PH1, Depuration, and Deviation), I think they are the best made American sours (although there are certainly some beers from Jolly Pumpkin, Lost Abbey, and a few others that can be in the same class but not with the same consistency ). That said, even at their peak I don't think they have the balance and complexity that the best Belgian Lambics have (especially considering the hype/cost that goes into getting them) that said I think they are often better than many solid lambics (and are more to my tastes than most Belgian Flanders Reds which are too sweet/acetic for my tastes.)

That said I may be a bit jaded this morning since last night I drove up to Philly to go to the Lambic Summit at the UPenn Museum. Getting to try 6 Cantillon and Drie Fonteinen beers that esentially have never been available in America (things like J&J Blauw, 3F 1999 Gueuze, weird grape aged beers, a 5 year cognac barrel aged lambic etc&#8230;)while listening to the brewers/blenders talk was inspiring. It was interesting how soft most of them were, the Americans tend to hit you over the head with the acidity.

I would love to see Russian River do some more Cuvees of the best barrels rather than blending everything together for release. It may also be a result of how much more beer the Lambic brewers are aging compared to Russian River. It may also just be the experience, Russian River may be where these guys are after Vinnie has another 20 years experience under his belt.
 
And as soon as a "Modern" brewery brews a beer as good as the Lambics/Gueuzes I've had from Cantillon, Drie Fonteinen etc... I'll believe you. These techniques require time/skill that many brewers don't have, but when used correctly it is certainly not just for "tradition" (that is the silly argument).

The warmer ferment will certainly speed up the souring, but you won't get the depth and complexity that a longer/cooler fermentation will give. I think it is certainly worth a shot, but get a normal batch going too, the sooner the better.
So despite the overwhelming majority of organisms necessary for spontaneous fermentation residing in the barrels and not the air, a koelschip is not done out of tradition? Despite the availability of modern, well-modified malts and melanoidin malts, triple decoctions are done out of necessity and not out of tradition? Perhaps there are similar mechanisms of tradition at play here, and perhaps there are not.
I am not saying that leaving a Flanders red at 80 for 8 weeks is obviously going to make an equivalent product, I am saying that an appeal to authority is not equivalent to understanding and describing a process, and is never a good reason to do something.
 
So despite the overwhelming majority of organisms necessary for spontaneous fermentation residing in the barrels and not the air, a koelschip is not done out of tradition? Despite the availability of modern, well-modified malts and melanoidin malts, triple decoctions are done out of necessity and not out of tradition? Perhaps there are similar mechanisms of tradition at play here, and perhaps there are not.
I am not saying that leaving a Flanders red at 80 for 8 weeks is obviously going to make an equivalent product, I am saying that an appeal to authority is not equivalent to understanding and describing a process, and is never a good reason to do something.

I&#8217;ll address your comments on coolships, since I am no expert on decoction mashing (here is the guy to speak to on that one: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page).

How did those microbes get into the barrels in the first place? Are you suggesting that the pedio/lacto/brett and whatever other microbes complete the fermentation are not present in the air as well?

I&#8217;m not sure how much sour beer brewing you&#8217;ve done, but I&#8217;d suggest that barrels that contained 2-3 year old beer won&#8217;t have many Saccharomyces cells left for primary fermentation of the new wort. There are also all sorts of minor oxidative yeasts (Kloeckera apiculata for example) and thermophilic enterobacteria present in young Lambic that die out as the pH drops and the alcohol rises (that would not be found in the old barrels). As I understand it many Lambic brewers let the beer start fermenting before it goes into the barrels in the "horny" tank. There are also practical considerations, coolships don&#8217;t use water to cool, and it costs thousands of dollars to buy a heat exchanger (that needs to be replaced/fixed/maintained).

Turbid mashing similarly pulls out molecules (starches, tannins etc&#8230;) in very different ratios than a normal mash would. Just because you can now convert starches to sugars with a single step infusion mash doesn't mean the wort is identical to one made with a more complex mash.

I&#8217;ll agree with you that an appeal to authority is not the ideal way to &#8220;know&#8221; something, but in the absence of a complete understanding of a topic I don&#8217;t see an issue with starting your exploration by trying to mimic the techniques of an expert. I don't think anyone fully understands the complexities of the spontaneous fermentation cycle, especially because it has not had the heavy research investment that other areas of brewing have because big breweries aren&#8217;t interested in it.

I&#8217;m not arguing that all traditional practices are inherently right, I&#8217;m just saying that there are often reasons besides flavor/quality that old methods are discarded (cost, time, variable results, lack of traditional ingredient availability). And where is your proof that these traditional practices aren&#8217;t the best way to brew?
 
I think that's a pretty silly argument. There are plenty of traditional techniques that are practiced over better modern techniques - turbid mash, koelschip, decoction - for no reason other than tradition.

Turbid mashing (in addition to the tannins/starches oldsock mentioned) creates long chain proteins giving the bugs something to chew on as they make the sours taste right.

Koelschip is introducing more bugs into the wort, if they only relied on the barrel it might never finish up. Think Spring bugs.

So despite the overwhelming majority of organisms necessary for spontaneous fermentation residing in the barrels and not the air, a koelschip is not done out of tradition? Despite the availability of modern, well-modified malts and melanoidin malts, triple decoctions are done out of necessity and not out of tradition?

Do me a favor.
Brew an all Munich beer without a decoction, add whatever you like that you might think will get you that decoction flavor.
Now brew one with a decoction.

Tell me they both taste the same.

You REALLY want your eyes opened........... brew a Hefeweizen with/without a decoction.
 
At 9 weeks you will get a good lacto sourness but not the pedio acidity which takes much longer to develop. My first pitch at 9 weeks tasted a bit like Rodenbach -- the one blended with 75% young beer. My second pitch of the same yeast at 9 weeks had a lot more brettanomyces character but wasn't any more sour. Both batches are currently cellaring and are at 5 and 8 months of age, I hope to begin blending and bottling them in another 6 months.
 
my Flanders is still in the carboy after 11 months. Pellicle still intact; waiting on one of my sour kegs to kick... Im still tempted to keep it in the carboy for 18 months, but I want to sample it soooooo bad.
 
I know that Wild Brews uses some of Raj Apte's information about wild fermentation, but I thought this might be useful to address the question about fast-fermenting sour ale:

http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/flemishredale.shtml

About 2/3 of the way down, he discusses a "fast, malty, lactic ale," which would have a lot of lactic sourness, but none from brett and friends. While the complexity wouldn't be there, it's an interesting idea. The rest of the page is great and informative, though it can be a little wonkish.

There's my $.02. Good luck on your sour, no matter which method you use!
 
I am doing this exact experiment at home right now... (I read that in Wild Brews as well and thought I would give it a try).

I did two weeks at 68-72 ish degrees.

Now, I am in the middle of a 2 month secondary fermentation at 80 degrees (using a brew belt).

I plan on adding some Blackberries perhaps for a couple more months after that and seeing how developed it is.

I will keep you posted on the results!
 
I always assume when somebody says they are going to try something in this section and then disappear and never post up results that the experiment didn't go as planned and they died. (No offense meant about Babalu's condition.)
 
Maybe I'll give it a shot this summer once the temps heat up. I have two flanders going now and will ferment out naturally. That will give me the freedom to attempt a fast flanders this summer to see how it turns out. If worse comes to worse and it's not that complex I'll blend it into another batch. I will certainly document and post up gravity readings and pH measurements when I make the beer.:mug:
 
I always assume when somebody says they are going to try something in this section and then disappear and never post up results that the experiment didn't go as planned and they died. (No offense meant about Babalu's condition.)

In regards to Babalu's comments about decoction, they are shared by none other than Denny Conn himself. He's got a whole presentation on how decoction isn't necessary anymore. So it's not like Babalu is spouting some random jibberish, like "Temp control for yeast is a lie, let it go to 95F!"

Regarding maskednegator's original comments, I think that in this case, if there were a way to ignore tradition and make good sours in a few weeks, the big sour breweries in America would have hopped on that train years ago. The market for sours is starting to take off, and I'm sure those breweries would LOVE to be able to crank them out in 8 weeks a pop.
 
In regards to Babalu's comments about decoction, they are shared by none other than Denny Conn himself. He's got a whole presentation on how decoction isn't necessary anymore. So it's not like Babalu is spouting some random jibberish, like "Temp control for yeast is a lie, let it go to 95F!"

I just meant when I said when people don't follow up in threads that I assume the died, I wasn't joking about his medical condition.
 

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