To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In

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Do any of you guys who dry hop in primary wash your yeast afterward? We wash our yeast most of the time, and it seems like all those hops would make that a bad idea, but if it's been done successfully...

I've done it, but it's a bit more of a pain. Leaf hops come out ok, but the pellet sludge makes it tougher. If I'm planning on washing yeast, I dryhop in the secondary. If I remember to transfer. Sometimes I forget, because dryhopping in the bucket is so much easier, and then I go "oh, darn!" when I remember I have to wash that yeast!
 
I think those times when I've harvested dry hopped pellet primary only beers, I've probably just had to do a "rinse cycle" a couple more times than I would if there weren't excess hops in there. But it's never seemed any bigger of a deal to me that washing yeast is period. I use a couple of 1 gallon mason jars when I rinse, I'll dump a gallon of water in to the bucket, then pour that into gallon one, then after that settles pour off the top stuff, add more water and transfer it to gallon two.
 
I prefer to make my starters a little bigger and harvest my yeast for washing from there. Much less trub, hops and dead yeast to deal with compared to harvesting from the primary.
 
I let the beer decide for me. I avoid secondary if I can. If the beer isn't clearing the way I'd like after a month in primary, I xfer to secondary. For whatever reason, it seems to accelerate the clearing process.
 
Still a good idea to x-fer when you intend to age for 3+ months?

For long-term aging, it's best to transfer to a keg under a CO2 blanket. If a keg is not available, a secondary vessel (carboy, Better Bottle) will do. When leaving the beer on the yeast for an extended period (months), you can start picking up off-flavors from autolysis and such.
 
I let the beer decide for me.

That's really the best way to go all-around. Listen to what your beer tells you. Once you learn its language, it will tell you exactly what should be done to it and at what time.
 
I let the beer decide for me. I avoid secondary if I can. If the beer isn't clearing the way I'd like after a month in primary, I xfer to secondary. For whatever reason, it seems to accelerate the clearing process.

But this is Denny we're talking about here, I thought you could just wave your hand and the yeast would fall out for you. That's why we have a yeast named after you, right? 'cause they just follow you everywhere. ;):mug:
 
But this is Denny we're talking about here, I thought you could just wave your hand and the yeast would fall out for you. That's why we have a yeast named after you, right? 'cause they just follow you everywhere. ;):mug:

Man, IF ONLY it worked that way! The reason people _think_ I'm a great brewer is because I never talk about the batches I screw up! ;)
 
I used to secondary until I heard Jamil's podcast. My beers have definitely improved. I don't even secondary my lagers! I just cold store them in the primary. It sounds wrong, but I recently made a German Pils this way and it attenuated down to 1.007. Cleanest beer I have brewed, no off flavors. All secondaries do is oxidize the beer. The key is yeast health. Long exposure to clean yeast won't introduce undesirable flavors, but it will help clean up the beer.



about two or three weeks fermentation, three days diacetyl rest, and 6 weeks lagering in the same carboy, no transfer.

Edited for spelling.
 
Do any of you guys who dry hop in primary wash your yeast afterward? We wash our yeast most of the time, and it seems like all those hops would make that a bad idea, but if it's been done successfully...


When I plan on washing a batch, I run my trub through a paint strainer bag after the boil on its way to the fermenter. If I dry hop, I'll do it in a large hop bag. Those steps make my trub noticeably cleaner when I start the wash from the primary.
 
hmmm i am about to do my first brew tomorrow and i have a question...

would there be any reason why i shouldnt use a glass 5 gallon carboy for my primary for a 5 gallon batch of irish stout? my LHBS said that my primary fermenter has to be at least 6.5 gallons for a 5 gallon batch

i bought a plastic 6.5 gallon carboy and glass 5 gallon carboy so i could do a secondary into my glass, but after reading this thread i realized that secondary isnt necessary... if i can use a 5 gallon glass carboy as a primary for a 5 gallon batch, im going to brew another beer next week
 
hmmm i am about to do my first brew tomorrow and i have a question...

would there be any reason why i shouldnt use a glass 5 gallon carboy for my primary for a 5 gallon batch of irish stout? my LHBS said that my primary fermenter has to be at least 6.5 gallons for a 5 gallon batch

i bought a plastic 6.5 gallon carboy and glass 5 gallon carboy so i could do a secondary into my glass, but after reading this thread i realized that secondary isnt necessary... if i can use a 5 gallon glass carboy as a primary for a 5 gallon batch, im going to brew another beer next week

You definitely don't need a 6.5 gallon carboy for a 5 gallon batch, it just makes it easier. Plenty of people on here do 5 gallon batches in 5 gallon carboys, you'll just need a blowoff tube for the krausen (foam) that raises up on your beer. Otherwise it will blow the top off your carboy and make a mess. Do a search and you'll see tons of threads on making them. Here's a good one.
 
You definitely don't need a 6.5 gallon carboy for a 5 gallon batch, it just makes it easier. Plenty of people on here do 5 gallon batches in 5 gallon carboys, you'll just need a blowoff tube for the krausen (foam) that raises up on your beer. Otherwise it will blow the top off your carboy and make a mess. Do a search and you'll see tons of threads on making them. Here's a good one.
awesome thanks for the links! now i can do another batch at the same time with out buying another carboy :D
 
Like a lot of brewers here on HBT, I've discovered that the transfer to a secondary fermenter really isn't necessary, unless I am doing something like adding fruit or dry hopping. Leave it in the primary 3-4 weeks and I'm good to go.

IIRC, John and Jamil also spoke about leaving in the primary. Stating it was not necessary to leave beer in the primary more than 2 weeks, then bottling (as opposed to 4 weeks which has been a standard line here). May have even been on the same podcast. I believe it was the most recent one on bottling and kegging.
 
IIRC, John and Jamil also spoke about leaving in the primary. Stating it was not necessary to leave beer in the primary more than 2 weeks, then bottling (as opposed to 4 weeks which has been a standard line here). May have even been on the same podcast. I believe it was the most recent one on bottling and kegging.

Glad you mentioned this! I'm new, hooked, and impatient ;) I need those buckets back so I can make more!

I heard / read somewhere:
**1 week in primary, 2 weeks in secondary, 3 weeks in the bottle, then into the fridge. If you don't secondary, then 2 weeks in the secondary and 3 weeks in the bottle.

Then I start reading more and it seems people are going 4 weeks in primary on average. So, here's the question: What is the minimum time in the bucket if you don't secondary? I know that the real answer is, "the beer will tell you". But I don't know my beer well enough yet. In general, I bottle when the hydrometer reading is steady for several days. What else do you take into account when you bottle - for example - bottle when the hydrometer reading is steady, the beer is clear, and it is a full moon on Thursday? :D

Thanks for your thoughts! I'm learning a lot here just lurking around.
 
Glad you mentioned this! I'm new, hooked, and impatient ;) I need those buckets back so I can make more!

I heard / read somewhere:
**1 week in primary, 2 weeks in secondary, 3 weeks in the bottle, then into the fridge. If you don't secondary, then 2 weeks in the secondary and 3 weeks in the bottle.

That doesn't factor in the lag time that often happens to our yeast (as illustrated by the "Fermentation can take 72 hours...." thread. )

If you have a 3 day lag time while the yeast is reproducing, and then arbitrarily decide to rack your beer on the 7th day, you are racking with only 4 days or so of fermentation and more than likely racking way too soon.

You see many threads were new brewers who do that panic becausue suddenly they see this ugly growth on top of their beer after a couple days in secondary. That growth we end up telling them after they post a picture is a krausen and it's because it wasn't finished fermenting to begin with, and got kicked up agin by racking.

OR they post after a week or two in secondary that their beer is stuck somewhere between 1.030 and 1.020....and we tell them that happened because they again racked too soon. and left the yeast they needed to finish the beer behind....

Or they rack over when there is still even a krauzen on top.

So I don't believe in using the 1-2-3 method unless you are counting 1 on the day you actually see a krauzened formed on top of their beer.

In Mr Wizard's colum in BYO awhile back he made an interesting analogy about brewing and baking....He said that egg timers are all well and good in the baking process but they only provide a "rule of thumb" as to when something is ready...recipes, oven types, heck even atmospheric conditions, STILL have more bearing on when a cake is ready than the time it says it will be done in the cook book. You STILL have to stick a toothpick in the center and pull it out to see if truly the cake is ready.....otherwise you may end up with a raw cake....

Not too different from our beers....We can have a rough idea when our beer is ready (or use the 1-2-3 rule which, like I said, doesn't factor in things like yeast lag time or even ambient temp during fermentation and do things to our beer willy nilly, like moving it too early, or thinking our beer is going to be drinkable at 3 weeks....but unless we actually stick "our toothpick" (the hydrometer) in and let it tell us when the yeasties are finished...we too can "f" our beer up.

You can't really do something arbitrarily, you have to learn to "read" your beers, the hydrometer is the best way to do that.

For me, the earliest I would leave my beer in primary is 14 days, but that's to rack to secondary for another two weeks or more if I'm adding something.

My aim is to make the best beer possible, so I am not trying to rush my beers through. I brew enough to have a huge pipeline, so if my beers average 2 months from grain to glass, and win me medals, I'm not going to change.

My answer to those folks who say they want to free up their primaries so they rush their beer through, I say, get more primaries. Buckets are cheap.
 
My answer to those folks who say they want to free up their primaries so they rush their beer through, I say, get more primaries. Buckets are cheap.

:mug:

My wife asked if I wanted another carboy for Xmas; I said "Hell no woman! Get me more buckets!" :)
 
I've not heard that four weeks is standard here. I've heard minimum 10-11 days, preferably three weeks. I think the commentary has also said if you leave it up to four weeks nor worries about autolysis.
 
:mug:

My wife asked if I wanted another carboy for Xmas; I said "Hell no woman! Get me more buckets!" :)

You have a helluvawoman there! :mug:

I've not heard that four weeks is standard here. I've heard minimum 10-11 days, preferably three weeks. I think the commentary has also said if you leave it up to four weeks nor worries about autolysis.

You must not have been reading too many of the discussions about it then. 3-4 weeks is pretty much the standard around here for those who don't primary. Though few do 2-3 months as well.
 
You have a helluvawoman there! :mug:



You must not have been reading too many of the discussions about it then. 3-4 weeks is pretty much the standard around here for those who don't primary. Though few do 2-3 months as well.

I assume you mean those who don't secondary. Yes, four on the outside, but generally what I've seen is three, including posts from you.
 
On average for me 10 days primary, 5 days cold crash primary, into serving keg and 2 weeks on CO2. Then start tasting and usually it's pretty good at that point but gets better 6-8 weeks in total. Then the second 5 gallons which has been waiting patiently for me several more months gets dry hop if needed and is as good as anything you would want to drink.
 
Having read a lot on this forum I'm increasing to 3 week primaries. My fermenter is a bucket with a non-airtight lid (i.e. no airlocks, blow-off tubes etc), is oxygen contamination likely to be a problem in this set up given the low yeast activity after 3 weeks?
 
I've been going 3 weeks all in primary, dry hopping the last week before a cold crash. I think I'm going to change it up a bit and dry hop at the end of week one, then two more weeks on the hops before the cold crash.

I'm still trying to refine my process.
 
I heard / read somewhere:
**1 week in primary, 2 weeks in secondary, 3 weeks in the bottle, then into the fridge. If you don't secondary, then 2 weeks in the secondary and 3 weeks in the bottle.

Let the beer make the schedule, not the calendar.
 
I have gone up to a month in primary then transferred to secondary for two weeks....and it tasted like it smelled....DELICOUS

Secretion Brewery
 
You can't really do something arbitrarily, you have to learn to "read" your beers, the hydrometer is the best way to do that.



My aim is to make the best beer possible, so I am not trying to rush my beers through. I brew enough to have a huge pipeline, so if my beers average 2 months from grain to glass, and win me medals, I'm not going to change.

My answer to those folks who say they want to free up their primaries so they rush their beer through, I say, get more primaries. Buckets are cheap.

As a microbiologist, I can testify that the wee beasties do things in their own time and way - so absolutely - I need to learn how to "read" my beer and you have all given me some great comments to think about (greatly appreciated!).

I guess I'm just the typical newb - too interested in what kinds of things I can do to the brew (some intentional and some not so intentional) that I am spending all of my time worrying about 1> what I did wrong, 2> what I forgot to do, 3> how it's going to taste, 4> what I can do different next time, and most importantly 5> how many buckets I can fit in the "beer room" before the husband blows his top and tosses me and the beer out in the garage (maybe I've got an "in" though because I brew the beer!)

Off to get more primaries! Thanks for all the input!
 
CRAP! I am confused (again)...
Per my LHBS: he recommended that after 9 DAYS I needed to decide whether to go to secondary (which he confirmed wasnt necessary) OR bottle it and condition for the next 4 weeks. I had normal brewing conditions (at least that is what I have summized after a bunch of questions) and opted to bottle it up. I filled two plastic bottles during my bottling and they are firming up nicely....that part that confuses me is that the lengths of time y'all are discussing are much longer than what I was advised. BTW, the LHBS recommended this time line so that I would not get the plastic glove flavor from the spent yeast. I love this guy- he is old school and has been around for decades, but I am really confused....
 
Provided you use that healthy yeast, and not some outdated pack of yeast that's been kicked around on the floor of the LHBS for the last year.
 
after reading this thread I've decided that I need to buy a 2nd carboy.. because I'm going to want to get another batch started before my first one is ready to be bottled :)

Thanks, guys. Very helpful thread.
 
Awesome thread everyone! You have just saved me a lot of work now that I won't be using a secondary anymore. Guess I will have time to brew more batches of beer.
 
Very helpful thread, thanks to the experts that took the time to type out all of this info:) Now, what to do with all these 5gal carboys. lol
 
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