Wyeast 3711 -- I'm officially impressed

Yes, sorry about that, 5 Gallons

I’m using this one for the first time. I originally had intended to drop 0.75 lbs of sugar into the fermenter for a little extra strength and apparent dryness, but all the stories here make me wonder if that’s at all necessary to reach my goal, if not outright detrimental.

Here’s my grain bill:
9 lbs Belgian pale malt
1 lb flaked wheat
1 lb Munich 20L
1 lb Caravienne

Mashed around 151.
OG ~ 1.050
Started fermenting @ 68, and plan to raise 1-2 degrees a day until it reached 75 and then hold.

Hailing all experienced 3711 homebrewers… what do you think? Would adding a measly 0.75 lbs of table sugar significantly hurt or help?

Now I would like to a +1 to the conversation earlier about seeing a relatively low krausen with this yeast. I did a 1L starter on a stir plate, and usually see a good chunky head the following day covering up my vortex. With this one however, it looked like nothing but murky wort. No visible signs of yeast activity. Was a little worried, but I pitched anyway, and it did begin to ferment within 12 hours as evidenced by the airlock. But there have been no yeast theatrics to speak of. 24 hours later there were soapy bubbles on the surface, and 3 days later (today) I’ve got a yeast head no thicker than my pinky. Still, lots of churning, so it’s working.

I have a question for all who have bottled with this strain. It might have just been my water or grain but my bottles all had a haze left on the bottom half with this yeast. This is the first yeast to really ever do that. When I pour no yeast pours out of the bottle either so I think the haze is the yeast stuck to the bottles. I dropped them an oxyclean soak and while I think the yeast are gone (if it is in fact yeast) there is still a haze left. I had to scrub them with a bottle brush.

Anyhow any one else experience a persistent haze from bottling conditioning with this yeast.

Judochop said:

I’m using this one for the first time. I originally had intended to drop 0.75 lbs of sugar into the fermenter for a little extra strength and apparent dryness, but all the stories here make me wonder if that’s at all necessary to reach my goal, if not outright detrimental.

Here’s my grain bill:
9 lbs Belgian pale malt
1 lb flaked wheat
1 lb Munich 20L
1 lb Caravienne

Mashed around 151.
OG ~ 1.050
Started fermenting @ 68, and plan to raise 1-2 degrees a day until it reached 75 and then hold.

Hailing all experienced 3711 homebrewers… what do you think? Would adding a measly 0.75 lbs of table sugar significantly hurt or help?

Now I would like to a +1 to the conversation earlier about seeing a relatively low krausen with this yeast. I did a 1L starter on a stir plate, and usually see a good chunky head the following day covering up my vortex. With this one however, it looked like nothing but murky wort. No visible signs of yeast activity. Was a little worried, but I pitched anyway, and it did begin to ferment within 12 hours as evidenced by the airlock. But there have been no yeast theatrics to speak of. 24 hours later there were soapy bubbles on the surface, and 3 days later (today) I’ve got a yeast head no thicker than my pinky. Still, lots of churning, so it’s working.

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I'd be worried about good attenuation and it being dry enough with that high of a mash temp and a full pound of caravienna. My saisons are mashed at 149 or lower and I only throw in a 1/4lb of crystal or cara malt. So that table sugar may be needed after all to help with the over all dryness.

Usually when I ferment with 3711 it takes off like a rocket with a thick chunky krausen. But everyone's fermentation is different. So while that does sound odd for me, I wouldn't be worried about it.

Homebrewtastic said:

I'd be worried about good attenuation and it being dry enough with that high of a mash temp and a full pound of caravienna. My saisons are mashed at 149 or lower and I only throw in a 1/4lb of crystal or cara malt. So that table sugar may be needed after all to help with the over all dryness.

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I’m discovering that you have a very valid point regarding the unfermentables. I threw this recipe together on a napkin while driving from work to LHBS and didn’t put my usual efforts into researching the style before I formulated my grain bill. Having now looked about a bit, I see that a pound of cara is not going to be to style, so I guess I’d better start expecting something of a Saison meets a Biere de Garde. Which could be interesting nonetheless.

(For the record, it turns out that I mashed @ 150, not 151. So, that’s a wee help in the dry direction.)

I think I will go ahead and add the sugar. Maybe even bump it up to a full pound. If it's big, that's fine. It'll probably get stored cold in the keg for a couple months before getting tapped.

Thanks for the style navigation!

I think that the full pound of sugar will probably help your FG get down to a good level.

Even if it does end a few points high it's not the end of the world. It may not be as dry as your hoping but it's still probably going to be a great beer.

Judochop said:

I’m discovering that you have a very valid point regarding the unfermentables. I threw this recipe together on a napkin while driving from work to LHBS and didn’t put my usual efforts into researching the style before I formulated my grain bill. Having now looked about a bit, I see that a pound of cara is not going to be to style, so I guess I’d better start expecting something of a Saison meets a Biere de Garde. Which could be interesting nonetheless.

(For the record, it turns out that I mashed @ 150, not 151. So, that’s a wee help in the dry direction.)

I think I will go ahead and add the sugar. Maybe even bump it up to a full pound. If it's big, that's fine. It'll probably get stored cold in the keg for a couple months before getting tapped.

Thanks for the style navigation!

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It may not be "dry" to style but I wouldn't add the sugar personally. I'm not much of a "style" guy though. It'll be close enough as is, and certainly dry enough to be called a saison.

I found that even though my Saison went down to 1.004 with this yeast, it leaves such a big mouthfeel that I added 1/2 lb. of sugar to the last one. It's still in the fermenter, but the hydro samples taste just where I want them.

smokinghole said:

I have a question for all who have bottled with this strain. It might have just been my water or grain but my bottles all had a haze left on the bottom half with this yeast. This is the first yeast to really ever do that. When I pour no yeast pours out of the bottle either so I think the haze is the yeast stuck to the bottles. I dropped them an oxyclean soak and while I think the yeast are gone (if it is in fact yeast) there is still a haze left. I had to scrub them with a bottle brush.

Anyhow any one else experience a persistent haze from bottling conditioning with this yeast.

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yes, i have definitely had this same problem with this yeast. good to hear another has as well.

I just drank a bottle of the Saison I brewed with this yeast back in July, 2010. Let me just say I really wish I'd kept a few more bottles around, it tastes better than it ever has, and it's always been a good beer. it has adopted a very malty, sweet flavor that complements the dryness of this yeast well.

smokinghole said:

I have a question for all who have bottled with this strain. It might have just been my water or grain but my bottles all had a haze left on the bottom half with this yeast. This is the first yeast to really ever do that. When I pour no yeast pours out of the bottle either so I think the haze is the yeast stuck to the bottles. I dropped them an oxyclean soak and while I think the yeast are gone (if it is in fact yeast) there is still a haze left. I had to scrub them with a bottle brush.

Anyhow any one else experience a persistent haze from bottling conditioning with this yeast.

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I just bottled my first Saison with this yeast, and I can confirm that my bottles have this haze.. I was shocked, so glad to hear others.

To everyone worrying about the haze, check out this excerpt from the BJCP Guidelines for the style:

Appearance: Often a distinctive pale orange but may be golden or amber in color. There is no correlation between strength and color. Long-lasting, dense, rocky white to ivory head resulting in characteristic “Belgian lace” on the glass as it fades. Clarity is poor to good though haze is not unexpected in this type of unfiltered farmhouse beer. Effervescent.

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Tried a sample of the saison I brewed with 3711 on Sunday & the gravity was already down to 1.005 (OG: 1.050) after one week!

Normally I'm a long primary guy, so this is weird for me - but I'm almost considering kegging it after a week. Would anyone advise against this?

The sample tastes great, with a nice silky mouthfeel for how dry it is, and I'm not sure I want the gravity to drop below where it's at right now.

So - to keg, or not to keg (and let 'er condition a little bit)...?

heywolfie1015 said:

To everyone worrying about the haze, check out this excerpt from the BJCP Guidelines for the style:

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I don't have an issue with hazy beer. The haze we're talking about is left behind on the rinsed bottle. For some reason this yeast when bottle conditioned seems to deposit something on the glass.

Has anyone seen a haze on their carboy glass after primary this this yeast? I do all my fermentations in stainless and better bottles otherwise I'd have an idea already.

Burgs said:

Tried a sample of the saison I brewed with 3711 on Sunday & the gravity was already down to 1.005 (OG: 1.050) after one week!

Normally I'm a long primary guy, so this is weird for me - but I'm almost considering kegging it after a week. Would anyone advise against this?

The sample tastes great, with a nice silky mouthfeel for how dry it is, and I'm not sure I want the gravity to drop below where it's at right now.

So - to keg, or not to keg (and let 'er condition a little bit)...?

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It won't hurt to let it condition a bit before kegging that way you're positively sure. I know some guys have got FGs lower than where you're at.

Burgs said:

Tried a sample of the saison I brewed with 3711 on Sunday & the gravity was already down to 1.005 (OG: 1.050) after one week!

Normally I'm a long primary guy, so this is weird for me - but I'm almost considering kegging it after a week. Would anyone advise against this?

The sample tastes great, with a nice silky mouthfeel for how dry it is, and I'm not sure I want the gravity to drop below where it's at right now.

So - to keg, or not to keg (and let 'er condition a little bit)...?

Click to expand...

I usually err on the side of longer primary as well, but I also had great results with a 3711 Saison that I bottled after 3 weeks.

Having said that, this strain has a mind of it's own. On my latest Saison, gravity readings were holding at 1.004, but after 5 weeks in primary I was still getting airlock bubbles with slight ambient temp changes (+/- 2 deg F from AC kicking on/off) in my house.

Judochop said:

I’m using this one for the first time. I originally had intended to drop 0.75 lbs of sugar into the fermenter for a little extra strength and apparent dryness, but all the stories here make me wonder if that’s at all necessary to reach my goal, if not outright detrimental.

Here’s my grain bill:
9 lbs Belgian pale malt
1 lb flaked wheat
1 lb Munich 20L
1 lb Caravienne

Mashed around 151.
OG ~ 1.050.

Click to expand...

Quoting myself here for reference.

I'd like to report that despite the full pound each of caravienne and flaked wheat in my grain bill, my FG with this yeast got down to 1.004.

Rock.

:rockin:

On.

(I did end up adding a pound of sugar to the fermenter, btw. If anybody is curious to know such things.)

Ok, so it's been in bottle for 2 weeks, and I drank a couple. Really, really tasty. Pepper notes are there, and some real sour/twang. You could almost call it a sour beer! Seems to be much stronger than the sublte lemon I get from Saison Dupont. Wondering if anyone elase has experienced the sourness?

elproducto said:

Ok, so it's been in bottle for 2 weeks, and I drank a couple. Really, really tasty. Pepper notes are there, and some real sour/twang. You could almost call it a sour beer! Seems to be much stronger than the sublte lemon I get from Saison Dupont. Wondering if anyone elase has experienced the sourness?

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Yup, and its delicious. My 3711 saison, that has been carbonated for 3 weeks now, has some nice pepper in the background and a crisp lemony tang right up front. Definitely comes across as a bit sour (a bit, not overly so for me), which I think is beautiful.

Nice.. I love it! What a nice surprise, and will be awesome when a brew again and add some Jolly Pumpkin dregs.

Yup, same here. My saison has some SERIOUS citrus flavors going on in it. I love it. Very refreshing for as high of ABV as it has.

I am using this yeast in a pretty simple rec:
8# 2 row
1# 20L
1 oz pearle @ 60
1 oz saaz @ 20
1 oz saaz @ 5

Any thoughts?

petep1980 said:

I am using this yeast in a pretty simple rec:
8# 2 row
1# 20L
1 oz pearle @ 60
1 oz saaz @ 20
1 oz saaz @ 5

Any thoughts?

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Sounds wonderfully pure. Some folks'll tell you to reduce the crystal for increased fermentability, but as I have discovered for myself, this yeast can make short work of what would otherwise be only moderately fermentable worts.

Judochop said:

Sounds wonderfully pure. Some folks'll tell you to reduce the crystal for increased fermentability, but as I have discovered for myself, this yeast can make short work of what would otherwise be only moderately fermentable worts.

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It just dawned on me I have Belgian Saison and not French. Either way, that recipe will likely maintain.

Any reason I can't use this yeast for an IPA? All my current brews on tap are low IBU and I'm itching for a nice Pale Ale or IPA.

Plan is to keep the temps lower to reduce the characteristic spicy yeasty flavor, just want to have a nice IPA even with this warmer weather. I already do the ice packs in a bucket trick, but have been plagued with high fusel alcohol beers my last two batches.

OG of 1.065 of LME and DME with 60 IBUs and lots of late additions of hops to help balance out the expected low FG. Start fermentation at 68 and move up to 77 over the course of a week. Using part of a yeast cake from my 3.8% Petite Saison I will be kegging. What do you think?

A few weeks ago I used 3711 to brew a iipa. Started around 1.095. Its down to around 1.015. I used 4oz late addition cascade. Fermented at 70 the whole time. I tasted it a few days ago. Very citrusy. Didnt notice any earthyness. Did notice it was a bit hot though. Hoping a couple weeks of aging will mellow that. Will let you know.

petep1980 said:

It just dawned on me I have Belgian Saison and not French. Either way, that recipe will likely maintain.

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Then I'll say a little prayer that you don't get a stuck ferment.

Judochop said:

Then I'll say a little prayer that you don't get a stuck ferment.

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I may run it back and swap it. Everything I read says to get 3711.

The guy at LHBS acted like he knew I'd be swapping it. I'm hoping to do mine prob next weekend, or early the week after.

Do you guys do a long secondary fermentation with it or anything?

Edit: I am also swapping out the 20L for Munich, and adding a little Carafa III for color.

petep1980 said:

I may run it back and swap it. Everything I read says to get 3711.

The guy at LHBS acted like he knew I'd be swapping it. I'm hoping to do mine prob next weekend, or early the week after.

Do you guys do a long secondary fermentation with it or anything?

Edit: I am also swapping out the 20L for Munich, and adding a little Carafa III for color.

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Actually, my sources tell me that the Belgian Saison doesn't really get stuck so much as it just slows. It hits the brakes around 1.035'ish, but as long as you can keep it warm and can wait several weeks or more, it'll eventually do the job you asked of it. This is all second-hand knowledge for me.

Anyway, I've given my saison with the 3711 3 weeks in primary, and plan on giving it another 3-5 weeks in secondary (keg) before tapping. Mostly this is because I don't have the empty slot in my keezer, but I also think a month or two should help the beer's flavors mature a bit and reduce some of that saisony hotness mentioned earlier.

Thanks for the feedback, I guess I won't ramp up the fermentation temp and try and keep it around 70 the whole time.

I just had the first taste of my second batch of Saison using 3711 last night. Yummy stuff. Nice amount of yeast flavor.

I am hooked on this yeast and am going to do another batch soon.

Kunkemonster said:

Thanks for the feedback, I guess I won't ramp up the fermentation temp and try and keep it around 70 the whole time.

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3724 may need higher temps to fully attenuate as mentioned earlier, but I've used 3711 successfully at both a static temp (~68 F) and once ramping up temps to 80 F. Both methods yielded good results. 3711 is pretty versatile, but in my experience (and anecdotally via this thread) you certainly shouldn't need to warm this strain up. Hope your batch turns out well, cheers!

I'm doing a saison in the next few weeks with a fairly simple grist bill. I am however adding about 5 pct acidulated malt and fermenting it with a starter of 3711 as well as a packet of Brett. We'll see if I can get the flavor profile I'm looking for.

Has anyone else harvested and reused 3711 with unexpected results??

For context, I've reused multiple other Wyeast strains without the yeast mutating much between batches before.

I previously brewed a Saison that had bitter lime peel, then harvested the yeast, and recently reused for a standard recipe Saison, but the batch turned out extremely tart. Its been bottled for about a month, and the tartness has a citrus-like bite and I'm wondering if it just picked up that lime peel, or if I've simply got some Acetaldehyde from using about 3 ounces clear candi sugar.

any feedback from the HBT hive-mind?

dcHokie said:

Has anyone else harvested and reused 3711 with unexpected results??

For context, I've reused multiple other Wyeast strains without the yeast mutating much between batches before.

I previously brewed a Saison that had bitter lime peel, then harvested the yeast, and recently reused for a standard recipe Saison, but the batch turned out extremely tart. Its been bottled for about a month, and the tartness has a citrus-like bite and I'm wondering if it just picked up that lime peel, or if I've simply got some Acetaldehyde from using about 3 ounces clear candi sugar.

any feedback from the HBT hive-mind?

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It can't be acetylaldehyde from 3 ozs of candi sugar. I'd bet the farm on that. I'd imagine it's the yeast. Did you use the whole cake from your previous batch? If so, you WAY overpitched and this is likely why the characters are so different. If you didn't pitch the whole cake then I have no idea.

mhenry41h said:

It can't be acetylaldehyde from 3 ozs of candi sugar. I'd bet the farm on that. I'd imagine it's the yeast. Did you use the whole cake from your previous batch? If so, you WAY overpitched and this is likely why the characters are so different. If you didn't pitch the whole cake then I have no idea.

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Haha, not the whole cake. I used a cup or so of slurry to get an appropriate sized starter going (used mr malty calculator).

dcHokie said:

Haha, not the whole cake. I used a cup or so of slurry to get an appropriate sized starter going (used mr malty calculator).

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Smart man! Too many people try racking right into another yeast cake and it doesn't give you an optimal beer.

Just checked my saison the other day, 1.057 to 1.005 in less than 4 days after pitching starter. Thing is a beast, great esters in the hydro sample too!

DannPM said:

Just checked my saison the other day, 1.057 to 1.005 in less than 4 days after pitching starter. Thing is a beast, great esters in the hydro sample too!

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What temps are you working with?

mhenry41h said:

What temps are you working with?

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Pitched at 69, held it there for 10-15 hours at least. After that I let it naturally rise to 74 on day 2. 77 Day 3. 79 day 4.

Grist was the below mashed at 147 for 2 hours, very very fermentable.

7 lbs Castle Pilsner Malt
2 lbs Vienna Malt
1 lb Flaked Wheat
1 lbs Turbanado Sugar

I actually did my batch the other day I pitched with 3944, and I plan to finish with 3711 to really dry it out, and clove it up.

The OG was 1.040 and 3 days in I'm at 1.020. I still have a dense krausen. I could either rack tomorrow and give the 3711 more sugars to it, or let the 3944 just finish, then rack and add 3711 in secondary to finish off the last couple digits or so.

I am heavily leaning towards the second option.

I'm brewing up a modest gravity saison (1.045) with 3711 this upcoming week. I plan on fermenting it at room temperature (75*F) and doing nothing to hold back the fermentation (no water bath, etc). Anyone ferment this thing that warm? Should I be concerned with solventy character at those temperatures? I'm afraid the wife might be a little pissed when she sees 3 fermentors in 3 water baths around the house (I'm brewing up 10 gallons of wit the same morning). Should I face he wrath to keep the temps in check, or will I get good saison character at 80 degrees?