My first Berliner

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centralpabrewer

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I am planning on brewing a Berliner Weisse this weekend. It will be a five gallon batch. 4lbs of German Pilsner malt, 4lbs wheat malt and 1oz Saaz hops in the mash. I plan on taking 1.5 gallons of wort and throwing 1/2 pound of grain into it to get the lacto going, and then doing a 15 minute boil on the remaining 3.5 gallons.

What are my chances of success with the lacto using the "grain method". My LHBS does not carry lacto, and it is too late for me to order it online. I read BierMunchers thread on his Berliner, and he seemed to have success with his lacto this way.

Any thoughts from anyone else?

Also, what is the best water type for this style?

Thanks
 
You might try some lacto from yogurt cultures or probiotics. Dont know if it would work but maybe someone else could chime in. As far as souring with grain in the 1.5gal. It may work may not depends on the amount of lacto in the grain. Some grain may be to "clean" and wild yeast may take over before the lacto. I just did a BW about 3wks ago pitching wyeast lacto a couple days ahead of time and it was nicely sour last time I sampled. Also did no boil with mash hops and decoction.
 
I just did the grain souring method and I'm just so-so with the results. I did a 48 hour sour mash with the full mash, then used a saison strain (wasn't shooting for a berliner weiss). The sourness/tartness is a good level, but real funky. I've only tried a few bottles but they seem to have a soft note of vomit and foot, smelling a bit like the stinky sour mash. This smell is lessening as the beer ages a bit more in the bottle, but isn't quite as clean of a sourness as some of the pure lacto ones I've had.

I've only tried this once, so not sure if this is a typical result, but getting over the smell of a sour mash takes some effort for sure. My only advice is keep the souring mash in a place you won't be able to smell it, it really is that bad. Oh, and use rice hauls, I got a big old stuck mash with mine and the only thing worse then a stinky sour mash is get that crap all over you while trying to get the mash unstuck.

I'd like to hear how it goes.
 
I
What are my chances of success with the lacto using the "grain method".

Little to none. You would be better off just using some acidulated malt in the grist and then adding lactic acid at bottling/kegging than trying to make a Berliner Weisse with a sour mash. Sour mash and lactobacillus are two different animals...
 
I'm not going to do a sour mash. I'm going to do a standard two hour infusion mash at 150f. Then take 1.5gallons of wort from that and inoculate with the grain.
 
Thats going to provide very unknown results, as there are a plethora of other things on the grain as well, if you could get ahold of a commercial berliner and step up the dregs that would be the best bet to doing this
 
I'm not going to do a sour mash. I'm going to do a standard two hour infusion mash at 150f. Then take 1.5gallons of wort from that and inoculate with the grain.

I wouldn't do it, but I hope it works for you.

I look at it this way: We put a lot of time and effort in our homebrews. I would just brew something else until I had better ingredients for a Berliner Weisse.

I agree, stepping up the dregs of a commercial Beliner is a good idea.
 
Little to none. You would be better off just using some acidulated malt in the grist and then adding lactic acid at bottling/kegging than trying to make a Berliner Weisse with a sour mash. Sour mash and lactobacillus are two different animals...

Lactobacillus is the primary player in a sour mash. Barley is absolutely loaded with lacto. that said, it will be completely unpredictable and unrepeatable. IMO sour mash, acid malt and adding lactic acid are all no way to do a Berliner Weisse.

Thats going to provide very unknown results, as there are a plethora of other things on the grain as well, if you could get ahold of a commercial berliner and step up the dregs that would be the best bet to doing this

The problem with this is since lacto is so slow acting, the sacc will be all that is really stepped up, and it may be difficult to get much lacto character.


Bottom line, buy a lacto culture from the lhbs or online and do it right.
 
Ok, I'm taking your advice. I ordered some Lacto D. online and it should be here by Friday.
Would it still be a good idea to take 1.5 gallons of the wort and pitch the lacto and let still at or near 90F for a week and then add to the main fermenter? Or can I just pitch the lacto and the yeast at the same time? I plan on using Safale 06, wheat ale yeast. Anyone see any problems with this?

Thanks.
 
you should pitch it in the whole batch. Keep the whole thing at normal ale temps.
Then you need to decide how sour you want it. You can pitch the lacto first, at the same time or after the yeast. I pitch mine a week before I add the yeast.
 
The problem with this is since lacto is so slow acting, the sacc will be all that is really stepped up, and it may be difficult to get much lacto character.

Bottom line, buy a lacto culture from the lhbs or online and do it right.

I disagree, given warm conditions bacteria will dominate fungi (yeast) any day, keeping the starter warm (80-90F) will provide a great advantage to the lacto in there

On another note, I agree with you that buying the lacto pack is the easiest way to do this
 
Ok, I'm taking your advice. I ordered some Lacto D. online and it should be here by Friday.
Would it still be a good idea to take 1.5 gallons of the wort and pitch the lacto and let still at or near 90F for a week and then add to the main fermenter? Or can I just pitch the lacto and the yeast at the same time? I plan on using Safale 06, wheat ale yeast. Anyone see any problems with this?

Thanks.

depends on how sour you want it, for me pitching at the same time isnt sour at all, I would pitch the sacch ~24hrs after the lacto, much longer than that and you take a chance of lactic acid inhibiting the sacch and not getting this to finish as dry as you want
 
Make a starter for the lacto culture too. You really need to pile the advantages in the Lacto cultures corner, because they can be lazy sons of bitches.
 
I pitched my Lacto 72hrs ahead of the sach. It did take a little longer for the sach to take off because of the acid but the batch is nicely sour at 3 weeks.
 
If I get the Lacto D. on friday, and make a 1 qt starter, is it going to be ready by Sunday when I brew? I have a stir plate and bar, so I'm good there. I am getting the White labs WL677, so could I just pitch the vial in the fermenter, wait 72 hours, and pitch the yeast?
 
Just get it hot. I believe 98F is close to ideal.

you know I've seen this on this forum a lot recently. But I know for a fact that lacto has a tendency to throw some weird phenols, so I would be really leery of doing so. Does anyone have a source saying this is the recommended thing to do and why? Other than well hot makes things grow faster.
 
I meant get the starter hot for propagation. I wouldn't keep the beer itself quite that hot.

But isn't lacto d homofermentive? So it shouldn't be throwing any phenols off at all, right?
 
I meant get the starter hot for propagation. I wouldn't keep the beer itself quite that hot.

But isn't lacto d homofermentive? So it shouldn't be throwing any phenols off at all, right?
I honestly don't know, but I had a berliner spicy phenolic as hell when I went with my tap water once and I just attributed it to the bugs playing with whatever was in the water, as the yeast was us-05 and I've never had that yeast do that.

Can anyone tell me what the water profile should be?
Thanks

Try to match something in Northern Germany.
 
you know I've seen this on this forum a lot recently. But I know for a fact that lacto has a tendency to throw some weird phenols, so I would be really leery of doing so. Does anyone have a source saying this is the recommended thing to do and why? Other than well hot makes things grow faster.


I can't speak about the phenols of lacto, but in the lab where I work we incubate all of our bacillus cultures at 37C/ 98F. They are definitely happiest in the heat.
 
I got my Lacto D., and have the starter going. 1 qt starter. Put in the bugs at 80F, and set the flask on top of my hot water heater. Will the lacto show signs of fermentation, since it does not produce alcohol?
 
I got my Lacto D., and have the starter going. 1 qt starter. Put in the bugs at 80F, and set the flask on top of my hot water heater. Will the lacto show signs of fermentation, since it does not produce alcohol?

I dont use airlocks so I cant comment on that, but it will get very turbid
 
It's been over 12 hours, and I don't really notice any activity. I'm not sure if it warm enough. Anyone know of an easy way to keep it close to 90F? It's only in the mid seventies here today.

Thanks
 
Here are some pictures of my lacto d starter. It's kind of hard to see, but the thermometer in the photo shows about 97F. What I did was use my wifes candle warmer with a ceramic hotplate on top of that. Worked like a champ, kept the temp perfect. This is after two days. Planning the brew for tomorrow, and will pitch the lacto starter and wait 24 to 36 hours to pitch the yeast. One question...Should I just dump the whole starter into the fermenter?

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IMG_5015 (Large).jpg

IMG_5016 (Large).jpg
 
how is it no one seems to be worried about off flavors from the yeast at close to 100 degrees. If i pitch any yeast and lacto but ferment at even 85- isnt the yeast going to throw off a $hitload of esters and phenols and if not-why? The B-weiss i just had was fantastically clean and other than the sourness from the lacto it didin't really haver any other flavor contributions and no phenols i could notice.
 
If you are referring to the starter in the above picture at 100F, it is just Lacto, and no yeast. I dropped the temp of the batch to about 68F before pitching the yeast.
 
nah, youll be good, its so low alcohol that the yeast in there will be fine, even given an extended aging
 
I love Berliner Weisse, especially when you drink it in Berlin ;-)
It's on the list of brews to be cloned !

Just wondering if I will contaminate all my equipement (at least carboys) with lacto or now....
How do you guys get your carboys 'bug' free? will regular PBW and OneStop work?
 
Starsan from Five Star will work for the carboy, adn from what I've heard from others, may work for everything else. Safest is to use/get separate, non-glass equipment (tubing,racking cane, bung, bottling wand), for the "bug" batches.
 
Which yeast will be better for Berliner Weisse: I have Koelsch slurry, and dry american ale yeast (US05)
 
Thank you, so I will pitch kolsh slurry.

One more (possibly stupid) question:

I'm going to pitch lacto first, and yeast 2 days later.
Should I aerate the wort before pitching lacto?
 
When I brewed mine, I just used Safale US-06 Wheat ale yeast, pitched two days after Lacto. I chilled my wort to around 90F, pitched the lacto and then wrapped a blanket around the carboy. Pitched the yeast two days later. Turned out great. And it just keeps getting better.
 
bandwagon'd

i brewed a BW with a 36 hr sourmash of torrified, flaked wheat and 3 lb lite DME & 15 min boil recipe with 1 lb honey and 1 oz Saaz. yeast was 4th gen Roselare Yeast since you want the lacto. i bottled @ 1.010 and carbed and this baby is very carbonated, champagne like. i fear bottle bombs in my near future:p this beer, while being super expedited from brew to bottle, is very very yummy. i'm very happy with this 3.5% alc flavorful lite beer!
 
I kegged my first Berliner today. lacto culture with a 48 hour head start, held at 95 with a heat pad and blanket then finished off with kolsh yeast. I think the sour is just right, but I have only had 2 berliners and they were both domestic versions...
 
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