lager frementation schedule and temp

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allanyork

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I am new to making beer. Do i bought a generic beer starter kit, and a Festa blonde lager kit. From all the reading ive been doing I understand that the instructions that come with the kit are not the best. So I was wondering what you guys thought about the temperature and the length of fermentation. I have access to a room with a temp of 15 degrees C. The yeast used is s-23 from fermentix. What's your thoughts?:tank:
 
allanyork said:
I am new to making beer. Do i bought a generic beer starter kit, and a Festa blonde lager kit. From all the reading ive been doing I understand that the instructions that come with the kit are not the best. So I was wondering what you guys thought about the temperature and the length of fermentation. I have access to a room with a temp of 15 degrees C. The yeast used is s-23 from fermentix. What's your thoughts?:tank:
Click to expand...

If you have not already, Google John Palmer How to Brew. It is a book that has been published online. Great start for all your questions. I would not have started with a Lager myself.
 
Yeah, its a lot more difficult to brew lager from what I understand. And it takes longer. But my favorite beer is colson canadian and im trying to brew something similair. Any ideas anyone? Should i pitch the yeast in the primary for acouple hours then put the primary in 15 degrees for 3 weeks? Then transfer to final for another 3 weeks? Unfortunatly I cant lower the temperature more then that
 
First off, welcome to the forum. Typically kit instructions fail at their fermentation procedure recommendations. They usually give generic guidelines like, keep in primary for one week than transfer.

15C is fine, in fact, well within the 9-23C guidelines listed by Fermentis, www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFG_S23.pdf. Keep in mind that the guidelines are referring to the temperature of the beer, not the ambient temperature. Typically, fermentation raises the temperature of the beer a few degrees higher than the ambient temp. This is more pronounced with ales than with lagers in my experience. Still, you'll be in the yeast's temperature range.

You'll read in Palmer's online How To Brew about diacetyl rest for lagers. I would say to sample the beer as fermenation appears to be winding down. If you taste a buttery, diacetyl flavor, then do the diacetyl rest, if not, I would skip that step. I've heard several prominent homebrew figures like Jamil Z and Gordon Strong speak about not doing a diacetyl rest, I've also heard from good brewers in my homebrew club about this approach. I'm trying it myself for the first time with a doppelbock I have fermenting. Once fermentation is complete, for a lager, probably about 3-4 weeks, (once the gravity readings are stable over a period of several days), you can then cold crash, or move the beer into a secondary vessel if you want it to clear up and give the beer time to lager/bulk condition.

I hope this helps :mug:
 
This does help thank you. I'll ferment in the primary at 15 degrees ambient temp for 3-4 weeks. Then transfer to a second vessell (glass carboy) for another 3 weeks? Then bottle for another 3 weeks? After bottled is it ok to have it in my apartment ie room temp?
This dicetyl rest, is that when you bring it to warmer temperatures for a day and then back to colder temp to continue to ferment? It takes some of the crappy taste out right
And settles the beer a little better?
Pie_Man said:
First off, welcome to the forum. Typically kit instructions fail at their fermentation procedure recommendations. They usually give generic guidelines like, keep in primary for one week than transfer.

15C is fine, in fact, well within the 9-23C guidelines listed by Fermentis, www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFG_S23.pdf. Keep in mind that the guidelines are referring to the temperature of the beer, not the ambient temperature. Typically, fermentation raises the temperature of the beer a few degrees higher than the ambient temp. This is more pronounced with ales than with lagers in my experience. Still, you'll be in the yeast's temperature range.

You'll read in Palmer's online How To Brew about diacetyl rest for lagers. I would say to sample the beer as fermenation appears to be winding down. If you taste a buttery, diacetyl flavor, then do the diacetyl rest, if not, I would skip that step. I've heard several prominent homebrew figures like Jamil Z and Gordon Strong speak about not doing a diacetyl rest, I've also heard from good brewers in my homebrew club about this approach. I'm trying it myself for the first time with a doppelbock I have fermenting. Once fermentation is complete, for a lager, probably about 3-4 weeks, (once the gravity readings are stable over a period of several days), you can then cold crash, or move the beer into a secondary vessel if you want it to clear up and give the beer time to lager/bulk condition.

I hope this helps :mug:
Click to expand...
 
allanyork said:
This does help thank you. I'll ferment in the primary at 15 degrees ambient temp for 3-4 weeks. Then transfer to a second vessell (glass carboy) for another 3 weeks? Then bottle for another 3 weeks? After bottled is it ok to have it in my apartment ie room temp?
This dicetyl rest, is that when you bring it to warmer temperatures for a day and then back to colder temp to continue to ferment? It takes some of the crappy taste out right
And settles the beer a little better?
Click to expand...

After bottling, you should leave it in a dark space that is roughly 70f (20c, I think) so it can bottle condition.

And yes, your description of diacetyl rest is correct. Early in the fermentation, the yeast create diacetyl. Late in fermentation, the yeast will "clean up" diacetyl. Warming it at the end of the fermentation period promotes this cleanup. After the cleanup, you cool the beer down to lagering temperatures (basically as cold as you can get it without freezing).
 
Diacetyl is often described as a buttery or butterscotch flavor. It may also come across as slightly nutty or caramel like in low amounts. Diacetyl can also created a slickness to the beer.

You can do the diacetyl rest and that's fine, or if you don't taste it as fermentation is subsiding, you can forgo it according to the sources I listed in my previous post. There are other posts on this forum discussing the merits of the diacetyl rest if you're interested.
 
Ok thanks, ill have a look. I guess my lager, won't really be largered if im lagering it at the same temp that it was fermented at. Is there even any point to lager it then ? If its at the same temp? Or will the beer still benifit from it?
 
allanyork said:
Ok thanks, ill have a look. I guess my lager, won't really be largered if im lagering it at the same temp that it was fermented at. Is there even any point to lager it then ? If its at the same temp? Or will the beer still benifit from it?
Click to expand...

While I've not done this myself, I would think there is still a benefit to letting the beer "lager" at the 15C temp. You may want to search the forum for "swamp cooler" as a way to decrease the temperature a little. It's basically placing your fermenter in a tub of water and adding bottles of ice to the water in order to lower the beer's temperature. That should get your beer at least a couple of degrees cooler.
 
Lagering doesn't necessarily mean cold lagering. It can mean carbonating/conditioning your ale in bottles at 70F or using whatever other temp is required for the style.

Wow - a real lager beer first time out of the chute? Here I thought I was being overly ambitious by adding steeped specialty grains and dry hopping to my first Mr. Beer kit.:D
 
Turns out the room temp is 21 c hmmmm....turned the thermostat down to 10 in the storage room. I might return the lager a buy an ale
 
Yes, you could use an ale yeast.

I too had concerns about doing a lager (a maibock) considering the necessary lower temperatures. Suggestions were given that I could use a clean ale yeast like US-05 and not need those low lager temps. I ended up making a fermentation chamber from a freezer and doing the lager instead of using ale yeast.
 
Hmmmm. I'll have to stop into the store to see if I can find some yeast or I might just wing it with what I have.
 
One of the more important things about brewing is proper temperature control. Mastering this is one major key to producing great beer batch after batch. This is why it is typically suggested to brew ales first as the temperatures that they ferment at are much easier to adjust/control. Plus with many lagers, the flavors are not as "strong" so any flaws are more noticeable, which can frustrates newbies.

Substituting an ale yeast might not be a bad idea. Plus ales mature quicker so you don't have to wait as long. Now if you do have a place where you can maintain 10 C for the 2-3 weeks while it ferments, and you like lagers, and have the patience to wait, then go for it. Then ideally it should be cold conditioning for 3-4 weeks (lagering) at just above freezing. I brewed quite a few lagers though were I had no way to chill below 10 C and those beers turned out fine. I just took longer for them to condition (yeast to settle). I now can lager year round
 
OK. But if I was to go pick up an ale yeast is the wort so different that it would taste off? I'm wondering what it would do to the flavor of the blonde lager wort. The s 23 yeast that glcomes with the kit says it can ferment between 18-23 but ideally 8-12. I'm considering picking up a liquid ale yeast and using that if I'm not going to create an abomination. So the type of yeast has a large impact on flavor?
 
Don't think the wort is the main difference, the yeast and fermentation process is, afaik.

You're not going to get an abomination by any means, but by the same token you're not going to get the exact style intended if you use a different yeast.
 
allanyork said:
OK. But if I was to go pick up an ale yeast is the wort so different that it would taste off? I'm wondering what it would do to the flavor of the blonde lager wort. The s 23 yeast that glcomes with the kit says it can ferment between 18-23 but ideally 8-12. I'm considering picking up a liquid ale yeast and using that if I'm not going to create an abomination. So the type of yeast has a large impact on flavor?
Click to expand...

If I am not mistaken, 8-12 will give you the lager you are looking for. On the other hand, 18-23 will give you a California common. Basically you use the same yeast, but stress it into creating "off flavors" to a specific style.

Someone correct me if I am wrong. I almost made the mistake of buying a yeast with a much larger temp range because it would allow me to lager at ale temps. Not so much...
 
Unless you can control the ferment to actual Lager temps (around 10C, 50F) with that lager yeast, switch to an ale yeast that suits the temps you can maintain (which will normally be room temp + 3-5 degrees F unless you use cooling techniques).

I don't see a problem taking the ingredients in that lager kit and making ale from it. It won't be as crisp and clear as a lager, but who cares if it's your first batch and it tastes good?

If it were me, I'd grab a pack of dry ale yeast, steep a pound of medium crystal grain (40-60L) for 30 min at 155F (68.5C) for flavor/color, bring to boil, add the kit stuff, and roll with it.
 
Well. Last night I stopped pondering ideas and what to do. I just did it. Pitched it directly with 2 packets of s23. Its bubbling pretty good now at 20 c. Guess we will see what happens. I'll let you guys know. Hopefully its not a train wreck. My next beer will probley be an ale. But I'd also like to try out the festa continental pilsner
 
You'll know in a couple weeks when you take a hydrometer sample and taste it. Did you take an OG reading?

Hopefully it will turn out good.
 
What will the abv be? The kit says it should end at 1.010 to 1.008. If I wanted to strengthen it abit could I add sugar to the secondary when I rack it?
 
allanyork said:
What will the abv be? The kit says it should end at 1.010 to 1.008. If I wanted to strengthen it abit could I add sugar to the secondary when I rack it?
Click to expand...

ABV = (OG - FG) * 131

Could you add sugar to the secondary to strengthen it? Yes, that is technically feasible. Adding sugar will increase the ABV, but it will also alter the body and flavor of the beer. I probably would not add any sugar, but you're the brewer. I just think it's important for you to taste your first beer as is, so you can learn from it. If the beer comes out tasting thin, or has a odd flavor, it'll be more difficult to pinpoint the cause of that flavor since you've added additional variables. My thoughts, enjoy your first beer and once you're a little more experienced with recipe design, fermentation, etc., then play around. Just my thoughts.
 
I do agree with what you are saying. Just curious about the idea. With that equation abv should be 4.7 which is alright I guess. I would be happier with 5.5 to 6 though. Perhaps I'll experiment on my next batch
 

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