Stuck in a 50% eff rut.. I would like to use a lifeline, phone a fellow HBTer

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ahave

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Pittsburgh, PA
I could use some help with my mash efficiency.. I switched to AG after a year or so of brewing. I currently have 4 AG batches under my belt and have yet to hit a mash efficiency over 52%. I have tried no-sparge, batch sparge, and even fly sparge methods and still get less than expected results. When switching to AG I didn't expect to hit higher efficiencies at first but after this many batches it is quite frustrating to see no improvements. I have been compensating by buying more grains and longer boils, but after making my dry porter a 'caramel porter' I am needing to understand my errors.

  • I mash in a keggle with SS false bottom and pickup tube. (I do not preheat my mash tun, but it seems to work)
  • I typically hit my mash-in temps (~150*F).
  • Mash with 1.25 qt/lb
  • I measure my mash/sparge water and wort with 'ok' accuracy (just using ale pail to 'eyeball' .25gal increments)
  • I get my grains from one of the two LHBS in town.. they crush it for me also.
  • I do a starch test for conv, usually 45-60min is needed to convert.
  • I have read through the braukaiser wiki.

So far I have the following ideas to troubleshoot this issue:
  • get my grains crushed at the other LHBS.
  • Purchase crushed grains from online source (any suggestions?)
  • be more accurate with mash water measuring (use nalgeen to measure off in 32oz increments)
  • better thermometer? Current dial probe is kinda hard to read accurately, I have also fried 2 digital ones (steam)..
  • take first running SG measurement. (I typically just start the sparge/no sparge process)
  • replace strike water container with cooler (currently using bottling bucket)

Is it normal to get such low efficiencies staring out?
Is using an ale pail typically good enough for volume measurements?
What are some good dial / digital thermometers to get?
Should I just splurge and get a grain mill?

I know this question gets asked a lot, but I am just looking for a lil' guidance – thanks in advance!
 
Are you using tap water?
How much preboil volume do you usually collect?
When you clean out your mashtun after the brew day is over, do you find a gallon or more wort in the bottom of the tun?
 
Well, you've kinda answered some of your own questions about accuracy of equipment. Thermometer is probably most important here. Volume is fairly important, but so long as you're reasonably close to your desired mash thickness, I can't imagine it could cause efficiency to be lower than 60% at worst.

I wouldn't be too quick to blame the crush, but it's certainly a possibility. A LHBS wouldn't be in business for long if every one of their customers were getting bad efficiency, ESPECIALLY with another shop across town as you mention.

One thing you didn't flesh out for us in your explanation that might help the diagnosis is how much grain are you typically mashing, what size batches are you doing, how much sparge water are you using, and water is your target pre-boil volume?

My AG process really got dialed in once I figured out (through trial and error):

1- what mash thickness works best for me (I find at least 1.5qts/# works for me)
2- how much water my grains absorb (.13gal/# - this is a number that will be dependent on your crush)
3- what's my actual boil-off rate (so I can know exactly when to stop sparging).

Sorry if you've heard this advice before, but knowing these numbers will allow you to get the maximum rinsing of sugars from your grain. So I have an 11# grain bill for a brew. Here's how much water I use:

-1.5qts/# means I need 4.125gal strike water
-absorption means I will lose 1.43gal (.13gal/# times 11#)
-my boiloff rate is 15%/hour
-it's a 5.5gal batch with a 60min boil, so I will need 6.47 gal at the beginning of the boil (5.5/85%)
-So I need 3.775gal of sparge water (6.47 minus 4.125 plus 1.43)

Once I figured all this stuff out, I got my efficiency to the 75% target I've been shooting for.
 
I could use some help with my mash efficiency.. I switched to AG after a year or so of brewing. I currently have 4 AG batches under my belt and have yet to hit a mash efficiency over 52%. I have tried no-sparge, batch sparge, and even fly sparge methods and still get less than expected results. When switching to AG I didn't expect to hit higher efficiencies at first but after this many batches it is quite frustrating to see no improvements. I have been compensating by buying more grains and longer boils, but after making my dry porter a 'caramel porter' I am needing to understand my errors.

  • I mash in a keggle with SS false bottom and pickup tube. (I do not preheat my mash tun, but it seems to work)
  • I typically hit my mash-in temps (~150*F).
  • Mash with 1.25 qt/lb
  • I measure my mash/sparge water and wort with 'ok' accuracy (just using ale pail to 'eyeball' .25gal increments)
  • I get my grains from one of the two LHBS in town.. they crush it for me also.
  • I do a starch test for conv, usually 45-60min is needed to convert.
  • I have read through the braukaiser wiki.

So far I have the following ideas to troubleshoot this issue:
  • get my grains crushed at the other LHBS.
  • Purchase crushed grains from online source (any suggestions?)
  • be more accurate with mash water measuring (use nalgeen to measure off in 32oz increments)
  • better thermometer? Current dial probe is kinda hard to read accurately, I have also fried 2 digital ones (steam)..
  • take first running SG measurement. (I typically just start the sparge/no sparge process)
  • replace strike water container with cooler (currently using bottling bucket)

Is it normal to get such low efficiencies staring out?
Is using an ale pail typically good enough for volume measurements?
What are some good dial / digital thermometers to get?
Should I just splurge and get a grain mill?

I know this question gets asked a lot, but I am just looking for a lil' guidance – thanks in advance!

If I were to guess where your problems lies, it would be the crush. Its possible that BOTH lhbs are not crushing your grains adequately. Think about it: it is in their best interest to not mill your grain correctly....they end up sell more grain to brewers trying to make up for poor efficiencies.

Few ways to test this:
1. Have lhbs run your grains through the mill twice.
2. Buy your own mill, or find somebody with a mill and have then crush it for you.
3. Go elsewhere for your grain and see if it helps. Since you asked, I would recommend Brewmasters Warehouse (they are a sponsor here). I've made a number of batches with grain crushed by them and consistently hit 70-75% efficiency.

Another thing to think about: Hitting and maintaining temps during Mash, Sparge, etc. That would also mess with your efficiency if your thermometer reading is off. Have you tested it? Have you calibrated it lately?

Lastly, I don't think its your volume measurements that are off FWIW. Unless there is something really whacky with your buckets, you aren't going to be that far off in your measurements to make this big of a difference?

Good luck!
 
Woa, thanks for the quick responses!

I will try and address most of your questions:

Water source:
I am using standard east Tennessee tap water (medium hardness). My ph test strips suck and only tell me my ph is between 4 and 6.

Wort left over in mash tun:
Some wort, but no more than .75 gal... maybe .5 gal. My pickup tube goes all the way down. It is somewhat hard to measure, but I can get a better estimate next brew session.


Brew session:
I typically aim to collect 6.5-7gal preboil and end up with ~6gal postboil... 5.5 in ferm, 5 in keg

  1. My last brew session used 13 lbs of grain.
  2. I mashed with 4 gal of ~170*f water, mash tun room temp ~65*F
  3. Temps were a bit low (first brew this winter) and added .25 gal of near boiling water to bump my temp to 151*F (target)
  4. My notes say i fly sparged with 5gal @ 175*F (1.5qts/#) which gave me ~7 gal pre boil with a SG of 1.031.
  5. I then boiled down for an extra hour (until I lost a full gallon of wort) before beginning my hop additions.
  6. Ended up with 5.5 gal @ 1.046 - just about all trub went into ferm (wasnt much)
I suppose I could have collected less for the preboil but I did not expect my evaporation rate to be so much less in winter. (dry/cold air cant hold as much moisture?)
 
IMO, you should be sparging with more water. Forget the qts per pound method and just aim to get half of your preboil volume. Your efficiency should go up with that one step alone, then rinse with the other half after you drain your tun.

definitely have the lhbs run your grains through twice.
 
Definitely need a reliable thermometer ( unless like the monks you can calculate water temp by boiling and mixing).

Try mashing in at a lower temp
113 F for half an hour
131 F for 15 minutes
144 F for half an hour
151 F for half an hour to 40 minutes
154 F for fifteen minutes
Mash out at 164 F
Then Batch sparge at 170
It's a total PITA to do this manually, but you can do it.
I know I know the diastatic power of modern malts is ~ ~ ~ yadda yadda yadda ~ ~ ~ . But still, it's within your power to do it and see if it helps

Also you might try a decoction.
 
+1 on having them run the grains through twice.

I use a paint strainer bag to mash in a standard 5-gal cooler and get my grain double-crushed. My normal efficiency is around 80%. First time I did all grain (which used this method) my planned 1.050 Hefe turned into a 1.064 Weizenbock.

14 quart mash (at 150-154) plus a nice hot 12 quart sparge (around 165F) gets me 82-85% with light grainbills.
 
Usual suspects...

Crush. If it doesn't have significant amounts of flour, it isn't crushed enough.

Dough balls. Thinner mash helps. I mash 1.5-2.0 quarts/lb much easier to stir.

Thermometer. If your thermometer isn't accurate... well, you're toast.

pH. "Medium hardness" isn't too specific. Maybe try 5.2 stabilizer if you don't want to mess with water chem.

Even no-sparge brewing I would hit 78% efficiency on a 1.046 beer. The problem lies within the mash...
 
+1 on Brewmaster's Warehouse. I use the stove top all grain brewing method and with the BMW crush on the grains I hit about 80% efficiency every time
 
Grain crushing is not rocket science (usually), ask your LHBS what gap setting they have on the mill. Get a pound crushed from both places and compare. Put up a photo here so HBT'ers can tell you which is better and if they are good or not.

I pretty much believe in buying your grains local and tasting them to learn what's what. Maybe they don't have demanding customers who know what the crush should be.
 
Alright, so I went back the the LHBS and got the exact same grains. The owner said he had never done a double crush before but wouldn't mind trying. I am still learning what a good crush is (if i have even seen one yet), but the first crush looked 'ok' - I didn't see any grains that were whole. After the first crush he tightened a single bolt and ran the grains through again. This time a lot more dust was kicked up most of which was absorbed by my coat/shoes.

I think the mill they use is homemade, it doesn't look very big (~3-4" cube) and is powered by a drill.

I will be brewing tomorrow - this time with a no-sparge - hopefully I can see something better than 50%. Here are some photos of the grains after the second crush. Could someone comment on these photos? The stuff looks pretty pulverized to me...

Thanks again!

http://img710.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=1001270.jpg
 
Are you keeping temps throughout the mash? I used to lose quite a bit and have to top up with a bit of boiling water once or twice per mash.

Check the mash ph also? 50% seems awfully low.....are you sure that you are measuring/calculating correctly?
 
Something often overlooked when troubleshooting efficiency is to make sure your post-boil volume measurements are accurate!!! I was having similar issues where I was calculating my efficiencies and getting as low as 42%. I tried everything you had and it was driving me crazy. In fact what was happening was that I had marked my fermenter (incorrectly) in gallon increments and was basing my calculations off of that. I'd calculate my gravity against what I thought was 5 gallons but was really closer to 5.5 or 6 and that was throwing my numbers waaay off. Since fixing that I get 70-75% every time with batch sparging.
 
Definitely need a reliable thermometer ( unless like the monks you can calculate water temp by boiling and mixing).

Try mashing in at a lower temp
113 F for half an hour
131 F for 15 minutes
144 F for half an hour
151 F for half an hour to 40 minutes
154 F for fifteen minutes
Mash out at 164 F
Then Batch sparge at 170
It's a total PITA to do this manually, but you can do it.
I know I know the diastatic power of modern malts is ~ ~ ~ yadda yadda yadda ~ ~ ~ . But still, it's within your power to do it and see if it helps

Also you might try a decoction.

There is no need for any of that. At all.

EXCEPT: Mashout. 168. Will help a lot.
 
Last year in the middle of the year I had my eff drop drastically somewhere around 85-90 down to 60 for 2 batches. All grain crushed at my LBHS. After the second time I noticed that alot of the grain wasn't cracked well. Next time I had them crush it two times and poof right back up.
 
Alright, so I went back the the LHBS and got the exact same grains. The owner said he had never done a double crush before but wouldn't mind trying. I am still learning what a good crush is (if i have even seen one yet), but the first crush looked 'ok' - I didn't see any grains that were whole. After the first crush he tightened a single bolt and ran the grains through again. This time a lot more dust was kicked up most of which was absorbed by my coat/shoes.

I think the mill they use is homemade, it doesn't look very big (~3-4" cube) and is powered by a drill.

I will be brewing tomorrow - this time with a no-sparge - hopefully I can see something better than 50%. Here are some photos of the grains after the second crush. Could someone comment on these photos? The stuff looks pretty pulverized to me...

Thanks again!

http://img710.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=1001270.jpg




I don't see any flour in those pictures...
 
Get your own crusher...

From the sounds of it, you'll recoup the cost in a few batches of 13lb, 1046 beer..

Just according to BS, but if I change a few recipes from current #'s, to
13lbs's of grain, the OG estimate goes up to near 1080..
A couple 10g batches I have call for less than you used in a 5g batch.

I too was wondering about the temp loss.. Is the tun insulated? Do you check the temp after 15 or 45 minutes?

Starting at ~150 is great, but if it drops off to 130 it's not doing any good.
 
I don't see any flour in those pictures...

What about all the powder stuff on my hand? http://img214.imageshack.us/i/1001272s.jpg/
I suppose I should compare this against what a good crush should look like.

My keggle is not insulated, but I do keep a lid on it and lightly wrap it in a beach towel. The not-so-great thermometers that I use do not show much drop, maybe 2-4 degrees.

I think my next equipment investment will be a blichmann brewmometer. My thoughts are to just add a 'T' fitting to my keggle coupler and add the thermometer there. I know it is not idea location for taking temperatures, but I think if I just pull off some wort while I take a temp reading it should give an accurate temp.
 
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