Electric Herms mashing method

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bloke

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hi,

I´m building and fine tuning my electric HERMS system and i do need to ask how you guys are doing your mash.
I found out that when I mash in at around 122 F(50C) and want to heat up to mash temp to 150f (66C) by running the wort through a 5meter,10mm diameter copper coil in side an HLT at 150F it takes like forever. I had to increase the HLT temp to get the mash into right temp. But I don´t like that method at all.

the Idea was to let the PID hold the HLT temp and be able to get a nice temperature controlled mash.

How are you doing it?

please help a Herms novice
 
Why do you mash in at such a low temp? I typically mash in at the temp I plan on using for the mash. So, I'll set my system to 152-154 and let it warm up completely to that temp first. Then I mash in. It usually takes my temp down shortly, but quickly returns back to where it needs to be. Works well for me?
 
Yes I understand you. I think I will do like that next time. One reason i build my HERMS system was to be able to do step mashing.
 
I was able to raise ~7 gallons in my mash from 122 to 150 in 15 minutes. I had my hlt set at 162. I use 50ft of 1/2 copper. I am all electric and had a pump mixing my hlt so I did not have any stratification. I did this for a hefe where I wanted a rest at 122. For a single infusion, heat the hlt to the strike temp, transfer water into mash tun to heat it. I ccyle this for a minute or two, then dough in. Btw, A lot people will say herms is not good for stepping.
 
Agreed, I just set my system exactly how it will be for the mash, with my liquor in the MLT, my sparge in the HLT, set the PID to my mash temp and begin recirculating everthing. From there I simply mash in, and the system corrects itself for the temp drop within a few minutes
 
As mentioned above, HERMS systems aren't very good for step mashes. It simply takes too long to warm up from step to step. I wouldn't have believed that prior to having a HERMS system, but now that I use one I totally understand why its difficult to do. They are excellent for single infusion mashes, but not very good for other processes.
 
As mentioned above, HERMS systems [[that use the HLT as the heat source]] aren't very good for step mashes.

fixed^^

the HLT is too large of a thermal mass to change temperatures very quickly. you also need a very good flow rate of wort thru it to change the temp in the mash tun in any reasonable amount of time.

simply adding more heat to the HLT will appear to bring the mash up to temp faster, but it will overshoot the temperature of the mash inside the HLT in the process and possibly denature your enzymes. think of this setup like running hot tap water thru a coil in your mash to heat it. the heat source is in your basement and is so far removed from what you are trying to heat, it takes a long time.

the other side of the spectrum is the HERMS tubes you see people using, where you pass the wort directly over the heating element in a small chamber. the wort that actually contacts the element surface could overheat just as easily, as the element itself can get above 212*F while on. think of this like a single pot of water on the stove; good for imparting heat quickly, but can scorch your wort if your not careful.


what i plan on using is somewhere in between. more like a double boiler that you would use for candy as to not burn it. it has a much smaller thermal mass at 1gallon, so the 2kW heater should be able to raise the water temperature very quickly. the wort also never touches any surface that is above the desired temperature, even for a small amount of time, so no chance of burning. the 1/2" copper tube has enough flow rate to circulate a good amount of mash per unit of time, so you should be able to hit target temperatures fairly quickly with good PID settings. I am going to be doing some data logging on it this weekend to see just how efficient it is.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/ghost6303/beer/b9f4e1f7.jpg
 
I don't know why you guys have a hard time step mashing in a HERMS. I step mash every time, and I have my 25 ft copper HERMS coil in my HLT. My elements are 4500W. I circulate the hot liquor to avoid stratification, and open the MLT valve about 40-50%.

My typical medium body ale mash schedule is roughly 145-150-156-168. My typical light lager schedule is 133-149-154-168. Of course it varies depending on malt varieties and such.

It takes about 15 min max to go between steps.

It could depend on the power of your elements, PID programming, HERMS coil length and diameter, and recirculation flow rate.

TB
 
I don't know why you guys have a hard time step mashing in a HERMS. I step mash every time, and I have my 25 ft copper HERMS coil in my HLT. My elements are 4500W. I circulate the hot liquor to avoid stratification, and open the MLT valve about 40-50%.

My typical medium body ale mash schedule is roughly 145-150-156-168. My typical light lager schedule is 133-149-154-168. Of course it varies depending on malt varieties and such.

It takes about 15 min max to go between steps.

It could depend on the power of your elements, PID programming, HERMS coil length and diameter, and recirculation flow rate.

TB

I hope you don't step mash every time. That is a total waste of time and actually kills the body of a brew done with a fully modified malt. Protein rests are only necessary on undermodified malts and almost all domestically available malts available today are fully modified. For fully modified malts the best results are accomplished with a single infusion mash. If you don't believe me, here is what Palmer says in his book "How to Brew".

Chapter 14 - How the Mash Works

14.4 The Protein Rest and Modification

Modification is the term that describes the degree of breakdown during malting of the protein-starch matrix (endosperm) that comprises the bulk of the seed. Moderately-modified malts benefit from a protein rest to break down any remnant large proteins into smaller proteins and amino acids as well as to further release the starches from the endosperm. Fully-modified malts have already made use of these enzymes and do not benefit from more time spent in the protein rest regime. In fact, using a protein rest on fully modified malts tends to remove most of the body of a beer, leaving it thin and watery. Most base malt in use in the world today is fully modified.
 
I hope you don't step mash every time. That is a total waste of time and actually kills the body of a brew done with a fully modified malt. Almost all domestically available malts available today are fully modified. If you don't believe me, here is what Palmer says in his book "How to Brew".

Well, I step mash about 95% of the time, but dont always use a protein rest. Like I said, it depends on malts used, amongst other things. I use a lot of under-modified pilsner malts, since I predominantly brew German/Czech light ales and lagers (at least since the completion of my eHERMS).

Believe me, I'm well aware of modified malts.

TB
 
Also, not that it really matters, but I think 15 mins between steps is actually a ramp mash, but if it works for you and you are putting out a good, consistenct product, then good on ya mate!
 
Well, I step mash about 95% of the time, but dont always use a protein rest. Like I said, it depends on malts used, amongst other things. I use a lot of under-modified pilsner malts, since I predominantly brew German/Czech light ales and lagers (at least since the completion of my eHERMS).

Believe me, I'm well aware of modified malts.

TB

I believe you. I have no reason not to. I see a lot of posts by newbies proclaiming that they want to build systems that can step mash and have absolutely no clue why. They have no idea what malt modification is but they think "step mashing" sounds cool. When they finally brew they want to know why their beer has such a thin consistency. The only time I use a rest schedule is when brewing with some wheat malts. Otherwise I use fully modified malts and a single infusion works well. It really simplifies and speeds up the brew day.
 
It could depend on the power of your elements, PID programming, HERMS coil length and diameter, and recirculation flow rate.

TB

This. With my old HLT, it would take FOREVER to even get to mash out temps, let alone to go from a protein rest to a saccrification rest! I now have a 5500w element in there, and it's fast and easy.

I still rarely step mash in the system, as I make mostly American style beers, and when I make pilsners and bocks I do decoctions, but I can hit mash out temps now in just a few minutes with the HERMS.
 
Also, not that it really matters, but I think 15 mins between steps is actually a ramp mash, but if it works for you and you are putting out a good, consistenct product, then good on ya mate!

Even further, based on the data from the recent BYO/BBR mash experiments, 15 mins isn't a step OR ramp mash - in most cases the mash is already over as fully modified malts reach full conversion in 20 minutes or less.

Step mash if it makes you feel good, but in reality, your mash happened at whatever temp you doughed in at.
 
Also, not that it really matters, but I think 15 mins between steps is actually a ramp mash, but if it works for you and you are putting out a good, consistenct product, then good on ya mate!
Haha, no, not holding for 15 minutes - rising for 15 minutes, then holding at target temp. I typically hold no shorter than 20 minutes at a temp, but more often it's around 30-40 mins for each alpha and beta sacch rests.

Even further, based on the data from the recent BYO/BBR mash experiments, 15 mins isn't a step OR ramp mash - in most cases the mash is already over as fully modified malts reach full conversion in 20 minutes or less.

Step mash if it makes you feel good, but in reality, your mash happened at whatever temp you doughed in at

I strongly disagree with this. Perhaps their experiments led them to believe such a thing, but never in my life have I brewed a batch that would've demonstrated that nonsense. Maybe we're just using completely different malts, but I can prove that a 20 minute full conversion at 140F (where I often dough in) is certainly NOT what's happening in my MLT.

Here is some more discussion about multiple sacch rest mashing. Some benefit, some don't.

TB
 
It could depend on the power of your elements, PID programming, HERMS coil length and diameter, and recirculation flow rate.

TB
This. With my old HLT, it would take FOREVER to even get to mash out temps, let alone to go from a protein rest to a saccrification rest! I now have a 5500w element in there, and it's fast and easy.

I still rarely step mash in the system, as I make mostly American style beers, and when I make pilsners and bocks I do decoctions, but I can hit mash out temps now in just a few minutes with the HERMS.

Precisely. Just about every single brew system will perform differently.

The only time I do a protein rest is when I'm brewing with unmalted grains (such as wheat berries, etc.) or using under-modified Moravian or German Pilsner malts. Most of the time I do a multi-step sacch conversion, and have noticed a considerable increase in attenuation, clarity, and efficiency. Whether or not these are all attributed to step mashing, I can't honestly say with scientific certainty. However, I noticed these results only with the step mashed batches. BTW, I have no problem with single infusion mashing.

TiberletsgoredwingsBrew
 
I strongly disagree with this. Perhaps their experiments led them to believe such a thing, but never in my life have I brewed a batch that would've demonstrated that nonsense

Well, you can look forward to reading about the "nonsense" in an upcoming BYO issue. :p

140 is very low - below the full starch gelatinization point - so you may very well never see complete conversion because the enzymes don't work on solid starch.
 
Vinnie @ Russian River has mentioned the short mashing times as well in interviews. I am a believer in it.
 
bloke said:
hi,

I´m building and fine tuning my electric HERMS system and i do need to ask how you guys are doing your mash.
I found out that when I mash in at around 122 F(50C) and want to heat up to mash temp to 150f (66C) by running the wort through a 5meter,10mm diameter copper coil in side an HLT at 150F it takes like forever. I had to increase the HLT temp to get the mash into right temp. But I don´t like that method at all.

the Idea was to let the PID hold the HLT temp and be able to get a nice temperature controlled mash.

How are you doing it?

please help a Herms novice

Your mash will heat from top down. Where are you measuring the temp. Are you stirring your hlt somehow? The water can stratify and a portion of your hex coil could be in this relatively cold water.
 
Well, you can look forward to reading about the "nonsense" in an upcoming BYO issue. :p
No offense to you, or the fine folks at BYO, but I've read "nonsense" in many brewing texts before. What makes this particular article gospel?

140 is very low - below the full starch gelatinization point - so you may very well never see complete conversion because the enzymes don't work on solid starch.
Aren't you the one who said:
your mash happened at whatever temp you doughed in at.
:confused:

Vinnie @ Russian River has mentioned the short mashing times as well in interviews. I am a believer in it.
I don't know what else to tell you. I can prove that short mashes (in beta range) don't attenuate and clear up as well as longer ones, at least in my brewery. Everyone's brewery is different I suppose.

TB
 
Your mash will heat from top down. Where are you measuring the temp. Are you stirring your hlt somehow? The water can stratify and a portion of your hex coil could be in this relatively cold water.
You are right - that's why the HLT generally has a stir setup or a second pump is used to recirculate HERMS water. My solution?

183-s.jpg


I set my HLT temp 2° higher than my MASH temp. Works well for me.
 
You are right - that's why the HLT generally has a stir setup or a second pump is used to recirculate HERMS water. My solution?

183-s.jpg


I set my HLT temp 2° higher than my MASH temp. Works well for me.

Nicely done. Moving water over the coil will also make the heat transfer much more efficient.
 
No offense to you, or the fine folks at BYO, but I've read "nonsense" in many brewing texts before. What makes this particular article gospel?

Dude - I get it. You're a massive proponent of step mashes. I didn't intend to piss on your Wheaties, nor did I ever claim BYO was gospel.

As for temps, WTF? I assume you're a relatively versed brewer and realize that conversion speed - like any chemical reaction - increases with heat. 140 is VERY low. Even you know that, admit it. As you will see in the data for the article, for average mash temps, highly modified malts convert very quickly.

Have a homebrew bud, sounds like you need one! :mug:
 
Dude - I get it. You're a massive proponent of step mashes. I didn't intend to piss on your Wheaties, nor did I ever claim BYO was gospel.

As for temps, WTF? I assume you're a relatively versed brewer and realize that conversion speed - like any chemical reaction - increases with heat. 140 is VERY low. Even you know that, admit it. As you will see in the data for the article, for average mash temps, highly modified malts convert very quickly.

Have a homebrew bud, sounds like you need one! :mug:

Wow, very unlikely reaction. I don't care much for smug low blows, so it appears that we're through. We know where each other stand.

Cheers,
TB
 
I tried a multi step mash for my flanders red today. I have an eherms and a 70 quart cooler with copper manifold mash tun. It took around 25 minutes to go from 122 to 148, 15 mins from 148 to 162, 8 minutes 162 to 168 for mash out. I had a pump recirc the hlt and one on the mash the whole time. I had 5 lbs of flaked wheat and maize. I added .5 of rice hulls, but still had a little slower than normal flow. I had to stir the bed a few times. I noticed the top of the bed was always a few degrees higher. Is this fast enough for a step, I would say no. Felt like a constant ramp. Won't know how the end product taste for 6 months to a year :(

Oh, I don't use a sparge manifold, I have a silicon hose laying on top of the bed for the return.

I got ~85% eff.
 
...........As for temps, WTF? I assume you're a relatively versed brewer and realize that conversion speed - like any chemical reaction - increases with heat. 140 is VERY low. Even you know that, admit it. As you will see in the data for the article, for average mash temps, highly modified malts convert very quickly.

I may have lost something coming in late, but your statement that chemical reaction increases is really not correct when it comes to mashes. The chemical reaction doesn't doesn't speed up, it changes. Different chemical processes happen at different temperatures. As the mash heats different enzymes perform specific reactions all controlled by the wort temperatures. Different beers have different requirements and a single infusion mash may work fine for some beer types but certainly not all. Same reason there is not only one yeast. Then again my background is in chemistry so I have been told I am opinionated.
 
I may have lost something coming in late, but your statement that chemical reaction increases is really not correct when it comes to mashes. The chemical reaction doesn't doesn't speed up, it changes. Different chemical processes happen at different temperatures. As the mash heats different enzymes perform specific reactions all controlled by the wort temperatures. Different beers have different requirements and a single infusion mash may work fine for some beer types but certainly not all. Same reason there is not only one yeast. Then again my background is in chemistry so I have been told I am opinionated.

In general the rate of a chemical reaction is dependent on the temperature. While the various diastatic and other enzymes present in malt have different temperature optima (for use in mashing), and their rates of denaturation increase as temperature increases, the rates of the reactions that they catalyze increase with temperature as well.

What exactly is your background in chemistry?
 
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