Electric burners - Any builders out there?

My heat sink (40 amp) running a 5500w element gets too hot to hold my finger on it. It is the standard heatsink that comes with the chinese SSR's. When its not WFO, it is only warm.

onthekeg said:

My heat sink (40 amp) running a 5500w element gets too hot to hold my finger on it. It is the standard heatsink that comes with the chinese SSR's. When its not WFO, it is only warm.

Click to expand...

Ok so you likely have the exact SSR and sink that I do it sounds like.

Please excuse my ignorance.... what does "WFO" stand for?

Did you use thermal grease when you mated the sink to the SSR?

I assume the boil will be the hottest moments for the SSR.

onthekeg said:

My heat sink (40 amp) running a 5500w element gets too hot to hold my finger on it. It is the standard heatsink that comes with the chinese SSR's. When its not WFO, it is only warm.

Click to expand...

Yup.

The whole thing got hot as hell in my panel, too (5500W element and a 40A chinese SSR w/ the chinese heatsink).

My SSR just died a couple of weeks ago, too. And I think it was because of heat stress. I had NO ventilation in my box at all. Solid steel box that sealed up completely. You at least have vent slots cut in the back. But my panel also isn't nearly as crowded as yours.

I replaced my dead SSR and then added fans to the panel.

you will need to use thermal grease for sure.

WFO = Wide F*cking Open

Walker said:

you will need to use thermal grease for sure.

WFO = Wide F*cking Open

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HA! good stuff!

Seeing as how I plan to use this on 10G batches.... WFO is exactly how I will be using it.

Looks like you have an "innie" and an "outty" fan. Cool idea. Looks like I might be throwing in another terminal block section or two to add a fan, or flip the SSR on its side and cut a hole in the project box.

CidahMastah said:

Looks like you have an "innie" and an "outty" fan. Cool idea. Looks like I might be throwing in another terminal block section or two to add a fan, or flip the SSR on its side and cut a hole in the project box.

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Yes, that's exactly what I did. One blows air in and the other blows it out. It stays much cooler now.

It's a little ugly the way I retro-fitted it in there, because I needed as 12V DC power supply for the fans.

Let me see if I can find a picture. You'll get a laugh out of it.

Nope. I don't have a pic on my phone. What I did was install a standard wall receptacle INSIDE the box. And plugged an old cordless phone wall wart into it, and then attached the wires to the fans.

The hot connection for that internal receptacle is connected to the same switch that enables my element contactor. So, when I flip the switch to enable the contactor, the fans come on, too.

It's just weird looking to see something plugged in on the inside of my panel like that.

Well at this point, mine is gonna get a little ugly as well. Notsure there is space for a fan "inside" the box. But necessity is the mother of invention. I am not out for a new project box just yet.

Walker said:

Nope. I don't have a pic on my phone. What I did was install a standard wall receptacle INSIDE the box. And plugged an old cordless phone wall wart into it, and then attached the wires to the fans.

The hot connection for that internal receptacle is connected to the same switch that enables my element contactor. So, when I flip the switch to enable the contactor, the fans come on, too.

It's just weird looking to see something plugged in on the inside of my panel like that.

Click to expand...

Ha! But you know what.... It works right?!

CidahMastah said:

Well at this point, mine is gonna get a little ugly as well. Notsure there is space for a fan "inside" the box. But necessity is the mother of invention. I am not out for a new project box just yet.

Click to expand...

You need a power supply for the fan(s), too. I don't think you can find one that runs on 120V AC.

I used one of those big heatsinks that you can mount 4 SSR to, what Kal calls the "overkill" heatsink. Even that huge thing gets a little warm (not hot, but above ambient) when I've got an element going 100%.

they do have fans that run on 120VAC, but 12V is much more common because almost every PC has/needs a fan and has a 12V DC power source.

Walker said:

You need a power supply for the fan(s), too. I don't think you can find one that runs on 120V AC.

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This should work right?

http://www.radioshack.com/product/i...787&retainProdsInSession=1&numProdsPerPage=60

I still don't know a "great" way to mount this sucker to my box. Will have to buy one and look at the sizing. I knew this was going to be an issue,...

I may go ghetto fabulous and sink on the outside of the box. Then take a small fan (like one you use for a breeze in the summer) and point it at the sink. That would be a temporary thing, but would let me use it without frying my SSR prematurely.

CidahMastah said:

I still don't know a "great" way to mount this sucker to my box. Will have to buy one and look at the sizing. I knew this was going to be an issue,...

I may go ghetto fabulous and sink on the outside of the box. Then take a small fan (like one you use for a breeze in the summer) and point it at the sink. That would be a temporary thing, but would let me use it without frying my SSR prematurely.

Click to expand...

In this pic....



Is there room to put a 1.5" thick fan between the SSR and that far wall of the box?


Maybe rotate the SSR 90* and slide it closer to the PID? That might give space to put the fan there and get good airflow over the fins.

The vent slots at the back of the box should be sufficient for exhaust.

Walker said:

In this pic....

Is there room to put a 1.5" thick fan between the SSR and that far wall of the box?

Maybe rotate the SSR 90* and slide it closer to the PID? That might give space to put the fan there and get good airflow over the fins.

The vent slots at the back of the box should be sufficient for exhaust.

Click to expand...

I think the relocation as you are describing it is the only way to get a fan in there. I will have to look tonight to see. The only part that is a pain is the top cover takes of half of that side wall as well. This means the fan can't mount to the top AND the bottom, just one or the other or the top cover can't come off without disconnecting it.

I had also thought, attache the SSR to the side wall, put a fan on the bottom and blow up. But you would see the mounting screws of the SSR in the side wall.

CidahMastah said:

But you would see the mounting screws of the SSR in the side wall.

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You're making a very good point, but to the wrong guy. My system is ugly and I don't give a rat's ass, because it works.

Walker said:

You're making a very good point, but to the wrong guy. My system is ugly and I don't give a rat's ass, because it works.

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Haha! Well I would stick by my Grandfather's philosophy on this one. The best carpenter's aren't the ones who never make mistakes; there the ones make the mistakes appear to be part of the work.

i.e. perhaps that is where I will be putting a brew panel name plate haha j/k!

then again my buddy would say "you can't polish a turd"

At the end of the day, ugly working is better than a pretty failure - totally agree.

Alright - some freakin awesome news!

Last night I was able to remove and replace/ rewire the subpanel in my garage. I then laid in one 240 outlet and wired in the GFI box as well. After approval I switched everything on and success! Took about 1.5-2 hours to do it all, check all the connections etc.

Next, just to see if I was on the right page I plugged in my control box (no heat element hooked up though). Sure enough my green power indicator turned on as did the PID! So now I am ready to cut a hole in my brew pot, may do that tonight or tomorrow!!! I didn't think I would be at this stage in the game just yet. Who knows, maybe I will be able to brew my Rye IPA this weekend with the element!

My man card just got punched a couple of times after this effort.


Just curious, since i haven't read the PID manual yet. Do I have to program that thing at all, or can I just flip it into manual mode and go from there? i.e. is the PID user friendly? I only plan on using it to heat strike water in and boils right now.

You might be able to get away with no programming to use manual mode.

1. Select proper probe type. Maybe. You don't need the probe to be giving any meaningful readings for manual mode (PID doesn't use probe input in that mode) but you might have to at least tell the PID what kind of probe it is.

2. Select proper output mode. Maybe. I don't remember what PID you have, but some can use a relay output or an SSR control output. If yours is configurable in that regard, set it to SSR.

That should be it I would think.

Your probe will eventually need to be calibrated so that it reads 212 in boiling water (and sanity checked that it reads 32 in ice water), but that won't matter for manual mode right now.

Oh, and you might need to configure the parameters for manual mode. There will be a time interval defined somewhere that should be set to something like 2 seconds, maybe less.

And, of course, the percentage of "on time" over that interval, which will be shown on the "sv" (set value) window of the pid.

Thanks Walker - will start to digest the manual, and try your suggestion as noted above. Hopefully that will give me the quick start I am looking for.

I was considering cutting a hole in a HD bucket to attempt a fit check and quick element test (going through the bottom with the element sticking up). This would be a very basic test to see if the element begins to heat the water. If it does, then it is pot hole cutting time. Does this sound like a reasonable way to check the system without committing to cutting that hole in my pot?

My rationale is, I don't want to cut into my pot if I can't use it to boil this weekend with electric. I have a big starter that has been going for my IPA and I want to use it


Btw: I have the auberins PID (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3)

Just curious - if I unplug the PID (control box) between brew sessions, will have to reprogram each time?

Yeah, if you want to do a full heating test before cutting your kettle, then you would have to do something like that with the bucket or whatever. I tested functionality with a lightbulb (connected between SSR output and neutral), making sure the PID could turn it on and off, and then I just went for it with the element.

I'm a little concerned about the fact that your bucket can't/won't be grounded and you will have the element coming up through the bottom. Meaning... if it leaks, the water will run all over the electrical connections on the element.

and remember that even if you leak test it first, the plastic will get warm and may loosen. Leak free at before heating doesn't mean leak free after heating.

Spooky.

the PID retains programming when it is powered off.

Walker said:

Yeah, if you want to do a full heating test before cutting your kettle, then you would have to do something like that with the bucket or whatever. I tested functionality with a lightbulb (connected between SSR output and neutral), making sure the PID could turn it on and off, and then I just went for it with the element.

I'm a little concerned about the fact that your bucket can't/won't be grounded and you will have the element coming up through the bottom. Meaning... if it leaks, the water will run all over the electrical connections on the element.

and remember that even if you leak test it first, the plastic will get warm and may loosen. Leak free at before heating doesn't mean leak free after heating.

Spooky.

Click to expand...

Yup you nailed my two concerns on the head.... The malleable nature of plastic when hot, and the leak potential of it being underneath the bucket.

Regarding the grounding, the 2 gang box isn't a sufficient ground?

Great news about not having to re program the PID after power off.

OK so the manual says "For SSR output, t is set at the
minimum (2 seconds). For relay or contactor output, it should be set longer to
prevent contacts from wearing out too soon. Normally it is set to 20~ 4 0
seconds."

Since I am using the contactors as a way to switch on and off the elements, this won't effect me right? That is, I am not turning the switch on and off, rather, current will be cycled on and off through the closed switch. Therefore it will not wear out the contactor as noted above?


Edited 1/17/2012

For my PID I did the following:

1. In display mode 1 or 2 press "set" and hold for two seconds to display parameter menu.
2. Press "set" 9 times to get to "t" - use increment and decrement buttons to set value to "2" for SSR outputs.
3. Press "set" and use increment and decrement buttons to set "SN" code to 21 for (PTD100Rtd probes)
4. Press "set" and if "Dp" = "0" then leave as is for F degree reading.
5. Press "set" 12 times (A/M) use increment and decrement buttons to set value to "0" for manual mode

note the following assumptions:

a. OP-A (output mode) for the SYL-2352 PID is only available in the SSR control output configuration - so there is no need to set it.
b. COOL (System function, i.e. heating/cooling) for the SYL-2352 PID it is preset to 10 and that is the correct setting for heating and F temp; C = setting 2).

To operate in Manual mode with the above set:
1. press "A/M" to switch to manual Mode
2. use increment and decrement buttons to set value for % of power to element


To Autotune:
1. Press "set" to get to "at" - use increment and decrement buttons to set value to "2". It will flash and automatically start autotune. To do this correctly you want to autotune with your typical strike water volume and you have to be over 10F away from that target (start the autotune early, it seems to work better IME).
2. Once it is done on autotune you need to go in and reset the a/m back to "1" so you can use auto and manual heating modes. Autotune pushes the A/M setting back to 2 (manual mode prohibited).

CidahMastah said:

OK so the manual says "For SSR output, t is set at the
minimum (2 seconds). For relay or contactor output, it should be set longer to
prevent contacts from wearing out too soon. Normally it is set to 20~ 4 0
seconds."

Since I am using the contactors as a way to switch on and off the elements, this won't effect me right? That is, I am not turning the switch on and off, rather, current will be cycled on and off through the closed switch. Therefore it will not wear out the contactor as noted above?

Wanted to make sure I was reading this right.

Click to expand...

The "contacts" they are talking about are for relays built into the PID itself. They are not talking about your external contactor. You are good here.

ha - duh... read that completely wrong - thanks for the clarification

actually, I kind of read it wrong.

However, what they mean is that if you are using the PID to switch on and off a mechanical relay of some sort, then you want a longer time period specified so that the thing isn't click-clacking all the freaking time and killing itself.

If you are driving an SSR, then there are no moving parts to wear out and the cycle time can be set lower.

Rather than do a bucket test... If you have a multimeter (and you really should for debugging any of this) I'd use that to measure the voltage at the plug for your element. You can essentially do a dry test, make sure that you're getting voltage when you expect it. At that point you should feel confident that you have proper control and go ahead with cutting the hole in your brewpot. Or, if you don't feel comfortable sticking metal probes into 240V by umpteen amps (I don't blame you) - you can just use the indicator lamps on your SSR (assuming yours has them, mine did).

I do have a multimeter (used it to check continuity and diagnose my junker cars over the years) - I was more interested in seeing if the element was working correctly. I believe I may be over thinking this though. Either way I am committed. Probably should just get that hole in the pot and call it a day. If it doesn't work, I can always boil in the MT - just have to clean it first

Was thinking about that (two tiny probes stuck in a 240... ugh no thank you :cross:

About that thermal grease. I can't find any locally, which sucks because it ruins my chance for a test. They have the thermal compound, but that stuff is an adhesive right? So once i put it on it would be a bear to get off?

I have never used the stuff before so my assumptions could be wrong. Feel free to drop a little knowledge.

If you are scared of sticking the meter probes into the 240V, then you picked a terrible f*cking project to work on. You are going to have to stick the probes onto some 240V nodes in the thing at some point.

Regarding thermal paste: You have no RadioShack near you?

Walker said:

If you are scared of sticking the meter probes into the 240V, then you picked a terrible f*cking project to work on. You are going to have to stick the probes onto some 240V nodes in the thing at some point.

Regarding thermal paste: You have no RadioShack near you?

Click to expand...

Just curious, why would I have to test via the probes? Based on my wiring, 240 should be coming out. If any less is coming out it wouldn't hurt the element. Not sure why a multimeter would be a better test then hooking up the element for a dry run.


Radio shack doesn't have it - they only have the compound, not the grease. Since I don't know my final location of for the SSR, I don't want to permanently attach it for to the sink.

CidahMastah said:

Just curious, why would I have to test via the probes? Based on my wiring, 240 should be coming out. If any less is coming out it wouldn't hurt the element. Not sure why a multimeter would be a better test then hooking up the element for a dry run.

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It's not about checking whether you have more than 240V. Its about checking whether the SSR is switching properly and the right wires are connected to the right terminals on the receptacle and all that jazz. You can certainly test it by plugging the element in. I'm an engineer, and I like to test things in small pieces as I put something together.

I tested everything as much as I could before I plugged the element in, but that doesn't mean YOU have to do that.

CidahMastah said:

Radio shack doesn't have it - they only have the compound, not the grease. Since I don't know my final location of for the SSR, I don't want to permanently attach it for to the sink.

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That compound is not a glue. Just a grease and non-adhesive. It's exactly what I use. (little tube with orange and red label that says "Silicone Based Heat Sink Compound")

Walker said:

I tested everything as much as I could before I plugged the element in, but that doesn't mean YOU have to do that.

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Gotcha. That is a sound approach, I just figured if I could avoid poking in there I would. I spent a lot of time being careful with my wiring and triple checking connections and paths when i was done against my schematic. I guess I was relying on that, not that I am above making a mistake!

Walker said:

That compound is not a glue. Just a grease and non-adhesive. It's exactly what I use. (little tube with orange and red label that says "Silicone Based Heat Sink Compound")

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I should have read that label! I saw some that said non-curing (online) but the girl in the store said the grease kind they didn't have in the store, and she thought the compound was hard to get off once it cured. So that made me think, adhesive...

Darn shack employee!

Well grew some brajoles and got the multimeter out - glad I did. One of my concers was that I wired the contactors backwards - I did. So that was a great time saver, rewired so they are correct. Getting a reading of 238V steady at either outlet when they are switched to the on position. No juice cruising through at shut off. All other systems go, just have to get the pot ready.

The programming was as easy as noted above. At least, I think. Until I do a test boil, it doesn't prove anything

What exactly do you mean when you say you wired the contactor backwards? They don't really have a forwards or backwards.

I wired the left one right and the right one left on the switch

On - Off - On was reversed - so the BK was the HLT and vice versa - I had the switch up side down when I wired it

Man new egg is fast. So get this, ordered some of the silicone based stuff online yesterday for the heat sink (thermal grease). The stuff is being delivered to my house today!! - unreal how fast they are.

Looks like this weekend I should be able to do a test, if not the maiden strike water/boil run on the element. All that is left is drilling two holes and installing the element and the probe to my BK/HLT Pot.

I am going to watch that heat sink like a hawk. I have one of those laser termperature guns (shoot the laser beam at the object and it reads temps). So that will be pretty key in safely/quickly determining the heat sink temp accross the strike water heating or boil test runs.

My mega pot is pretty wide and a broad circle. From an eyeball fitiment perspective (of the element) based on the curvature of my pot, it looks like I will be able to thread the nut on once the hole is in. Let's hope that is true!