Is my water unusable?

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rivercity_homebrew

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I am just starting to gather supplies to go all-grain. I asked my local water utility for a water report. It is missing a few important levels- sodium, bicarbonate- but I'm on a budget and I don't want to drop an extra $40 on a full Ward Labs test.

Here are my important levels:
Total Hardness- 508 mg/L
Ca- 112 ppm
Mg- 55.5 ppm
Alkalinity (Total CaCO3)- 342 mg/L
ph 7.18
Chloride- 161 ppm
Sulfate- 53.4 ppm
PO4- 1 ppm
Iron and Manganese are minimal.

I know the water is extremely hard and the Magnesium is high.

I have a few questions:
-If I dilute 1:1 with Distilled/RO water will it rescue my water? Do I need to go to a higher percentage?
-I live in West Bend, WI am I at risk of high sodium or bicarbonate?
-What is my best bet to adjust my pH downward. I don't want to add more Ca or Mg. Sour malt? Lactic acid?

Thanks for any help.

Ian
 
The main factor in pH will be total alkalinity(bicarbonate). 342 is high, but it depends what you are brewing. For dark beers like stout you should hit your mash pH around 5.2 without a problem. Use it for a pilsner and you'll definitely be too high. Cutting with distilled water works, but you'll be cutting ALL the minerals in the water, even the ones you want like calcium. It really depends on what you are brewing but in general I think you'll be using quite a bit of distilled water. The good news is once you get some experience tinkering with your water, it's a snap to customize your water for each recipe/style you brew...
 
I am just starting to gather supplies to go all-grain. I asked my local water utility for a water report. It is missing a few important levels- sodium, bicarbonate-

In telling you pH and alkalinity they are giving you the information you need to compute bicarbonate but bicarbonate isn't important - that's why they don't bother to report it. Alkalinity is the key parameter here.

With all the other data it is possible to estimate that the sodium content is about 50 mg/L.


I know the water is extremely hard and the Magnesium is high.
So is the chloride but the killer is the alkalinity. Even with a dark beer you would probably need some acid (unless you use inordinate amounts of roast/colored malts).

-If I dilute 1:1 with Distilled/RO water will it rescue my water? Do I need to go to a higher percentage?

Yes. 1:1 dilution cuts everything in half. You want alkalinity to be below 50 and even then need some acid in the mash. 9:1 would be a more reasonable dilution for this water but if you are using a 9:1 dilution why not just use straigt RO water? See the Primer.


-I live in West Bend, WI am I at risk of high sodium or bicarbonate?
As noted above your bicarbonate is approximately 61*342/50 = 417 which is high but what you care about is the high alkalinity. Also as noted above your sodium will be a bit high at 50 mg/L but that's not really too terrible.

-What is my best bet to adjust my pH downward.

I think there is little question that the most straightforward path to proper mash pH is the use of RO water. There are things you can potentially do with this source such as supplement calcium and then treat with lime or boiling but these are a little involved and if done right require that you measure the post treatment hardness and alkalinity to see what you have realized.


I don't want to add more Ca or Mg. Sour malt? Lactic acid?
Probably not as so much would need to be added that the lactic flavor would most probably shine through into the beer. Best bet IMO is RO with a more modest sauermalz addition.
 
Follow up question-

Do I need to use RO water for the sparge as well as the mash? I will be batch sparging. Its not really that expensive, but every little bit counts.
 
Yes, most probably though you could acidify with the same caveat that the acid anion concentration will be high because there is so much alkalinity to overcome.
 
Go to Palmer's book "how to brew" and read the section on water. I think it will show that your water is a little closer than some of the advice you're getting. For example, getting your bicarbonate below 50 ppm isn't necessary unless you're brewing a pale beer....
 
Go to Palmer's book "how to brew" and read the section on water. I think it will show that your water is a little closer than some of the advice you're getting. For example, getting your bicarbonate below 50 ppm isn't necessary unless you're brewing a pale beer....

Dude, AJ is one of Palmer's sources for the upcoming book on brewing water. You shouldn't dismiss him so easily.
 
That tap water would not likely make very good beer, regardless of the grist used. 342 ppm alkalinity is far too high for any grists I've used or evaluated. Even half that alkalinity would be darn high. The other huge problem is the magnesium content. At 55 ppm, its going to add an astringent bite that will not be pleasant. The chloride is fairly high also, but its less of a problem.

Given the conditions of that water, significant dilution with RO or distilled water is highly recommended.

Printing a book is much like ringing a bell...you can't really get that information (or the sound) out of the environment. Unfortunately, How to Brew has many poor recommendations and information on brewing water. Hopefully, the publication of Palmer's new book on Water will help supercede the How to Brew misinformation.
 
afr0byte said:
Dude, AJ is one of Palmer's sources for the upcoming book on brewing water. You shouldn't dismiss him so easily.

Just trying to help. I guess this post was for VIP's only. My bad...
 
9:1 would be a more reasonable dilution for this water but if you are using a 9:1 dilution why not just use straigt RO water?

+1 to that. If this was my water it'd be starting with 100% RO or distilled and building it up from there.

The good news about doing this is that you can quite litterally make anything as you start with a clean slate of (very close to) 0 for all your minerals.

After a bunch of batches you'll end up with the exact amounts you need to use for the various 'styles' you want to brew such that you won't even have to plug in the numbers into a spreadsheet anymore.

Kal

P.S. Looking forward to Palmer's new 'Water' book... I pre-ordered it almost a year ago... ;)
 
Just trying to help. I guess this post was for VIP's only. My bad...

No, I wasn't trying to say it was for VIP's. I was just letting you know that AJ isn't pulling these bicarbonate numbers out of his posterior. I actually personally prefer 70-100 alkalinity for my really dark porters or stout (lots of crystal/dark malt).
 
afr0byte said:
No, I wasn't trying to say it was for VIP's. I was just letting you know that AJ isn't pulling these bicarbonate numbers out of his posterior. I actually personally prefer 70-100 alkalinity for my really dark porters or stout (lots of crystal/dark malt).

Your preference aside I've read plenty that recommend higher bicarbonate for dark beers. I realize there's always different approaches that will work, but that doesn't change the common wisdom...
 
Your preference aside I've read plenty that recommend higher bicarbonate for dark beers. I realize there's always different approaches that will work, but that doesn't change the common wisdom...

Have you checked your mash pH with a calibrated meter? AJ has done so for his dry stout and gotten a reading of 5.5 with water that had 60 for a bicarb value. Granted, some base malts (e.g. rahr) might have a lower DI mash pH.
 
Your preference aside I've read plenty that recommend higher bicarbonate for dark beers. I realize there's always different approaches that will work, but that doesn't change the common wisdom...

Ah, but the "common wisdom" has changed greatly since Palmer wrote "How to Brew" and he has often said that even the Third Edition needs to be updated. Even Palmer is working on this new book (going to be released in October?) to update the things he said that he "got it wrong" in the past.

Mabrungard and AJdelange know far more about this than I do, and I wouldn't be quick to disregard their advice. They are the experts in this field, actually.
 
...new book (going to be released in October?) ....

Yes, I think it will be. The writing and tech edit are complete and, as I understand it, it's 'in production'.

Really the bottom line on all this is that if the mash pH is correct the alkalinity level is correct given the grist components and acid and alkali additions (if any). I and others have found that the fact that a beer is dark does not necessarily mean that it will require that supplemental alkalinity be added. OTOH we also now know from Kai's work that some caramel malts supply more acidity than the roast malts so that a lighter colored beer, with lots of caramel malt may require supplemental alkalinity. We have also found out some interesting stuff about how the commonly added alkalis work.

Yes, much of the common 'wisdom' has fallen by the wayside and the tablespoons full of chalk or bicarbonate in every stout (which, IMO, has ruined more beer than any other piece of wisdom) was, I thought, finally dead.
 
So, assuming you guys are legit, how would you "build" your water from scratch starting with 0 in all values? Please answer for pale, mid-amber and dark for an appropriate range. Thanks!
 
Personally, I'd start by getting my calcium up to 50ppm. Usually I'd use calcium chloride for the majority of the calcium, unless I'm brewing a pale ale or IPA, then I'd use mostly gypsum (to get my sulfate to about 150 or so...others like higher). For a pale beer as a general rule I'll have zero alkalinity and a bit of acid. For my ambers, 0 alkalinity with no acid tends to work out for me. For dark porters / stouts (lots of dark malt and crystal) I tend to use an alkalinity of 75-100 (I dilute with my 214 alkalinity tap water). If I didn't dilute I'd use some pickling lime to up the alkalinity and add calcium. I do this all based off of the Bru'n Water spreadsheet and then verify proper pH with a meter (though I haven't recently, since I tend to brew similar beers pretty often, so I know what's about right). One should note that I normally use Rahr 2-row which has a DI pH around 5.55. Others will require more acid if their base malt has a higher DI pH.
 
For hop forward beers (American IPA, Pale Ale, Amber, etc) I usually go with something like this:

Ca=110, Mg=18, Na=16, Cl=50, S04=275

(Basically Randy Mosher's ideal Pale Ale numbers with slightly less Sulphate).

For light coloured lagers, blonde ales, wheat beers, Helles, and other balanced beers:

Ca=49, Mg=10, Na=16, Cl=69, S04=69

(Hit minimums on Ca and Mg, keep the Cl:SO4 ratio low and balanced).

For British Pale Ales, ESB, etc:

Ca=110, Mg=18, Na=17, Cl=49, S04=92

(Basically Randy Mosher's ideal Pale Ale numbers with slightly less Sulphate and a Cl:S04 ratio of 1:2 - we're not making a hoppy American beer here so I go a bit easy on accentuating bitterness).

More S04 makes the bitterness 'sharper'. Less makes it more 'rounded'.

YMMV

Kal
 
And bicarbonate? That pretty much the same as alkalinity right? What are your numbers for that?
 
So, assuming you guys are legit, how would you "build" your water from scratch starting with 0 in all values? Please answer for pale, mid-amber and dark for an appropriate range. Thanks!

Without addressing the question of my legitimacy, I'll point out that the Primer in the stickies is intended to get people starting out on the way to good beer. If you want to go the next step beyond that Martin has a whole library of valid profiles in Bru'n Water.

And bicarbonate? That pretty much the same as alkalinity right? What are your numbers for that?

Alkalinity measures the aspect of bicarbonate and carbonate with which you are concerned as a brewer. You really don't care how much bicarbonate you have. You care about what it does to you and that is measured by the alkalinity. You can estimate bicarbonate if you want by dividing the alkalinity by 50 and multiplying the result by 61 (or, more importantly, estimate alkalinity if you only have a bicarbonate number by doing this in reverse). The interconversions depend on pH and this approximation is only good when the pH is between, say, 6 and 8.
 
So, assuming you guys are legit, how would you "build" your water from scratch starting with 0 in all values? Please answer for pale, mid-amber and dark for an appropriate range. Thanks!

Is Palmer at NHC this year? I just got here and haven't seen him. but if he's here, I'll run up to him this week and ask him personally if AJ and Martin are "legit".

Otherwise, I will ask Martin if I can take his picture during his seminar at the National Homebrewers Conference, as he is presenting a talk on water chemistry and brewing.
 
excellent responses aj, i've been feeling around in the dark as far as water is concerned. i am pretty lucky to have very good tap water but i like knowing the science of why it's good.
 
Nothing personal on the legit thing. I post and reply mostly from my phone so I really don't see anything other than nicknames. I don't know your credentials, experience, or legal status! ;-) I've seen some posts on here with some pretty sketchy advice so forgive me if I like to verify things before I start changing my brewing habits.
 
Is Palmer at NHC this year? I just got here and haven't seen him. but if he's here, I'll run up to him this week and ask him personally if AJ and Martin are "legit".

Otherwise, I will ask Martin if I can take his picture during his seminar at the National Homebrewers Conference, as he is presenting a talk on water chemistry and brewing.

John said he would be there around noon on Wednesday and he is going to the BN thing that night. I'll be there on Wed afternoon.
 
I really appreciate all of the insight in this thread with regard to water chemistry. It's the one part of brewing that still is quite confusing for me and one that I'd like to get a better handle on.
 
I just had a beer with John Palmer. He said that his book is about ready, and he really had tons of help from mabrungard and ajdelange, and he said, "This is a good book". His exact words were something like, "I couldn't have done it without AJ and Martin.".

So, I'd say that they are "legit".
 
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