Does any of it really matter?

I am new to the forum, and new to brewing. My first batch is only 3 days into fermenting. I have been doing a lot of reading in this form, in brewing books, and talking with brew store owners as well as a couple friends who brew. Everyone seems to know the best technique, everyone's beer is better than everyone else's beer, there are volumes of tips and tricks to get better tasting beer and lots of them contradict each other. All of this hit home and I had a revelation that I'd like your more experienced opinions on.

I make my own soap too, bath and laundry, because i don't like all the chemicals and detergents in store bought stuff and in the winter, my skin cracks and bleeds with those same store bought products. People swear by using expensive exotic oils in their soaps, but i found that I can make a better soap with oils from a grocery store. Castor oil does a better job than jojoba, shea butter, etc. The basic, unexciting ingredients in my soap, match or beat all the expensive stuff used by other soapers, but i get shouted down every time I mention it.

From what I gather from all my reading and discussing is that all the debate on yeast types, fermenting temperatures, grain types, equipment gadgets, techniques and methodologies don't really amount to much improvement over just-add-water-and-yeast extract kits. Other than for the fun of it, why do people go thru all the work, trouble and expense for their beer, if its all pretty much the same anyway? Is it pretty much the same? and be fair

In all fairness, it is not the same. I think yeast has the biggest impact second only to degree of grain roast.

As far as difference in grain varietals Begian 2 row isn;t much different than British, America, or German 2 row. The difference is subletly insiginifigant. IMO.

Yeast and ferm temp. Not so much.

Not sure I get the point of your rant. If that’s the way you feel, which you’re more than entitled to, why did you enter into a hobby where the end result is “all the same”?

I’m not going to argue that there are no contradictions in all the techniques but most of us have found the sometimes subtle differences in brewing techniques that produce a better end result. If you feel that it doesn’t matter what you do to produce the same result you are already approaching the hobby with a flawed perspective.

You're TheCookieMonster, aren't you?

canuckmug said:

Everyone seems to know the best technique, everyone's beer is better than everyone else's beer . . .

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I don't know what forum you've been reading, friend. My impression of HBT is very different - people almost never do what you're accusing them of. In fact, if you read through this forum, you'll see lots of posts, mine included, that tell people to Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew.

People come here to learn about brewing, share experiences about brewing, and hear about other people's experiences. So yeah, we talk about brewing techniques, what works for us and what didn't, etc. But there's seldom/never a condescending attitude here, in my experience.

And if you buy a good extract kit and follow the directions, you'll likely make reasonably good beer. In fact, I'd recommend that as a great way to start. Good luck!

The better your palate gets, the more you appreciate differences in ingredients, techniques, etc.

Equipment - no difference in final product unless it affects temperature at an important phase of the process. There may be exceptions somebody will chime in with, but I doubt they'll be hugely important.

Yeast, hops, grain - choice very much affects flavor, aroma, mouthfeel, quality in general.

Recipe formulation - the real difference maker. Good ingredients with bad recipe = so-so beer at best.

As for the kits, there is nothing wrong with them. If you like the beer, you like the beer. Most of us like to "chef" our recipes. I can throw a frozen dinner in the microwave with the best of them, and I do like me some salisbury steak with no effort, but it isn't like a home cooked meal from scratch.

Some things are universal. Fresh quality ingredients, sanitary practices and fermentation temp. Beyond that what technique you use can vary greatly and still produce quality beer.

I think you have good points on either side of the argument. In the end, alot of things really just don't matter. You could do a whole slew of things wrong and you'd end up with an alcoholic beverage that'll get you drunk. What you're missing is that people do this as a hobby and they strive for perfection.

In your soap metaphor... as long as the soap cleans your body and doesn't make you bleed, you're good to go. With beer, it seems like for you, as long as it gets you drunk and tastes decent, you're good to go. People who make beer strive for much more than just an alcoholic beverage that tastes decent. If that were the case, I think they'd be buying bottom shelf discount liquor at 10 bucks per half gallon and mixing it with copious amounts of coke.

The point is that everything a brewer can do to to make their beer more perfect, they will do. Everything a brewer can do to gain that perfect balance banana/clove aroma and taste in a Weizen... they will do. If that requires 21.4 days in a primary at exactly 67.34°F, there are people who will do it. Everything a brewer can do to make their beer that much clearer... they will do. If that requires 41.2 days of cold crashing at 38.43°F after 36.47 days in a secondary after using whirlfloc in the boil and gelatin in the carboy, there are people who will do it. Everything a brewer can do to cut their 8 hour brew time another minute... they will do. If that requires building a $1000 cooling system, or spending 5 nights bending copper piping, there are people who will do it.

THAT is where all the different techniques, tips, contradictory methodologies and philosphies come from. If all you care about is getting a beverage that tastes like beer, then by all means, ignore any advice or suggestions you get from your friends, LHBS, forums and books. I'm almost positive you'd produce a beer that's pretty good. But you could also do what my friend did while stationed in Iraq.... put some old fruit, spit, and toilet water into the biggest container you can find and hide it in the closet for a few months.

In the end, you're right... it doesn't take much to make a decent beer. But to acquire perfection is a-whole-nother story. On top of that, again... this is a hobby... people do it to occupy time. They do it because it interests them. Because it fascinates them. It is constantly on their minds and if they aren't thinking about it or doing something with it all the time... well, then it wouldn't be much of a hobby now, would it?

Cool, we all get to win best of show then.

All the trouble and expense people go through is because this is a hobby(for most people on here). Much like gardeners know it would be easier to go to the store and buy produce rather than grow it, they still take the time to plant, water, weed, fertilize and harvest a garden. The throw yeast into a barrel and forget will probably get you 75% of the way their but you still have plenty of rooms to improve it.

Plus most people don't home brew to save money or time, they do so to make something. It will 9 times out of 10 be faster and cheaper to go to the local beer store and pick up a case. The process and ingredients you select allow you to craft your own product. Whether terrible or delicious it still is something you created. Just like techniques for gardening or any other craft, everyone has their own tips and tricks for the "best" way to do it. If you go into a hobby to do something as fast and painless as possible well then its more like a job than hobby.

Bobby_M said:

Cool, we all get to win best of show then.

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When do I get my ribbon?

BendBrewer said:

When do I get my ribbon?

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Forget that, I want the free sight glass from the sponsor!

I liken brewing to making spaghetti all the time.

You can buy a can of Hunt's sauce and pour it over spaghetti noodles. It's spaghetti, and probably better than frozen dinners.

You can buy some Prego, and pour it over spaghetti noodes. It's better than canned.

You can buy canned tomato sauce and canned tomato paste and add some dried seasoning. It'll be more "homemade" for sure, and possibly family restaurant quality.

You can buy fresh ingredients, like fresh tomatoes, and fresh seasonings, and make spaghetti. With the right touch, you can rival an Italian restaurant's spaghetti, or at least get close.

You can grow your own tomatoes, and grow your own seasonings, and really go out there to make the best tomato sauce you can and even can your own sauce. It'll be better than any restaurant's sauce!


Well, brewing has similar levels. You can buy a Cooper's kit and mix it up and have "beer". You can buy an extract kit, with steeping grains and have a very good beer. You can buy a partial mash kit, look into your water chemistry, and control fermentation temperatures and have a beer that will rival a craft brewery's products. You can go all grain, pitch the correct amount of yeast, control fermentation temperatures, watch your water chemistry, and formulate a great recipe, and make beer that is better than most craft brewery's offerings. You could even combine some techniques to improve "canned beer".

So, in short, no. It's not all the same, not by a long shot. However, just like with making dinner some of us take shortcuts- knowing that it's still better than what you can buy in some instances.

Thank you BrewBrain, Quan and Yooper, that was very insightful. I hadn't considered it from a perfectionist point of view. I'm a perfectionist so i will probably be there someday. To some of the others, forgive me if my tone sounded condemning. I know almost nothing about brewing anything which is why I came here for some instruction and perspective. To those of you so spend ever moment of free time and every penny you have in pursuit of the perfect beer.. well thats great and i hope that I can someday be graced with a sip of your brew. I started making beer because where i live in canada, beer costs at least twice what it does in the states and I got tired of throwing money away on a product i could probably learn to produce at a better quality than I can buy from some small town liquor store, at a quarter of the cost. SO thanks again, and yes i will, relax, I won't worry, and pretty soon I'll have a homebrew.

It's great that you have an opinion before every trying it. Maybe, you should have an open mind - and instead of denying everyone's advice that temps, yeast, and ingredients are not worth the extra effort... maybe try it out on your own and determine your own conclusion. Everyone has different expectations. Maybe to you it's not worth the effort but to others it is. How do you have an opinion before you've done it?

From your post, I infer that you don't think all this "extra" stuff matters, I'm a newb as well, as from what I read, all that extra stuff makes all the difference in the world. So I can't answer your question if it matters or not, because I have limited experience, but I find it interesting we have such different perceptions.

I like the way Yooper described quality, and he's right.

As far as the reason why people make beer...I have my own reason. For the same reason I know my neighbor really doesn't need to open his hood and work on his brand new car, and for the same reason my other neighbor pines over every detail on this shrub next to his garage trying to make it as round as humanly possible. Even if it goes completely unnoticed, it's the soul of it that matters. It matters to me. ...it's also fun

You mentioned that people have different methods...who's right, etc. One of the best quotes I've read on this forum and for the life of me I can't remember who said it first but "beer is forgiving". This is true. Perfect your own style in your own time. Everything to that point is just a ride.

Teromous said:

I like the way Yooper described quality, and he's right.

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For heaven's sake, quit calling me a HE!

Haha...yeah it's the old guy in the picture, sorry I forgot yours was the one with the dominatrix in the profile

That's not an old guy!!! That's Red Green, Canada's greatest cultural export!

OP: Best way to answer your own question? Start brewing and gain real experience. Then you'll know what matters and what doesn't.

Pappers said:

That's not an old guy!!! That's Red Green, Canada's greatest cultural export!

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Oh man I can't believe I didn't recognize that. There was him and that guy that walked around with the keyboard around his neck, and they had that moose lodge order. Now I see the duct tape reference under there...

Teromous said:

Oh man I can't believe I didn't recognize that. There was him and that guy that walked around with the keyboard around his neck, and they had that moose lodge order. Now I see the duct tape reference under there...

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YES! Red Green and his nephew, Harold!

I'm in the middle of several home and cottage renovation projects, including bathrooms, tile, decor, concrete, etc. I still only have three things in my tool box- WD 40, duct tape, and a hammer.

On Wednesday of this week, I am ripping out our downstairs bathroom. And of course, a new tub will require a new surround. A new surround requires new walls. That might require new plumbing. Since I'm doing the plumbing, might as well replace the toilet. Since I'm doing all that, I might as well rip out the floor. So, I might need a new roll of duct tape.

I seriously AM the female Red Green. But my beard has far less gray!

Now, onto your previously scheduled thread...............................

Clonefarmer said:

Some things are universal. Fresh quality ingredients, sanitary practices and fermentation temp. Beyond that what technique you use can vary greatly and still produce quality beer.

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Couldn't agree more, well said.

canuckmug said:

From what I gather from all my reading and discussing is that all the debate on yeast types, fermenting temperatures, grain types, equipment gadgets, techniques and methodologies don't really amount to much improvement over just-add-water-and-yeast extract kits.

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Really? IMHO you need to find an experienced brewer in your neighborhood so you can test yours vs. hers (that's for you Yoop) when yours has come to fruition. Then you can come back to us to maybe revise that statement.

canuckmug said:

Thank you BrewBrain, Quan and Yooper, that was very insightful. I hadn't considered it from a perfectionist point of view. I'm a perfectionist so i will probably be there someday. To some of the others, forgive me if my tone sounded condemning. I know almost nothing about brewing anything which is why I came here for some instruction and perspective. To those of you so spend ever moment of free time and every penny you have in pursuit of the perfect beer.. well thats great and i hope that I can someday be graced with a sip of your brew. I started making beer because where i live in canada, beer costs at least twice what it does in the states and I got tired of throwing money away on a product i could probably learn to produce at a better quality than I can buy from some small town liquor store, at a quarter of the cost. SO thanks again, and yes i will, relax, I won't worry, and pretty soon I'll have a homebrew.

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I'm willing to bet this guy has brewed a few beers with crappy ingredients, crappy equipment and a crappy process. He wants to brew as cheaply as possible and doesn't want to accept that his ingredients/equipment/process is the problem, he wants to assume that all homebrewers make beer as crappy as his turned out.

I can tell you from personal experience that great beer can be made at home. I joined this site in November of 2008 when I got a Mr. Beer kit. I brewed a few really, really bad batches with that and realized that my ingredients/equipment/process were the problem. I took a step back and read "How to Brew" by John Palmer. I lurked here for months trying to absorb every bit of information I could. When I did finally buy decent equipment, I actually made a pretty good beer. My second beer was even better... and so on a so forth. Now I'm going partial mash, which I'm sure will only improve my beer even more. Eventually I will go AG and have complete and total control over every aspect of my beer.

The point is, great beer can be made at home, you just have to be willing to put the time, money and effort into it. If you're brewing simply to save money (as you stated) then you aren't into the hobby for the right reasons.

You're right! It's fun! Other than that, you really have to find your own methodology and reasoning for what you're doing. Whether it be making your own soaps or brewing your own beer. For me, it's that it's my OWN. That's what motivates me to pursue it. Actually, it doesn't matter what IT is either. It's my rendition of something that has been done a thousand times.

For a couple of years, I did the "just-add-water-and-yeast" thing, and although it was fun at one time, I lost interest. So, I switched to AG. I have a lot more 'failures' then successes now but, they're MINE. It may be YEARS off but, I won't be 'fulfilled' with this hobby until the only thing that isn't supplied solely by me is the water.

YooperBrew said:

For heaven's sake, quit calling me a HE!

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Beer burns the nose, I don't like it when members make me do that. I'll get a new keyboard tomorrow. Damn you Yooper!!!!

Hmmm...is the OP CookieMonster reincarnated?

I like it. Seems brewing is more of an art form pursued with passion. Therefore there really are no rules other than the basic ones like cleanliness. I like brewing even more and i haven't tasted anything yet. But because i am so new to it, just the basics have me stressed out. But i hope to relax like you guys and gals some day once i get better and more knowledgeable, and not see brewing as a financial investment i need a good return on, but a fun hobby where one can express one's creativity.

YooperBrew said:

I liken brewing to making spaghetti all the time.

You can grow your own tomatoes, and grow your own seasonings, and really go out there to make the best tomato sauce you can and even can your own sauce.

You can buy a Cooper's kit and mix it up and have "beer".

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What if you added your homemade tomato sauce to your Cooper's kit? Spaghebeer?

canuckmug said:

I like it. Seems brewing is more of an art form pursued with passion. Therefore there really are no rules other than the basic ones like cleanliness. I like brewing even more and i haven't tasted anything yet. But because i am so new to it, just the basics have me stressed out. But i hope to relax like you guys and gals some day once i get better and more knowledgeable, and not see brewing as a financial investment i need a good return on, but a fun hobby where one can express one's creativity.

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Hey, it doesn't seem like it is bothering you, but if it is, don't let any of these guys get you down. Your question was earnest and you just inferred a bit of assumption that pressed some people's buttons. You now have some light shed on the subject and soon after you drink your first brew, you will start to understand all the little different techniques that matter.

OR... you will drink it, get a nice buzz, and continue to make it the same way. People say "if you're in it to make cheap beer, you're in the wrong hobby," well, who is to say that your reasons for doing something with your own time is right or wrong?

My bet is for the former, and you will soon be sucked into this HABIT (not hobby ) and your wallet will start getting lighter very soon. Just a heads up.

Quan said:

People say "if you're in it to make cheap beer, you're in the wrong hobby," well, who is to say that your reasons for doing something with your own time is right or wrong?

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You're absolutely right. You should brew for whatever reason you want, but to me just doing it to make cheap beer doesn't seem right. Brewing is an art form and should be something you experiment and get creative with.

Of course, I'm sure there are those people out there that find one recipe they like and repeatedly brew that beer over and over until the end of time. If that is what makes them happy, then more power to them. It would bore me to tears though.

Brewing is a lot like backing a cake.

You can buy them pre-made at the store. And some very good ones at the right stores or bakery.

You can make your own from a cake mix.

Or you can make your own from scratch.

but there are some many different recipes and techniques. A lot of people do it different ways.

THWAP!

That was the sound of my hand hitting my face.

I should delete this post as it adds nothing to the forum. I won't though, because the OP adds nothing to it either.

THWAP!

If I were making soap, I would make it the way I want it. THWAP! I would take the best advice I could glean from experienced soap makers who make soap the way THEY want it, and adjust their methods to suit my own methods and preferences.

THWAP! This thread is hurting my face.

YooperBrew said:

For heaven's sake, quit calling me a HE!

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OK, who pissed him off?

I do it for the fun and to be creative, that is about it.

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

OK, who pissed him off?

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If you didn't make me laugh so hard, I'd kick you right in the butt with my roll of duct tape.

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

OK, who pissed him off?

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HAHA

I damn near spit my coffee all over my computer screen upon reading that. Hrm... maybe I should get back to work.

OP - some people equate "never had a problem" with "making the best beer I possibly can". And as mentioned above regarding WHY one makes beer, that's fine for them.

There is a law of diminishing returns at some point. Where you go through a TON of extra effort just to improve the beer 1%. Some people like doing that and again, that's cool. Some people like to spend as much time building brew equipment as they do brewing. Works for them, who is to criticise? This is all for personal enjoyment and whatever gets you there is good imo.

Also, there is less to screw up when using all-extract. Some people like that.

Oh, and Prego is teh suck (waayyyyy too sweet). Ragu is much better (savory, like sghetti sauce is s'pose to be. Ya know, 'cause that's how my mom made it).

I can tell you that I have avoided associating with local homebrewers partly because I don't want to be told what to do. If I have a failure, I want it to be mine. I like the online community because nobody's in my face telling me what to do. The upshot is that I'm working toward beer that is mine and that satisfies me. I'm grateful for the tips I've received, but that doesn't mean that I'm a disciple of any other brewer. I guess it comes down to a quest for originality, an activity where I can take what is offered and process it to produce something that is uniquely my own.