Dispensing a full keg at once, can I use air instead of co2?

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christiana
I'd like to get a keg setup some day (just to force-carb, I'd like to then bottle it), but that costs money and I really can't justify spending what it requires to get a good keg system.

So my cheap plan is to carb the beer using priming sugar in the keg to get the whole batch done at once. Then I'd dispense the full keg into bottles all at once, in about a 30 minute window. Corny kegs arent bad, but the co2 setup for dispensing can get costly. Would it be ok to use air to dispense the keg into bottles? It wouldn't be in contact with air for long, and I already have a good compressor/regulator setup in my shop, so I can easily get 3-4psi to the keg.

I'd like to do this rather than carb in-bottle because I give away more beer than I drink at home and I like things to look as professional as possible. If I can do away with the yeast sediment in the bottles I'd be thrilled.
 
. Would it be ok to use air to dispense the keg into bottles? It wouldn't be in contact with air for long, and I already have a good compressor/regulator setup in my shop, so I can easily get 3-4psi to the keg.

In short, no.

The air you'd use to push the beer won't just go away, it'll go in the bottle as well, oxidizing it and ruining it.
 
You can get what you need to force carb for around $125. It'll last a long time and you can use it if you ever get a kegerator. I know it's not cheap, but it makes everything much easier.
 
After getting a keg, $125 is way out of my budget. Its tough being picking and poor at the same time :D

In short, no.

The air you'd use to push the beer won't just go away, it'll go in the bottle as well, oxidizing it and ruining it.
Regardless of what you use to push the beer out, the bottles are going to be full of air to begin with. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you are getting at. I know its not ideal to have it in contact with the liquid in the keg, but once it is outside the keg it should be business as usual, no?
 
Forcing carbing (properly) takes just as long as bottle conditioning. In my opinion, your plan just complicates things and involves cleaning more equipment.
 
After getting a keg, $125 is way out of my budget. Its tough being picking and poor at the same time :D


Regardless of what you use to push the beer out, the bottles are going to be full of air to begin with. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you are getting at. I know its not ideal to have it in contact with the liquid in the keg, but once it is outside the keg it should be business as usual, no?

No, because you use co2 to push the beer out of the keg, and the o2 was never in touch with the beer. Once you pump the beer out with a hand pump, you oxidize the heck out of it and it's not even drinkable a few days later. If the beer ever was pumped, and not dispensed with co2, it's probably already ruined. Bottling it after that, along with more air to go into the bottle (instead of c02) would only compound the problem.

When you bottle, the bottles are not "full of air" to begin with. I mean, yes, they are before filling, but you fill the bottle from the bottom, displacing the air. By using co2 to push the beer to the bottle, the c02 itself displaces the oxygen, meaning that you'd be capping on co2 and not "air". I hope that makes sense.
 
No, because you use co2 to push the beer out of the keg, and the o2 was never in touch with the beer. Once you pump the beer out with a hand pump, you oxidize the heck out of it and it's not even drinkable a few days later. If the beer ever was pumped, and not dispensed with co2, it's probably already ruined. Bottling it after that, along with more air to go into the bottle (instead of c02) would only compound the problem.

When you bottle, the bottles are not "full of air" to begin with. I mean, yes, they are before filling, but you fill the bottle from the bottom, displacing the air. By using co2 to push the beer to the bottle, the c02 itself displaces the oxygen, meaning that you'd be capping on co2 and not "air". I hope that makes sense.

Ok, I'm trying to understand your 2nd paragraph. If the beer is carbonated, the gas used to pressurize the keg will never make it to the bottle; its just being used to displace the liquid in the keg. You are never pushing any form of gas into the bottle. The co2 bubbling out of the brew would displace the o2 in the bottle, but that would happen regardless of the gas used to force the liquid out of the keg.
I'm not sure how you are getting co2 gas directly from the keg into the bottle. It would have to first go into solution in the liquid, then boil out while bottling. Which wouldn't be able to happen at 3-5psi (according to science, something that tends to be completely ignored when talking about brewing), unless the temperature was well below -100ºC.

I estimate that I can empty a keg while bottling in about 30 minutes. For bottle-conditioning the beer would it in a bottling bucket for roughly the same amount of time, exposed to the same gas (at 0psi, but o2 and nitrogen are still super stable at 3psi).

I guess what I'm looking for is someone who has experience or scientific knowledge in regards to liquid dynamics.

Forcing carbing (properly) takes just as long as bottle conditioning. In my opinion, your plan just complicates things and involves cleaning more equipment.
I'm not concerned about how long it takes to carb, I just want to do it in a way that keeps sediment out of the bottles and in a way I can afford. I want to carbonate with sugar in the keg, which isnt uncommon. What I'm working on is trying to get the beer out of said keg without spending more money that I have available.

I feel like I'm not describing things well or maybe I'm just missing something.
 
If you decide to try out the air method I would recommend a quality air filter between the tank and filler line. The same thing you would use for spray painting.
 
I estimate that I can empty a keg while bottling in about 30 minutes

Look up the "We dont need no stinking beer gun" method. When bottling a carb'd beer, you MUST go VEEEEEERRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYY slowly or it will foam all over the place. 30 minutes to bottle 5 gallons of beer is a very low estimate when you don't take into consideration the fact that the beer is carb'd.

keeps sediment out of the bottles and in a way I can afford.

In order to prime a beer, the amount of yeast needed is very small. If this is the real motivation behind your idea, I would suggest a secondary and a short cold crash for each batch of beer you brew. The O2 thing just isn't going to work well.
 
If you decide to try out the air method I would recommend a quality air filter between the tank and filler line. The same thing you would use for spray painting.

This. Petroleum products are just as bad as oxygen for beer.
 
I guess what I'm looking for is someone who has experience or scientific knowledge in regards to liquid dynamics.

...

I feel like I'm not describing things well or maybe I'm just missing something.

This really has nothing to do with fluid dynamics...

Anyway, I think you're describing it fine, and your logic is sound. The chemical engineer in me says that you'll introduce some oxygen into the beer, but it won't be a lot. Regardless, there are a couple things that make this very different from traditional bottling: Instead of having 0 psig of air over the beer (bottling bucket), you'll have a small positive pressure. So you'll be forcing more O2 into the beer than you normally would, though as you point out it will be a small amount given the limited time you'll have the pressure on there. There is generally a bit of O2 present when you bottle in the traditional sense, but if you're bottle conditioning with active yeast the yeast would eat up the O2 and this wouldn't be an issue. Finally, the beer is already carbonated; as others mentioned, properly bottling from a carbonated keg takes preparation, a bit of practice and a bunch of time. This isn't as straight forward as using a bottling wand. Not to mention, it's often hard to perfectly nail natural carbing in the keg (though some commercial breweries like Allagash do it no problem) so it'll be tricky to dial in an exact volume of CO2 without a lot of trial and error. Especially considering you'll be losing some as you bottle.

My take on it: you can certainly do it, but chances are you'll lose some carbonation and the risk for oxidation goes up a bit. And it really doesn't sound worth it to me, why go to the trouble to make your own beer if you can't store it properly? Either cough up the money for a CO2 setup (watch craigslist and you might luck out) or stick with traditional bottle conditioning. You can switch to a higher flocculating yeast if you want, some of the British strains (S-04, Nottingham) will generally drop out so hard in the fridge that there's no noticeable sediment when you pour everything into a glass.
 
In a broad sense fluid dynamics is appropriate. The motion of liquid and gas, displacement, and phase change between the two, etc. :p

Anyway, its nice to hear from someone else who has actually put some thought into it.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say I don't have the means to store my beer properly? I have been making beer and wine for a while with great success (the only thing that went bad was a batch of peach wine, which was due strictly to my own stupidity, but thats another story). I have plenty of fridge space; a large, cool, dark space for fermenting/aging; a handful of equipment; etc. The only thing I don't have is a co2 setup for displacing the liquid in a keg.

I'll probably try it once, just for kicks. I'll do it for a batch of cider, or maybe a sparkling fruit wine seeing as they cost me almost nothing to make (I have a small orchard, so i have tons of fruit with which to make wine). At this point I just have to try it and find out. I don't mind the risk of ruining a batch as long as I learn something. I hate to see people get all fussy about a little o2 near the brew when during a normal bottle day the beer comes in contact with tons of co2 as well.
 
I'm not sure what you mean when you say I don't have the means to store my beer properly? I have been making beer and wine for a while with great success (the only thing that went bad was a batch of peach wine, which was due strictly to my own stupidity, but thats another story). I have plenty of fridge space; a large, cool, dark space for fermenting/aging; a handful of equipment; etc. The only thing I don't have is a co2 setup for displacing the liquid in a keg.

I didn't mean anything like that, sorry for the confusion. By "not store it properly" I was referring to your proposed method of bottling; potentially losing some of your carbonation and possibly introducing additional O2 are both things that will negatively affect your beer's shelf life. I really think the O2 risk is minimal, but I try to minimize risks wherever it's convenient.

The fluid dynamics could be argued either way :p
 
How about a portable CO2 charger?

co2 charger.jpg
 
Anyway, its nice to hear from someone else who has actually put some thought into it.

Yeah, I don't put thought into anything. I just make up random **** for the fun of it.

I will just say this- there is a reason that beer is pushed with C02, or nitrogen. Oxidized beer WILL happen when the beer is pushed with air. Believe it, or not.
 
Here:

http://stores.kegconnection.com/Detail.bok?no=274

Paintball CO2 setup for $85. I know you said the $125 was way out of budget, but this is at least $40 cheaper. I'm sure you could dispense a good few kegs with each refill, which are usually around $3.50.

Skip brewing a batch and get drip coffee instead of lattes and you'll have $85 in no time :)

Kosch
 
I think it would be easier to see how CO2 is used to purge the oxygen out of the bottle in the process of draft bottling! I'm not advocating that the original poster go and buy this system because it is expensive and there would also be a need for a distribution system anyway. While the video doesn't explain why the bottles need to be purged with CO2 I think Yooper has already done that for us.

Just my .02. Although I would hate to see some delightful homebrew oxidized.
 
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What is the issue with bottling the traditional way and waiting 2 weeks? I naturally carb in the keg and as far as I know it takes about the same time. Am I wrong?
 
Although there is much science to brewing you're over thinking it guy, and frankly, taking the fun out of home brewing.

I agree that clear beer looks good, I mean who doesn't want a clear brew? But the small amount of sediment should be a badge of honor of your hard work.

Just secondary the batch, use gelatin, cold crash it, and naturally condition in bottles. Don't use air, agreed, there is a reason why the world uses Co2 for dispensing.
 
Yeah, I don't put thought into anything. I just make up random **** for the fun of it.

I will just say this- there is a reason that beer is pushed with C02, or nitrogen. Oxidized beer WILL happen when the beer is pushed with air. Believe it, or not.

No need to get pissy. Anyone can tell from the quality of the post that he had actually taken time to respond rather than just spout off a bunch of stuff that doesn't even make sense.

Have a beer and relax.


Rmike:
I'm not concerned about the time at all. I'm very patient when it comes to brewing. I'm just trying to avoid sediment in the bottle without spending more money than I have (which I have found gets several people very upset with me :p).

Joe:
I'm the kind of guy who over-thinks everything. Mainly because I often don't have the funds to do things the correct way, so I try to over-engineer a hacked up way to make things works anyway.

Kosch:
I haven't used a drip coffee brewer in years. I'm a french press guy.


I asked, I learned, and I'm happy. I'm going to start setting aside part of my homebrew budget for a decent setup, but with christmas barreling toward us like a bat out of hell I'm sure that fund will take a hit.
 
In order to bottle from the keg without losing most of the carbonation and making a mess, everything needs to be kept as cold as possible. By lowering the temperature and applying pressure, the solubility of O2 in the beer goes way up. How much will this oxidize the beer? I don't really know, but certainly enough to significantly reduce it's shelf life, and possibly worse. I wouldn't risk oxidizing my beer just to reduce sediment in the bottle, but that's just me.

Shelly_belly's suggestion seems like a good one to me. Those only cost ~$20, and cartridges are ~$2 each. You'd want an extra long line if you go that route though, since the cartridges will provide a little more pressure than is ideal for bottling.
 
Yooper, has this Nonsmokingbandit fella fried you yet?
Condescending!!!!
Bandit, Yoopers not been trying to lead you astray. And you'll find, if you hang around, Yooper helps a lot of people on here. And, as far as "prissy"? Well... you may find something put about that as well! Hah
 
No need to get pissy. Anyone can tell from the quality of the post that he had actually taken time to respond rather than just spout off a bunch of stuff that doesn't even make sense.

Have a beer and relax.

It doesnt make sense that you SHOULDN'T oxygenate your beer? The answer to your question is simple, and it is this: Your idea is a bad one. Your beer MAY not suffer A LOT from this, but it WILL suffer. Oxygenation WILL happen. You are just asking for trouble, and for what?

I'm just trying to avoid sediment in the bottle without spending more money

If you have enough yeast in the bottom of your bottles that is is bothering you, you are either sticking your racking cane RIGHT INTO the yeast, or you are super anal retentive.

No one is trying to lead you astray here by giving you bad information. Even if we can't give you details of "liquid dynamics", it doesn't mean that we don't know that OXYGEN WILL OXYGENATE BEER!

TL;DR? Your idea is a bad one.
 
There's a product called Sed-Ex sediment catchers that might be what you need. You'll need to switch to screw top bottles and make returning the empties and caps a condition of your generosity when giving your friends the brews.

I haven't used them as the sediment doesn't bother me but YouTube says they work and YouTube doesn't lie.

They're certainly less complex and don't risk adding unwanted O2.
 
Does carbonating in a keg and then bottling prevent the little bit of yeast sediment that you get when bottle conditioning? I figured either way you'd need to run it through some kind of filter to get everything out.

Seems like a lot of extra work and expense to ultimately end up with bottled beer that will still probably have some sediment in it.
 
Does carbonating in a keg and then bottling prevent the little bit of yeast sediment that you get when bottle conditioning? I figured either way you'd need to run it through some kind of filter to get everything out.

Seems like a lot of extra work and expense to ultimately end up with bottled beer that will still probably have some sediment in it.

Yeah you don't get the itty bitty yeast cake on the bottom of the bottle that occurs during bottle conditioning.
However if you made a cloudy wheat beer, or a fruit beer (depending on the fruit) there will still be some small amount of solids that settle out to the bottom.
 
No need to get pissy. Anyone can tell from the quality of the post that he had actually taken time to respond rather than just spout off a bunch of stuff that doesn't even make sense.

Sorry. Those who ask a question and don't like the answer, so dismiss that answer with an insult make me pissy.
 
Does carbonating in a keg and then bottling prevent the little bit of yeast sediment that you get when bottle conditioning? I figured either way you'd need to run it through some kind of filter to get everything out.

Seems like a lot of extra work and expense to ultimately end up with bottled beer that will still probably have some sediment in it.

Actually, if you keg and condition in the keg, and then keep the keg cold and don't move it, you can dispense sediment free beer. Or at least, nearly sediment free, as there may be a very slight dusting of sediment in the bottom of the bottle. But when I've bottled from the keg, the bottles remain sediment-free and almost seem filtered. Of course, this means bottling only clear beer to begin with.

Normally, once you cold crash the keg it will get very clear. The first 3-4 ounces dispensed will have some sediment, but later pours will have none. If you bottle at that point with a beer gun (or the poorman's beergun, the BMBF: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/we-no-need-no-stinking-beer-gun-24678/) you can have a clear bottled beer with little-to-no sediment. They will stay perfectly carbonated, and will not have oxidation or any issues at all. You CAN filter, of course, before bottling but I've never found it necessary. I've bottled award-winning bottles with the Biermuncher Bottle Filler, with almost no additional cost!
 
Don't do it, man! Penny wise, pound foolish. Compressed air is for tires.
 
I tried this a couple of times. I can't really speculate on the chemistry involved, but the results were not good. The beer was unpleasantly oxidized by two weeks and nearly undrinkable by four. I went back to bottle conditioning until I got around to buying a CO2 tank.

I still bottle all of my beers pre-carbonated from a corny, but for some reason the compressor really did bad things. I don't know why the CO2 tank makes such a difference, but in my experience it did. YMMV, of course.
 
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