Wyeast 3711 French Saison

This is a beast of an attenuator. I actually have a question about that, for those who might be better able to answer it than I. I plan on using this yeast for a Yeti clone (Belgian Imperial Stout), and don't want it to dry out too much. The recipe is 60% base, 10% Munich, 6% Dark candi sugar, 6% flaked barley, and the rest various black, chocolate, and roasted grains. I'm thinking I'll want to ferment at 154, maybe even 156 to keep this from over-attenuating. Does that sound good?

gr8shandini said:

I didn't think it was possible to go below 1.000 with a beer. Am I mistaken?

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It sure is. Alcohol is less dense than water, so sufficient concentrations in beer, mead etc commonly bring the OG below 0.000 (which is why hydrometers reads that low in the first place).

tennesseean_87 said:

I'm thinking I'll want to ferment at 154, maybe even 156 to keep this from over-attenuating. Does that sound good?

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I think fermenting at 154 will kill the yeast, no?

Sorry to be the jerk who did that!

I don't think a mash temperature of 156 is going to slow down this yeast very much. People are using it to dry out all sorts of big sticky beers. I've never used it combined with a high mash temperature myself, so no experience here on that angle. If it were my Yetti clone I'd use a different Belgian yeast to start and pitch this one only if I had attenuation issues. Good luck!

It's a burner too. I'm at 3.5 weeks in the primary and just in the last 4 days it's gone from 1.008 to 1.004 and still bubbling away. Don't think I'll be bottling at 4 weeks as planned. OG was 1.070 with a 153 mash for 60. 94% attenuation!

I warned you all. This yeast is unstoppable. You can not stop it! You can't even slow it down! You can only hope to contain it! Keep your children away from it or it'll get a hold of them and nothing will be left of them except alcohol, CO2 and an empty pair of Garanimals! I HAVE WARNED YOU!!!!!

gr8shandini said:

It's not unusual for my beers to over-attenuate slightly and FGs in the 1.004 range are not uncommon for a few styles, but I didn't think it was possible to go below 1.000 with a beer. Am I mistaken?

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If it's a consistent thing and your hydrometer checks out, maybe worth checking your thermometer?

Last time I used this, my beer attenuated down below 1.000. Right now I have a 2gal batch split between 2 fermenters going, both with 3711. In both of them, you can literally _see_ the trub moving around - looks kinda like a lava lamp. I think part of that might be the co2 from the blowoff bouncing back after it bubbles, but it is crazy to watch. Great reminder that this **** is alive.

bigbeergeek said:

I think fermenting at 154 will kill the yeast, no?

Sorry to be the jerk who did that!

I don't think a mash temperature of 156 is going to slow down this yeast very much. People are using it to dry out all sorts of big sticky beers. I've never used it combined with a high mash temperature myself, so no experience here on that angle. If it were my Yetti clone I'd use a different Belgian yeast to start and pitch this one only if I had attenuation issues. Good luck!

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I appreciate your jerkiness! I was thinking of mashing high. Maybe 1156-158, then. Maybe I'll try a slightly shorter mash, also. 3711 is the only Belgian yeast I have around, and a few people have said it worked well in their yeti clones.

I made a stout (not a yeti clone) that turned out very nice with 3711, thumbs up for giving it a shot. The worst outcome is that it's not a successful clone, but it will still taste damn good.

tennesseean_87 said:

I appreciate your jerkiness! I was thinking of mashing high. Maybe 1156-158, then.

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1156F is WAY too hot for a mash. It will likely evaporate all the water very quickly, then your grains (and mash tun) will burst into flames, taking your house with it.

Sorry... I'm a jerk too.

dogbar said:

If it's a consistent thing and your hydrometer checks out, maybe worth checking your thermometer?

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Yeah. I keep thinking the same thing since I'm using a cheapo Taylor digital probe thermo from Target. But I always leave it in for the boil and get 211 or 212. Of course, it could be off in the 150ish range, but I don't really have a way to test that.

At any rate, it kind of works out for me since I prefer a dryer beer over a sweeter one. I'm also looking into building an electric HERMS rig, so that'll solve the problem for good.

I have said it before, but this yeast is the best for bringing a stalled out Belgian down to terminal quick. If I even show the carboy the packet of 3711 the yeast sits up and says YES SIR! The gravity comes down and without the normal begging that goes on at night next to the carboy.

BW

B-Dub said:

I have said it before, but this yeast is the best for bringing a stalled out Belgian down to terminal quick. If I even show the carboy the packet of 3711 the yeast sits up and says YES SIR! The gravity comes down and without the normal begging that goes on a night next to the carboy.

BW

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Yup. I have a swollen smack pack going in a slightly thinned out wort from a 1.10 bsda that stalled at 1.040 with a 3 L starter of wlp540. My saison has a 1/2 gallon cake that will be the destroyer of a Bier De Garde in about one week. The grains are sitting in the corner of my basement crying out for mercy right now.

The saison is down to 1.000 right now and still bubbling slowly.

gr8shandini said:

But I always leave it in for the boil and get 211 or 212. Of course, it could be off in the 150ish range, but I don't really have a way to test that.

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No, but you can check its calibration at the opposite end of the temperature scale. Fill a large cup to the top with chipped ice. Add only just enough cold water to make an icy slurry. Stir it constantly with the thermometer and see where it bottoms out. If your freezing and boiling are only off by a degree or so, you can assume 150*F is accurate as well.

I'm planning on making a biere de garde, and all of the ingredients are on their way (including a pack each of 3724 and 3711). Without putting much thought into it, I ordered regular 12oz bottles (I just moved and the bottles I had didn't make it). I'll be using NB's Fizz drops for carbonating purposes, and wonder two things:

1. Will the fizz-drops (I'd assume they're the same as Cooper's Carbonation Drops) provide enough carbonation typical of style?

2. Should I buy a couple cases of belgian bottles, corks, wire bails, and a corker, or will the crown caps on typical bottles hold?

After reading through this entire thread, I'm really looking forward to this brew. It's the first recipe I've made myself.

BtaBrew said:

I'm planning on making a biere de garde, and all of the ingredients are on their way (including a pack each of 3724 and 3711). Without putting much thought into it, I ordered regular 12oz bottles (I just moved and the bottles I had didn't make it). I'll be using NB's Fizz drops for carbonating purposes, and wonder two things:

1. Will the fizz-drops (I'd assume they're the same as Cooper's Carbonation Drops) provide enough carbonation typical of style?

2. Should I buy a couple cases of belgian bottles, corks, wire bails, and a corker, or will the crown caps on typical bottles hold?

After reading through this entire thread, I'm really looking forward to this brew. It's the first recipe I've made myself.

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Your standard 12 oz amber bottles will do fine with a regular 26mm crown cap.
I would recommend to mix some dextrose to the right co2 volume and mix it in the bottling bucket rather than do the carb tabs or fizz drops. This will prove more consistent results and less chance of contamination as long as you stir well in the bucket when ready to bottle

No need for belgian bottles and corks unless you wanna spend more money on the bottles and corker.

BigRob said:

I made a stout (not a yeti clone) that turned out very nice with 3711, thumbs up for giving it a shot. The worst outcome is that it's not a successful clone, but it will still taste damn good.

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That's all I'm really shooting for anyway, since I've never had Yeti. Most of my beer experience was Sam Adams until I started brewing my own. I mashed at 156, didn't boil off enough water (3.5 gallons instead of 3) but hit 87% eff instead of 80%, so the only thing a little lacking will be the hops levels. I pitched a stepped up 1 qt starter at about 30 hours into 82* wort and sat it in my ferm chamber. I forgot how minimal lag time would be because I usually cold crash my starters, and was missing a half gallon of head space, so I woke up to a mess. At least it was down to 68 by that time. I'll try to keep it cool for a little longer and then let it go.

Haha, I'd slurp that right up it looks so good!

Well, I brewed up my Biere de garde, and then, as luck would have it, I had to leave on business for a week. When I returned, my fermentation fridge smelled of rotting vegetables. I can't begin to tell you how disappointed I was. I snuck down and put my nose directly on the airlock, and I smelled something different... namely beer and cloves. I sanitized my wine theif and hydrometer and pulled a sample. I took the sample out of the area and smelled it again, and I smelled only the beer and cloves, so I think the smell could be the fridge. It's an older fridge, and while I cleaned it, I didn't sanitize it, and it's been sitting at 74° for over a week now.

The sample measured around 1.036 (down from 1.080) and tasted like clovey bubble gum. It's still rather sweet, obviously, but at least now I know to stop considering tossing it.

I was having a tough time deciding on a good and different fall or winter beer to brew. We already have a Bridge Burner clone, Pumpkin Ale, and a Winter Warmer going, so i ended up buying Northern Brewer's Saison De Noel. It comes with the Wyeast 3711...I was a bit startled when I saw the fermenting temps of 70 to 95 degrees. So I checked a bunch of different threads and brewed away! not 12 hours into fermentation this yeast blew the lid off of my fermenting bucket! I have a make-shift blow-off hose that I attached and let it keep going.

It's been 17 days in my back room with a space heater keeping the room at or around 85 degrees, and this beast is still bubbling pretty well. I haven't taken a gravity reading to see where it's at, and my og reading was screwed because I was 3 sheets to the wind and took the reading before I aerated...it was at 1.114...haha...not the 1.070 it should have been, but oh well.

I'm going out of town for work today and plan on getting a reading when I get back. from what I've read, people have left this yeast going in temps like this for upwards of 5 weeks. I was thinking of racking at 3 weeks, which would be on Sunday. I'll update as I continue...

**EDIT**CORRECTION! I used Wyeast 3726

Just wanted to post a quick update in case anyone is interested. It finished at 1.010 after three weeks. I started the temp at 70° for 48 hours, then ramped it up slowly to 85°. It stayed stable at 1.010 for 5 days (checked once, then 5 days later with no change) so I bottled it up. A 70 point swing in SG equals 9.33% ABV, with about 20IBUs (Styrian Goldings hops). The sample tasted better than I expected (especially since it was the first recipe I've made) and I can't wait to taste the 'finished' product. The sample was a little sweet, no astringency, spicy, with notes of almost a juicy fruit flavor. I'm out of town on business again, but when I get home, it'll have been in bottles for about three-and-a-half weeks.

I thought I read somewhere in this thread about the smell when fermenting, but can't find it now. Anyone else notice a smell similar to rotting vegetation when it was fermenting, or is it just my nose?

BDSA update: As of last week it was still uncarbed and sweet. I uncapped bottles one at a time and used a sanitized syringe to squirt in a little mixture of Nottingham and yeast nutrient into each, then quickly re-capped. A handful seemed a little bit carbed, and I drank one warm (~65*). It was a bit less sickly sweet and the carbonation helped a good bit. Hopefully I didn't release to much pressure by opening. A few days later I noticed a larger amount of yeast sediment in the bottles, so I hope it worked. I may crack another in a few weeks.

tennesseean_87 said:

used a sanitized syringe to squirt in a little mixture of Nottingham and yeast nutrient into each, then quickly re-capped.

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unless your beer is 6+ months old, yeast activity/viability wasn't the problem. give a beer some time, temperature and sugar (or other priming agent) and it's pretty much guaranteed to carb. how long did you let it carb, and at what temp? big beers can take longer to carb but they will eventually carb. how much sugar did you add, so what batch size?

tennesseean_87 said:

Hopefully I didn't release to much pressure by opening.

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you released most if whatever pressure was in there. but if the beer is undercarbonated then there is still sugar in there. so give it time and warmth and it should carb. it won't be as carbonated as you originally intended since you've now lost some of that.

The beer was 4 weeks in the fermenter, then more than 3 months in the bottles at 70ish* with intermittent rolling to re-suspend the yeast. The Yeti clone I did (also a big beer) was carbed in 10 days. I know I released most of the pressure in the headspace, but what I meant to say was that they didn't just go flat immediately when I did so. I let off pressure, but hopefully enough carbonation remained in liquid until I got the cap on so that they will still have a nice carb level when the Notty finishes off the rest of the sugars. Most of them had only the slightest pressure and no perceptible carbonation.

It seems to me yeast health was a problem (first time for me), since there was hardly any sediment on the bottom of the bottles (meaning the yeast had not reproduced while eating the priming sugar) until fresh yeast were added, and then they multiplied enough to get a normal layer of sediment at the bottom in 4 days. This was also the only batch I've used oxygen caps on, so maybe that helped stunt yeast reproduction.

Hey guys, I'm planning on brewing up a "leftovers" IPA, using up a bunch of hops and other ingredients to make room for some new stuff in the freezer. I'm gonna use some 2nd generation 3711 just for fun. What temp would you ferment at? I know that this is completely out of style, but who cares, I want to try something different. Thanks!

tennesseean_87 said:

The beer was 4 weeks in the fermenter, then more than 3 months in the bottles at 70ish* with intermittent rolling to re-suspend the yeast.

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you definitely have something weird going on there. is there any chance you didn't add priming sugar? maybe accidentally used malto or lactose instead? yeast don't just up and die like that, they're hardy little creatures. 4 weeks in primary in nothing, should lots of yeast around to carb.

tennesseean_87 said:

It seems to me yeast health was a problem (first time for me), since there was hardly any sediment on the bottom of the bottles (meaning the yeast had not reproduced while eating the priming sugar) until fresh yeast were added, and then they multiplied enough to get a normal layer of sediment at the bottom in 4 days. This was also the only batch I've used oxygen caps on, so maybe that helped stunt yeast reproduction.

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there is plenty of yeast in suspension in the beer. the fact that you wrote "hardly any sediment on the bottom" means that there is enough in there to munch your priming sugar. the yeast that settles at the bottom was previously in suspensions and has dropped out. i'm pretty sure that yeast don't reproduce when they eat the priming sugar, there is no oxygen in a sealed bottle and they need o2 to reproduce. i've used oxygen caps on all my beers and never had a problem, so i doubt that it the cause of your issues.

This yeast is a gd introduction to saisons for beginners. It doesnt stall on fermentation like the dupont yeast, it finished DRY and produces a beer that is smooth and not too strong on the funk/farmhouse notes. I would have prefer stronger saison qualities but this yeast makes a v nice drinkable session saison.

that being said, i prefer wlp568. I'm slightly disappointed with the Wy3711 to be honest

Update on my BDSA:

It looks like the squirting in of some extra yeast did the trick. I'm not sure if it was the addition of yeast, nutrient, or oxygen that did it, but the bottles I've cracked have been much more carbed, if not quite as fully carbed as a standard beer. The perception of sweetness is down, probably from less simple sugar in the beer and the presence of carbonation.

weiht said:

This yeast is a gd introduction to saisons for beginners. It doesnt stall on fermentation like the dupont yeast, it finished DRY and produces a beer that is smooth and not too strong on the funk/farmhouse notes. I would have prefer stronger saison qualities but this yeast makes a v nice drinkable session saison.

that being said, i prefer wlp568. I'm slightly disappointed with the Wy3711 to be honest

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The first time I used it, I drank it in three-four weeks so I never got to the funk. What I've found is that a month or two in keg or bottle brings out much more of the farmhouse quality--earthy, a touch spicy, and a little funk in addition to the citrus character I get.

First time using this strain. I'm making a Saison du Buff clone for my brother for Christmas. Definitely not what I'm used to as it's day 7 of fermentation and it's still going. About 2-3 seconds per bubble. Sounds like this is pretty typical for 3711? It was never a crazy strong fermentation, just steady activity.

Anything to be concerned about? I'm going to take a grav today to see what's happening, but it just looks like this is a slow and steady yeast.

It finishes very low and dry without being too thin. I'd like to add some oats for saisons to give it body whilst finishing dry. This yeast however, finishes very dry and crisp as well without thinning too much, BUT it adds to the perceived bitterness. My 33 ibus wort that i split between a pale ale yeast and this came out pretty harsh on the bitterness due to the perceived bitterness and some gypsum added.

Having said that, I'm sure i would have gotten a better beer had I brewed a saison recipe to begin with. Nice citrusy notes from the yeast, anyone else got tartness? Just not very farmhouse funky.

SpacemanSpiff said:

First time using this strain. I'm making a Saison du Buff clone for my brother for Christmas. Definitely not what I'm used to as it's day 7 of fermentation and it's still going. About 2-3 seconds per bubble. Sounds like this is pretty typical for 3711? It was never a crazy strong fermentation, just steady activity.

Anything to be concerned about? I'm going to take a grav today to see what's happening, but it just looks like this is a slow and steady yeast.

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Normal fermentation.

Thanks! Good to know. Took a grav today and I'm only at 1.012. Still chugging away though so I guess it's just going to take time to get down to 1.008. Fermenting at around 66 probably isn't helping matters. The grav sample tasted fantastic though.

SpacemanSpiff said:

I guess it's just going to take time to get down to 1.008.

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how do you know it's going to get to 1.008? how do you know it won't keep on going? you can't trust a recipe or a website to tell you what your FG is going to be, especially not with this yeast. you gotta let it do its thing and leave it alone until it's reached what it says is FG (as indicated by 3 days of stable gravity readings). my saison finished at 1.005, a friend's went to 1.000.

sweetcell said:

how do you know it's going to get to 1.008? how do you know it won't keep on going? you can't trust a recipe or a website to tell you what your FG is going to be, especially not with this yeast. you gotta let it do its thing and leave it alone until it's reached what it says is FG (as indicated by 3 days of stable gravity readings). my saison finished at 1.005, a friend's went to 1.000.

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Good point. I'm so used to US-05 since I use it for most of my beers and its like clockwork. First time using a Saison yeast and they're definitely on their own schedule. I was hoping to bottle on Friday, but the bugs seem to have a different plan.

The 1.008 came from the recipe. Although, the krausen has dropped considerably the last day or two so it does look like they're starting to wind down. Just have to be patient I suppose.

SpacemanSpiff said:

Good point. I'm so used to US-05 since I use it for most of my beers and its like clockwork. First time using a Saison yeast and they're definitely on their own schedule. I was hoping to bottle on Friday, but the bugs seem to have a different plan.

The 1.008 came from the recipe. Although, the krausen has dropped considerably the last day or two so it does look like they're starting to wind down. Just have to be patient I suppose.

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Don't be surprised if you go below 1.008, As others have mentioned this yeast will do what this yeast will do which is dry way out. Both times I have used this yeast I hit 1.001

SpacemanSpiff said:

Thanks! Good to know. Took a grav today and I'm only at 1.012. Still chugging away though so I guess it's just going to take time to get down to 1.008. Fermenting at around 66 probably isn't helping matters. The grav sample tasted fantastic though.

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One thing to keep in mind is this yeast will put off a lot of the saison funk and flavors at higher temps. I'm sure what you will get at these lower temps. I know people that have fermented tat 90+ degrees. My summer saison I ferment at around 85 degrees and just let it go however high it will go. No control.

In.

Just brewed 10 gallons. Over night chillin. Pitching in morning!

I brewed a batch last weekend (1-19-2013):

OG 1.051 (82% Beligan Pils, 9% White Wheat, 9% Cane Sugar)
Hops 1oz Northern Brewer@60, 1oz Willamette @5, 1oz Styrian Golding@0
Pitched 1 smack pack of 3711, activated night before and put on a stirplate with 2 cups of pre boil wort for about 4 hours

Day 0:temp 68 OG 1.051-
Day 1:temp 70 High Krausen (about 1.5 inches)
Day 2 temp 72 Gravity 1.030 (Tastes sweet and banana esters are strong, very fruity, Krausen has largely subsided)
Day 3 temp 73 Krausen is gone, looks about like a blue moon 20 minutes after the pour at RT, I'm worried...
Day 4 temp 75 Gravity 1.010 (Still banana-y, still fruity, SWMBO calls it barley juice, looks like a milkshake
Day 5 temp 77
Day 6 temp 80 Gravity 1.006 (Banana is subsiding, still tastes fruity though, at this point I am resigned to have created a wit)
Day 7 temp 80
Day 8 temp 80 Gravity 1.004, now is starting to have a nicer saison profile, banana is gone, still not 'spicy' but it is nicely balanced, without a better description, it tastes like a muted saison. Amazing on the alcohol though, it is 6% and SWMBO remarked that it was a low alcohol beer. I am now thoroughly excited at getting this carbed and drank. I unplugged the ferm-wrap at this point.

Notes: I have a ferm-wrap connected to a Johnson controller with the probe taped to the carboy and covered by a zip-lock filled with blow in insulation, taped tight over the probe with duct tape, differential on the Johnson set at 2 degrees. So the temps listed above are actually the low end of a 2 degree fluctuation.

Also, I got the chance to chat up Stevek Pauwels and he said that they do their Tank 7, which is a favorite of mine at 66 degrees throughout and that will keep things on the spicier side of the yeast, which was news to me, and might be my approach next time. Although it should be noted that it is their own yeast strain. For reference, they use the same yeast on their Saison (Tank 7) as their Quad (Sixth Glass) which have totally different yeast flavor profiles, it's amazing what a belgian yeast will do with temps.

OK, I love this yeast.

Previously used it to brew my favorite ever Saison this summer. Tried to replicate the recipe with a brew on January 1st, went well - 5 gallon batch, mashed at 150ish, OG 1.060. After the first few days of fermentation at 65-70, I kept it in my bathroom with a space heater on, keeping the ambient temp in the 75-80 range.

It has now been 4.5 weeks in primary (I generally don't secondary and just bottle after 3-4 weeks, unless dryhopping), and I'm ready to bottle, but this beer isn't! It's still bubbling every minute or two. Just wow. Think I may transfer to secondary soon, since I don't want bottle bombs.

Still bubbling regularly after 4+ weeks?? That's a first for me!