Odds on the John Palmer and Colin Kaminsky "Water" book...

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mchrispen

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With utmost respect to AJ and Martin here, I am wondering if we should open up some odds on disagreements between the book and the excellent advice here in the forum? Or at least, will it increase the number of water chemistry questions?

I am really hoping that the book truly reflects current water chemistry knowledge and treatment standards, and debunks some of the prevalent thinking around chloride/sulfate ratios, etc. But also doesn't read like an advanced Chemistry textbook. My copy should arrive (according to Amazon) later this week - so we will see.

In the infamous words of Walter White, "chemistry is about transformation..."

As a side note - thanks again to AJ, Martin, Yooper and nameless others that have helped me get on top of my brewing water issues. I am still learning but I owe you all a pint!
 
Is it shipping this week now? Sweet. I got this book (along with yeast and hops) for Christmas last year.
 
I just ordered one this morning along with the one for yeast and hops. I am hoping it help me learn a lot more about water chemistry.
 
I "pre-ordered" this a couple weeks ago and thought it was supposed to ship by now. Any idea when it is really going to ship?
 
Matt, go for it! In my opinion, there is only very minor divergence between what I've been trying the convey and the book contents. The biggest area of disagreement might be some of the recommended ion ranges, but otherwise we did arrive at consensus.
 
Both AJ and Martin were intimately involved in the production of this book as they served as technical editors. Thus John and Colin were well aware of anything they wrote that either Martin or AJ disagreed with. With respect to my comments: when they were based on simple scientific fact they were accepted. When they were matters of philosophy (e.g. is RA really a good metric for home brewers to be concerned with) they weren't always. But remember that it is John's and Colin's book - not A.J.'s or Martins.

Some of the newer ideas are just that - new - and as such I expect that our perspectives will grow as we become more familiar with them.

Will there be strong disagreements between what is in the book and what you have seen here? I don't think so. Will there be discussion? I hope so.
 
Oh.. wouldn't it be spectacular if the abstract for the book read like this:
"The authors consulted with the leading brewing water chemists far and wide and eventually determined that homebrewers interested in expertly tailoring their water should simply add a tablespoon of 5.2 to the mash per 5 gallons of water. Disclosure: this work was funded by 5-Star Chemicals."

This is the ONLY book in the 'Malt, hops etc., series' I am interested in buying.
 
Picked up a copy tonight.

Oh, I'm so spoiled, living a half a mile from Northern Brewer.
 
Mine shipped from Amazon a few days ago and I'm expecting it tomorrow. I too have trepidations about how this will compare to my current approach to water chemistry which I came to from these forums. It's like when I bought "The Compleat Meadmaker", the bible of mead making, only to find that it has nothing on staggered nutrient additions. Shocked my newbie meadmaking brain into pushing it to the bottom of my reading list.
 
Book arrived Friday. Read through the great Foreword by AJ, as well as the sleeve comments by both AJ and Martin. I am great full ya'll were involved!

Thumbing through the index, discussions on RA, and on Chloride/Sulfate ratios. Actually very interested in the waste water sections towards the end of the book as well.

Now just too decide if I should read or watch the Broncos...
 
Mine showed up early this week. With a baby on the way and a major reorg at work, I doubt I'll be getting through it before the holidays.


Hearing that they stopped and took the time to get input from AJ gives me restored confidence; I was afraid there for a while.


Adam
 
Mine shipped from Amazon a few days ago and I'm expecting it tomorrow. I too have trepidations about how this will compare to my current approach to water chemistry which I came to from these forums. It's like when I bought "The Compleat Meadmaker", the bible of mead making, only to find that it has nothing on staggered nutrient additions. Shocked my newbie meadmaking brain into pushing it to the bottom of my reading list.

Pretty sure I learned about SNAs from The Compleat Meadmaker...
 
I ordered mine through Amazon and got it last Saturday...seems like a great book so far...even got the equivalent AHA pricing.
 
Whats the verdict on the water book? Is there anything new that the world needs to know about? I watched the brewingTV ep with Palmer and seems like the same stuff from How To Brew (ie residual alkalinity). Does he talk about 5.2 stabilizer? Does he reprint the table of classic brewing city water profiles?
 
gbx,

I am about halfway through. Currently deep in detail about RA and methods for decarbonation of liquor. I think the description of residual alkalinity is clearer than anything I have read before, but not sure I could pass an exam on it yet. I am finding it a really easy read at least - save some of the more detailed reaction breakdowns. I am not sure how much of that is Kaminsky versus Palmer writing styles. I laughed a bit - there is a funny bill of rights bit about brewer independence from Reinheitsgebot and using minerals and chemicals to make beer.

I hope to finish over the weekend.
 
It's pretty detailed and covers a lot of science, but I'm not sure how useful it really is for those who already know how to hit a mash pH and create a mineral profile. I really hoped it would add to the knowledge base but I'm not seeing much of that. Not done reading though. Found it a little peculiar how little "acidulated malt" comes up (had to look hard to find it!)
 
Martin,

Having concentrated intensely on the trees in this book as we have done it will probably be some time before we can see the forest. I just had a look at the 'Controlling Alkalinity' chapter and acid malt didn't even get a mention. Nor is it in the index as Acid Malt, Sauermalz, acidulated malt. It is listed under Malt, Sauer but following that lead only informs you that it is made by adding lactic acid or sauergut to malt and that it is, consequently, even more acidic than colored malts.

I think the guy has a point. Note for 2nd Edition.
 
Thanks aj, that was my point.

As a practical brewer looking for the useful lessons, I skipped to the first example, "Brewing an American Pale Ale" in the Adjusting Water section. This example was a great idea. But to reduce the mash pH, he first walks through TWO options of adjusting minerals to hit the target alkalinity. AAAGGGHHH!!! This improper thinking is a sad remnant of his obsolete RA nomograph mentality. (I maintain we should address pH by adding acid/acid malt, and treat mineral content as a taste issue, but sadly I don't think Palmer takes this approach.) Then his 3rd option describes adding sulfuric acid! That's a pretty uncommon and potentially dangerous technique.

So unfortunately there's not much simplified discussion of how we as homebrewers can use this info. Overall it leaves the impression that you should try to hit your mash pH with mineral adjustments or liquid acid additions (see also App. B), neither of which are great advice for a homebrewer IMHO.

p.s. aj, please don't take this as criticism. Only intended as constructive commentary & feedback.
 
The first mention that I have come across or noticed, was in the "adjusting water for style" section which falls after the Residual Alkalinity section. It is mentioned as a method practiced by German brewers to address the Renheitsgebot - but briefly. I suppose as this section is primarily focused on ion additions and some (I believe) excellent information on the flavor profiles of these additions, it is passed over. This, along with the Declaration of Non-Adherence, tips the bias toward modern, not traditional brewing principles. I have no beef with this personally, but some people who wish to brew to historic (where possible) guidelines and procedure may be disappointed.

SpeedYellow: I cannot come to your same conclusion, yet. A good deal of information is being presented about the flavor thresholds of acids and minerals (currently in Chapt 7). Since a specific process recommendation has yet to been declared, I am assuming P&K are simply being thorough, and exploring process and chemistry - rather than taking a more "recipe" standard approach. BTW I agree with you relative to adjusting water for flavor first, then making accommodations to pH.
 
I finished reading "Water" today (I skipped most of chapter 10 since I don't find waste water treatment as pertinent to my homebrewing). Before reading the book I have been a user of Bru'n Water and have adjusted my mash and sparge water with phosphoric acid based on my recipes and current water report. Has reading this book significantly changed how I brew? No. Has this book significantly changed how I think about brewing water? Yes. I think that I have a better understanding of why my water and grain bills give the results that they do and enough details were provided that I could write up my own basic brewing water calculator if I desired.

For homebrewers who are only interested in hitting mash pH and are not interested in the "details," this book may be of less value. I would recommend using up to date analysis of their source water (or building from RO) and using one of the available calculators like Bru'n Water.

SpeedyYellow: I have to disagree. Adjusting minerals and acid additions (phosphoric or lactic) are solid ways for homebrewers to adjust water. For most homebrewers, I think acidulated malt is an inferior option to liquid acid additions. Among the benefits of liquid acid additions: generally cheaper, can be used in sparge water, and does not require modification of grain bills.
 
This improper thinking is a sad remnant of his obsolete RA nomograph mentality. (I maintain we should address pH by adding acid/acid malt, and treat mineral content as a taste issue, but sadly I don't think Palmer takes this approach.)

I think he is coming around to this way of thinking but slowly. He still believes in the RA approach and in discussions with him during the editing phase he made it quite clear that RA would be given significant space.

Then his 3rd option describes adding sulfuric acid! That's a pretty uncommon and potentially dangerous technique.
It is actually quite common in the UK where commercial and home brewers use a blend of sulfuric and hydrochloric acids sold as Carbonate Reducing Solution (CRS). A brewer must set pH and then may make flavor ion adjustments. Judicious use of hydrochloric and sulfuric acid can do both. I never advise home brewers to do that because of potential safety problems but remember this book is aimed at the commercial brewer as well.

So unfortunately there's not much simplified discussion of how we as homebrewers can use this info. Overall it leaves the impression that you should try to hit your mash pH with mineral adjustments or liquid acid additions (see also App. B), neither of which are great advice for a homebrewer IMHO.

There are lots of ways to accomplish these goals. I don't personally feel that mineral addition is a very good way to control mash pH because it takes so much calcium to offset a fairly modest amount of alkalinity that the resulting beer is going to be laden with sulfate and chloride ions. I don't personally feel that throwing acid at alkalinity is the best thing to do either for the same reason. Both methods essentially give you the same result: anions of the acid(s) or salt(s) as the calcium presumably precipitates when salts are used. But it is a valid method if you are happy with the resulting ion content.

A popular alternative is to use phosphoric acid. The phosphate ions seem to be quite flavor neutral and whatever their flavor contribution might be it is going to be swamped by the malt's phosphate. Plus it is available at any LHBS in food grade and in concentration where it isn't going to hurt any one.

p.s. aj, please don't take this as criticism. Only intended as constructive commentary & feedback.
Don't worry about that. It isn't my book. I didn't write it (except for the Foreward). I would have done a lot of things differently and discussed many of those with John and Colin. In some cases they followed what I suggested and in some they didn't. I'm sure Martin would say the same.
 
AJ hits it on the head. It isn't our book. However, my hat is off to Colin and especially John for taking the time and effort to write it. I won't speak for AJ, but I certainly don't have the time to devote to creating such a work.

Mineral addition is a poor way to achieve a mash pH, but the highly mineralized conditions for a good pale ale are an outlier. It may be one of the only cases where mineral additions might be suited for adjusting mash pH. For most other beer styles, acid in some form is far better for pH adjustment. I agree that acid malt can be suitable, but I still don't like the degree of imprecision it can impart to the acidification process. Forgive me, I'm an anal-retentive engineer. The reinheitsgebot is a personal preference for some brewers, just like kosher, halal, or vegan is to others. To each, his own.

The point that rpkincaid makes regarding sparging water acidification is a component that should not be overlooked. While acid malt can solve problems in the mash, high alkalinity sparging water could still ruin your brew. Pre-boiling the sparging water can help out some waters, but acidification with a liquid acid is much easier.
 
The reinheitsgebot is a personal preference for some brewers, just like kosher, halal, or vegan is to others. To each, his own.

I don't really understand the anti-reinheitsgebot thing in the homebrew scene. The same people who wear the "reinheitsgebot is a 4 letter word" t shirts are usually the same people who subscribe to strict BJCP style definitions and look down on non-malt adjuncts like corn and rice. No one has ever complained that my dunkels had adjusted water and were force carbed but I have been told my dry hopped ordinary bitter was not to style:)

Ok, so he is still all about the residual alkalinity. How about the classic brewing cities? Does the book still persist the idea that Dublin's water profile is great for brewing stouts? He has mentioned it a in a few recent interviews.
 
I just read through that section and don't recall Dublin being called out.

There is a list of recommended profiles for beer styles, and a list of city profiles. It is preceded with several paragraphs of "take this with a grain of salt" qualifications. I found the case studies interesting, bit a bit confusing as the calculations seems to spin toward different RA models... And the "Brew a different beer" option that seems to be counter to the book's purpose. The profiles seem more or less consistent with the discussions here.

They invoked the sulfate/chloride ratio as only as a guideline, not a hard rule. Clearly stated that the actual amounts and concentration are more important.

Hey I did see a specific recommendation to use Bru'n water, rather than Palmer's water spreadsheet!
 
I don't understand why people would be perturbed that there is no focus on aciduated malt. Is there any difference between using aciduated malt and adding acid into mash yourself? (assuming you can accurately measure acid to the nearest 0.5 ml)

In my mind it is better to focus on the first principle which is the acid itself and not worry about the grain coming along for the ride in aciduated malt. Am I missing something?
 
Yes, you are missing a small difference. Sauermalz is a specialty grain. As such it is more than an source of acid but also a source of nuanced flavor enhancement when used in the light - medium lagers where it finds most use. Some people like this and others don't even notice it. So there is, as with so many things in brewing, a matter of personal preference with respect to whether you want these flavors or not. Then there is also a matter of personal preference with respect to which is easier. To use the acid option you must calculate the amount of acid required, locate the bottle of acid, find a graduated cyiinder, measure out the acid, add it to the water, rinse the cylinder, put cylinder and acid bottle away.

In my brewery the grains, certainly the specialty ones, are in stacked Vittles Vaults with the side opening. There is a drywall paste bucket on a scale into which I weigh out the specialty grains. Acidification is a matter of mentally calculating 2 or 3 % of the total weight of the grain bill (which even I can do in my head), pressing the tare button on the scale and dribbling that amount of sauermalz into the bucket. The way I am set up using acid malt is much easier - its KISS. OK, I save 5 minutes but my brew day is as 'short' as it is because I save lots of 5 minute chunks with little tricks like this. And I like the flavor effects.

Then Rheinheitsgebot: Again largely a matter of personal preference. There is certainly some appeal to some people in being able to say "This beer was made in the traditional way adhering to old German Purity laws." Great marketing. Similar to the appeal of 'green' beers, Kosher beers and so on, beers following grandpa's original pre-prohibition recipe etc. An let's be honest, we 'market' to ourselves and the people we give our beer to. But Rheinheitsgebot or any other set of strictly limiting rules as to what one may or may not do in his brewing is limiting. It is interesting that the Kohlbach paper which so much influenced John Palmer WRT RA is really an appeal to allow German brewers to use mineral acid for pH adjustment. You can read it at http://www.wetnewf.org/pdfs/Brewing_articles/KolbachPaper.pdf but you'll have to read through nearly to the end.
 
I don't understand why people would be perturbed that there is no focus on aciduated malt. Is there any difference between using aciduated malt and adding acid into mash yourself? (assuming you can accurately measure acid to the nearest 0.5 ml)...
Who's perturbed? It was merely noted as "little peculiar".

As we all know, it's just personal preferences to use liquid acids or acid malt in the mash. But acid malt has very real advantages to the homebrewer, and is quite common, so it's a little odd to mostly dismiss it, especially when bizarre solutions like mineral additions (and sulfuric acid) are suggested instead.

And just so you don't accuse me of being a reinheitsgebot fanatic, I do use lactic acid in my sparge water and force carb my beer. :D
 
Haha, sorry I misinterpreted your comment. I did not mean to offend and not trying to call you out as a Reinheitsgebotist.

AJ, your style and KISS responses make sense, thank you for input. I did not realize aciduated malt is a speciality malt with a unique flavor and killing process. All this discussion still leaves me with two questions in my head:

Does anyone know if aciduated malt is treated with acid by maltster? If so, why is it okay for maltster to add acid to process, but not for the brewer.

Also is there a "Reinheitsgebot-way" of reducing pH in sparge water to prevent tannin extraction? Since I treat my sparge water with acid, to me, it is just as easy to add acid to mash. I appreciate the fact that "easy" is a relative term and dependent on brewer and/or his/her setup.
 
But acid malt ... and is quite common, so it's a little odd to mostly dismiss it, especially when bizarre solutions like mineral additions (and sulfuric acid) are suggested instead.

I tend to divide brewing in my mind into German and British (pushing Belgian brewing off to the side as 'eccentric'). In German brewing the use of sauermalz and sauergut (wort fermented with lactobacillus) are very common. In British brewing the use of acid is quite common. In Germany we have, thus, implicit use of lactic acid while in the UK it tends to be hydrochloric and sulfuric.

In modern craft brewing it is becoming quite common to use phosphoric acid, because of its flavor neutral quality, to combat at least the water's proton deficit if not the base malt's.

I have to agree that I think sauermalz and techniques for using it in brewing should have gotten more attention. They do mention it for brewing Pilsner beer and even specify 2% as a typical addition but the 1% per unit of pH rule is not there and ought to be. Keep in mind, however, that one cannot think of everything when writing a book nor is there room for everything that the author thinks he might like to include. And then schedule pressure often results in some edges getting knocked off.
 
Does anyone know if aciduated malt is treated with acid by maltster? If so, why is it okay for maltster to add acid to process, but not for the brewer.

It can be made in two ways (at least). In the first malt is moistened, covered and held at about 47 °C. Lactobacilli on the husk grow and ferment some of the sugars in the malt. The malt is then dried. In the second wort is prepared, innoculated with Lactobacilli (throw in a handfull of malt) and held at 47°C. The lactos ferment the sugars in the wort which is then sprayed onto base (or other malt) and then that is dried. In either case the acid is produced by natural fermetation. Remember that Reinheitsgebot only mention Gersten, Hopfen and Wasser. Nothing about Hefe as opposed to lactos for fermentation.

Also is there a "Reinheitsgebot-way" of reducing pH in sparge water to prevent tannin extraction?
Yes, you could use sauergut. The Reinheitsgebot has now been replaced by the Biersteuergesetz and I believe that says that one can use any acid produced by natural fermentation in the brewery. As, of course, you are not required to follow either of these but may want to follow the spirit of the Reinheitsgebot I think the use of sauergut or steeping some sauermalz in the sparge water would comply. Decarbonating the water by other means and/or just monitoring pH and terminating sparge when it approaches 6 also work.
 

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